Anonymous, "Inbetweener", Engelb Vielma quietly making his case for future SS consideration- Can he be the "Bridge" to the next decade at the position?

[jokin]

 

While Twins fans fans have openly speculated, and the the Twins FO and manager have maneuvered 4 options for their open SS position- both in and out of the lineup- and up and down 3 levels of the system, there is one guy who sits somewhere, somewhat anonymously, right in the middle of the Twins' SS Field of Dreams.  While the immediate future for staffing the SS position is between the aforementioned 4 guys, the Twins also have 3 guys in the lower minors who offer great promise if they can stick at the position- Gordon, Palacio and Javier.  The latter 3 offer potential impact at some point early in the next decade.

 

But what about the guy at High A? The guy whose full name reminds one of holding the worst Scrabble hand ever? The guy that Mike Berardino tapped as one of the top two guys to crack the Top 15 after this season?:

 

I’ll give you two names: SS Engelb Vielma and LHP Cameron Booser. Vielma is the best defensive infielder in the system and showed some potential with the bat last year.

 

 

And Berardino isn't the only expert who considers Vielma the Twins' best SS glove. Jim Callis had this to say:

 

Field:  65 on 20-80 scale

 

Vielma does everything well at shortstop, with a plus arm and plus range. He can make routine plays and highlight reel plays equally with aplomb. All of his outstanding defensive tools play up because he has tremendous natural instincts at the position. 

Vielma's glove is good enough to get him to the big leagues. Whether he's an everyday shortstop or a utility type is largely dependent on his offensive game evolving over time.

 

 

That 65 rating compares favorably to his 3 closest rivals:

 

Gordon- 60

Polanco- 50

Santana- 50

 

The key to the whole analysis and ceiling speculation is whether or not Vielma's bat can develop enough to earn everyday consideration at some point by the Twins.  

 

Vielma's start to the season at Fort Myers was far less than encouraging-

 

191 PA .187/.224/.228/.452 Slash 4.2% BB% 18.8% K% 37 wRC+

 

But I was pleasantly surpirsed when I found out what he's done since then:

 

201 PA.353/.404/.393/..798 Slash 8.5% BB% 11.8% K% 145 wRC+ 

 

In addition to a complete turnaround at the plate over the last 2 months or so, he has become a major threat on the basepaths, with 27 Stolen Bases.  He appears destined to finish out 2015 with 30-something SBs, and prior to this, he has never had more than 10 SBs in any single season.  His measurable defensive numbers are all up this year, even over his previous excellent rates. He just turned 21 in June... despite his youth, could he start fitting into the Twins' plans starting in the 2nd half of 2016, and going into 2017?  I've always figured him as a future strong utility guy, he will probably never have the pop at the plate as some of his other rivals, but I'll ask again: Can his superior glove, plus his new-found speed on the basepaths and evidently-improving hitting potential at the bottom of the Twins batting order propel his starter-status higher going forward?

[Thrylos]

Anonymous?   Not that much

 

Was 20th in a Twins' offseason prospect list.  And I think that he cracked a top 10 list some years ago.

 

Got a full profile there, about a year old, but I still think on target.    His bat will be the deciding factor.  As of now he looks a lot like Pedro Florimon or Rey Ordonez.

 

 

[John Kelsey]

I like Vielma a lot and it's good to see him finally get some love on here. I don't think he's too far behind Nick Gordon. Both are pretty much locks to stick at short, can steal 25-30 bases, and need to gain about 30 lbs and improve their hitting. 

 

I still think Gordon is the better hitter and prospect but Vielma is the better fielder and isn't far behind. 

[jokin]

 

Anonymous?   Not that much

 

Was 20th in a Twins' offseason prospect list.  And I think that he cracked a top 10 list some years ago.

 

Got a full profile there, about a year old, but I still think on target.    His bat will be the deciding factor.  As of now he looks a lot like Pedro Florimon or Rey Ordonez.

 

I get what you're saying, credit to you and a few others who dig a little deeper on the Twins prospect list.  But Vielma has to be one of the least discussed future major league options by Twins fans in general.

 

And if his profile remains as a future potential Pedro Florimon, there's good reason why he's not discussed much.  There's a little bit of flukiness in Vielma's numbers over the last 2 months, but if he's actually turned a corner at the plate a bit, and can please Molitor enough with his bunting and baserunning acumen, he might represent the best option to put out there at SS for a few years as a defensive buffer while Sano hones and refines his craft at 3B.

[Mike Sixel]

Given where he is now, and their love of Santana and Polanco, and their blocking him from being promoted.....he is at leat 1.5 years away......

[TheDean]

 

Given where he is now, and their love of Santana and Polanco, and their blocking him from being promoted.....he is at leat 1.5 years away......

 

I wonder if that could change pretty quickly though (obviously dependent on Vielema's hitting).

The writing has to be on the wall at this point: Polanco is a 2B. Not enough arm for the left side. He'll be a great trade chip or good depth at 2B.

Santana got his tryout. This year's tryout was almost as long as Hicks's in his rookie year, and he was sub-rookie Hicks and sub-Florimon on offense. No question that he's no Florimon on defense, though not to the level of Polanco's extreme woes.

It shouldn't take much to shoot up the ladder with legit fielding and bat, with emphasis on plate discipline. ...probably

[Seth Stohs]

Yeah, Vielma is definitely not anonymous. He's not in the prospect category as Gordon, Javier or Polanco at all. But everyone knows about his defense. He was named the top Twins minor league defensive infielder last year. I saw him in Cedar Rapids last year and was very impressed. Saw him this spring too.

 

If he can added 25-30 pounds and develop any pop, he's got a shot. He is what James Beresford was for many years... unheralded by many, but a great glove who "just needed to add some weight." 

 

Gordon, however, is also an excellent defender. Having Vielma at 66 and Gordon at 60 works for me. Very good, both of them. Very smooth. 

[jokin]

 

Yeah, Vielma is definitely not anonymous. He's not in the prospect category as Gordon, Javier or Polanco at all. But everyone knows about his defense. He was named the top Twins minor league defensive infielder last year. I saw him in Cedar Rapids last year and was very impressed. Saw him this spring too.

 

If he can added 25-30 pounds and develop any pop, he's got a shot. He is what James Beresford was for many years... unheralded by many, but a great glove who "just needed to add some weight." 

 

Gordon, however, is also an excellent defender. Having Vielma at 66 and Gordon at 60 works for me. Very good, both of them. Very smooth. 

 

Well, I depicted him as "anonymous" in the sense that most Twins fans have either never heard of him, and of those that have, have little to no expectations for him to be in the mix for a starting SS role.  On management side, Polanco is the one who has the buzz for being the current comer in the org at the position, which will leave Vielma with little to no shot.

 

Seth, do you forsee the plan forward for Vielma and Gordon is to finish out the seasons where they're at, and then starting out in business-as-usual fashion in 2016, with Vielma to be the primary SS at Chattanooga and Gordon the primary SS at Ft Myers?

 

Vielma is about 1.5 years older, with 2 more years of professional experience.  He's on the 2017 ETA list, while Gordon's ETA is scheduled for 2019.  Does the projected progression fit such that the Twins might give Vielma a legit shot at the MLB SS job for a couple seasons?  Is his glove an obvious enough upgrade over Polanco, Santana and Escobar that he could supplant one or two or three of them in the interim of the arrival of Gordon (especially with respect to possibly moving Sano to full-time at 3rd and having a super-strong SS immediately to his left?)?

 

Has Gordon shown enough for the Twins to opt for him as one of their two eligible players below AA to go to the AFL this fall? (In which case, is it possible they forsee Gordon playing 2 MiLB levels in 2016 and possibly moving up the ETA timetable?) 

[HitInAPinch]

If nothing else, it's nice to see some decent MiLB depth at the position.

[jokin]

 

Given where he is now, and their love of Santana and Polanco, and their blocking him from being promoted.....he is at leat 1.5 years away......

 

Yeah, and if that continues to happen (seems likely), they probably don't even want to bother building a Vielma "bridge" for likely just parts of two seasons (2017 and 2018) in anticipation of a potential Gordon ascendancy.

[ashbury]

Along the same lines as a Scrabble rack, I speculated a while ago that he could team up with Etaoin Shrdlu as our double play combo of the future.

 

He doesn't show much sign of ever being more than purely a singles hitter, and he struggled the first part of this season to be even that. But he seems to learn, so I hold out pretty significant hope for him. The glove is apparently a sure thing so he'll go exactly as far as the bat takes him.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Well, I depicted him as "anonymous" in the sense that most Twins fans have either never heard of him, and of those that have, have little to no expectations for him to be in the mix for a starting SS role.  On management side, Polanco is the one who has the buzz for being the current comer in the org at the position, which will leave Vielma with little to no shot.

 

Seth, do you forsee the plan forward for Vielma and Gordon is to finish out the seasons where they're at, and then starting out in business-as-usual fashion in 2016, with Vielma to be the primary SS at Chattanooga and Gordon the primary SS at Ft Myers?

 

Vielma is about 1.5 years older, with 2 more years of professional experience.  He's on the 2017 ETA list, while Gordon's ETA is scheduled for 2019.  Does the projected progression fit such that the Twins might give Vielma a legit shot at the MLB SS job for a couple seasons?  Is his glove an obvious enough upgrade over Polanco, Santana and Escobar that he could supplant one or two or three of them in the interim of the arrival of Gordon (especially with respect to possibly moving Sano to full-time at 3rd and having a super-strong SS immediately to his left?)?

 

Has Gordon shown enough for the Twins to opt for him as one of their two eligible players below AA to go to the AFL this fall? (In which case, is it possible they forsee Gordon playing 2 MiLB levels in 2016 and possibly moving up the ETA timetable?) 

 

I'd be surprised, though not shocked, if Gordon went to the AFL.

 

Vielma getting a "legit" shot at a shortstop job is hard to predict. If Polanco improves defensively over the next year, then Vielma likely doesn't get a shot. If Polanco doesn't improve and Santana isn't good, then they may have to grab someone in F/A, and it'll depend on how much they give that person in terms of years.

 

I think they both stay where they are the rest of the season. Neither is putting up numbers that jump out as must-promote. 

 

I'd say they both move up one level next year with Polanco at Rochester (or the Twins).

[twinssouth]

Saw him in ST in infield drills, the guy is like a vacuum cleaner out there, drawing oos and aws from the fans and coaches. Great to see him turn the corner with his bat.

[Shane Wahl]

 

I get what you're saying, credit to you and a few others who dig a little deeper on the Twins prospect list.  But Vielma has to be one of the least discussed future major league options by Twins fans in general.

 

And if his profile remains as a future potential Pedro Florimon, there's good reason why he's not discussed much.  There's a little bit of flukiness in Vielma's numbers over the last 2 months, but if he's actually turned a corner at the plate a bit, and can please Molitor enough with his bunting and baserunning acumen, he might represent the best option to put out there at SS for a few years as a defensive buffer while Sano hones and refines his craft at 3B.

 

I don't think the Florimon comparison works as Vielma doesn't seem like a flashy-yes, routine-sometimes-not kind of defensive shortstop. Seems like the most solid overall defensively. He just has to hit ok and the jury is still out there. I am certainly bumping him up some from his current 37 on my list because he has gone off in the past two weeks, but there are still concerns. The claim I make in that list is that if the Twins want a defensive shortstop in 2017, Vielma will be the guy. Otherwise it is 2018 for him. I can't imagine things are going to go well initially at AA with the stick, but who knows?

[jokin]

 

I don't think the Florimon comparison works as Vielma doesn't seem like a flashy-yes, routine-sometimes-not kind of defensive shortstop. Seems like the most solid overall defensively. He just has to hit ok and the jury is still out there. I am certainly bumping him up some from his current 37 on my list because he has gone off in the past two weeks, but there are still concerns. The claim I make in that list is that if the Twins want a defensive shortstop in 2017, Vielma will be the guy. Otherwise it is 2018 for him. I can't imagine things are going to go well initially at AA with the stick, but who knows?

 

I don't know if you've seen Vielma or not, but are Callis and Berardino barking up the wrong tree in suggesting that he could potentially penetrate some Twins Top 15 lists in the next 8 months?  

 

Do you have a feel for where Vielma would be on your own list should he continue his torrid hitting over the course of the current season?

[clutterheart]

Many systems have a few light hitting good defense shortstops. Unless his hitting improves, his cieling would be a Doug Bernier type of career. Which isn't bad at all.

[mudcat14]

Not that I'm comparing the two, but HOF'er Ozzie Smith was a career .262 hitter who didn't even eclipse that mark until season #8. It's a different era for SS's now, but stellar fielders can still be vital regulars without being Silver Sluggers.

[jokin]

 

Many systems have a few light hitting good defense shortstops. Unless his hitting improves, his cieling would be a Doug Bernier type of career. Which isn't bad at all.

 

Your take is definitely closer to mine, but very far away from Berardino and Callis- who actually think of him in the realm of an emerging potential Top 15 prospect. How many guys who project as "utility types" get this grade?  This type of thinking would translate closer up the ranking spectrum towards a Greg Gagne ceiling than a Doug Bernier ceiling.  Which not only wouldn't be bad at all, it would be awesome.

 

During, and over Gagne's 13 year career, he graded out as the 4th best defensive SS, behind only Ripken, and the two Ozzies, Smith and Guillen.  And he was rated 10th overall SS in terms of fWAR- with a slashline of .254/.302/.382/(.684).  If the last 200+ PAs for Vielma aren't just a mirage, I think it's reasonable to hope for something between Gagne and Bernier in terms of slashline/UZR for a major league career.

 

[jokin]

 

Not that I'm comparing the two, but HOF'er Ozzie Smith was a career .262 hitter who didn't even eclipse that mark until season #8. It's a different era for SS's now, but stellar fielders can still be vital regulars without being Silver Sluggers.

 

Sorry mudcat, I was composing while you were posting.  I too doubt that Engelb=Ozzie is on the table here, but your point is still well-taken.  As I pointed out in my post, if Vielma can be 3/4s of a Greg Gagne for the Twins, he would be very valuable, indeed, especially anchoring the left side of an infield with Sano- a sterling glove at SS could keep Sano at 3rd for a few extra years.

[clutterheart]

Sorry mudcat, I was composing while you were posting. I too doubt that Engelb=Ozzie is on the table here, but your point is still well-taken. As I pointed out in my post, if Vielma can be 3/4s of a Greg Gagne for the Twins, he would be very valuable, indeed, especially anchoring the left side of an infield with Sano- a sterling glove at SS could keep Sano at 3rd for a few extra years.

When Gagne was 21 he was at AAA with a .782 OPS. Vielma at 21 is in High A with .619 OPS. I hope you're right, but he has a way to go.

[jokin]

 

When Gagne was 21 he was at AAA with a .782 OPS. Vielma at 21 is in High A with .619 OPS. I hope you're right, but he has a way to go.

 

And I'm not saying that is where Vielma ends up, just that his ceiling should probably be set higher than Bernier- and that's strictly based on the opinions expressed by the "experts", along with the hint of budding offensive competence that Engelb has demonstrated over the last two months or so.  Even if he ends up playing, say 5-8 years in the majors mostly as a quality utility guy, that will easily top Bernier's professional career.

[Guest]

Vielma's D was eye-opening in CR last year, too. He had a couple very good months with the bat and a couple clunkers. I really liked him a lot and mentioned that to a Twins FO type during a visit to CR. He confirmed the FO liked Vielma a lot, too, and had some high hopes/expectations for him.

 

Seeing him making strides with the bat in FtM is really encouraging, to me. Would love to see him have a strong winter ball season & then see what happens in Chatt.

[jokin]

 

Vielma's D was eye-opening in CR last year, too. He had a couple very good months with the bat and a couple clunkers. I really liked him a lot and mentioned that to a Twins FO type during a visit to CR. He confirmed the FO liked Vielma a lot, too, and had some high hopes/expectations for him.

 

Seeing him making strides with the bat in FtM is really encouraging, to me. Would love to see him have a strong winter ball season & then see what happens in Chatt.

 

Thanks, JC, for the eyes-on report.  What do you make of the huge strides he's made on the basepaths?

 Is he:

one of those guys who works extra to refine his game...? 

one of those guys who is a sponge for coaching... ?

finally growing into his body...?

[DJL44]

Looked up Brendan Ryan and even he had a 725 OPS in the minors. Vielma would probably repeat A+ if they didn't have to move Gordon up.

[Guest]

 

Thanks, JC, for the eyes-on report.  What do you make of the huge strides he's made on the basepaths?

 Is he:

one of those guys who works extra to refine his game...? 

one of those guys who is a sponge for coaching... ?

finally growing into his body...?

Hard for me to say since I haven't seen him since spring training.

 

I think he was listed at 150 lbs last year in CR, so someone in FtM would have to say whether he's filled out much.

 

CR staff puts in a lot of time with all their players. The number of hours the manager, coaches and players put in during a typical day amazes me and Vielma was no exception.

 

It does seem likely that someone in the organization has pointed out to him that his glove is already MLB-ready and whether he ever puts on a MLB uniform will be determined by whether he can contribute at some degree of proficiency in offensive functions. He needs to get on base and be disruptive when he gets there.

 

I do wonder a bit whether his SBs are partially due to a greater need by the Miracle this season to manufacture runs. It's not like they've been able to reach first and then just wait for an inevitable HR this year.

[Mike Sixel]

There will be a bottle neck next year, if Polanco isn't moved to 2B, or in MN or something.....it will be interesting to see how they handle these guys in the off season.

 

If Gordon isn't in A+ to start next year, I will be confused.

[Shane Wahl]

 

I don't know if you've seen Vielma or not, but are Callis and Berardino barking up the wrong tree in suggesting that he could potentially penetrate some Twins Top 15 lists in the next 8 months?  

 

Do you have a feel for where Vielma would be on your own list should he continue his torrid hitting over the course of the current season?

 

Between 25 and 30 maybe. So much Beresfordy overall, with the hitting and the defense a bit switched.

[DocBauer]

Seems he has flashed a bit with the bat, enough to be encouraged, especially if speed and technique can turn him in to a nice base runner. Obviously, contact and the ability to take a walk are of paramount importance here, but without a little more muscle, it will end up being a moot point as he needs at least a small amount of "punch" to go with his "Judy" or pitchers and defenses will have their way with him.

 

My prediction? Not sure he ever really gets a fair shot with Gordon behind him, Polanco, Escobar and yes, even Santana, ahead of him. Remember this off season when the big debate was who should be the SS coming in to the season? Santana would probably regress, but he was the better athlete, and experience might raise contact numbers to help offset AVG, etc. Well.....it's turned out bad. I'd say unpredictably as well as unexpectedly bad. I hope he can find himself again, either as a top option, or at least as a talented utility option. Escobar has performed far better overall, and might be showing some of the consistency he showed last season...if only he were playing consistently.

 

I guess I just don't understand the thought from some that Polanco can't play SS. He was signed as a SS, he's still playing SS, I've never read anything that I can recall from bloggers here "in the know" or that have seen him in person that state he "obviously" isn't a ML SS. I know he's got some errors, but that's what young infielders do...they often make errors. They often make them when they get to the ML level for a while too. Does he have a scatter-shot arm? Does he have hands of stone?

 

Or does he just rush a few throws? Does he try too hard to make the big play? Does he get a little lazy on the routine plays, as a lot of youngsters do? These are all fixable, and almost expected from a young milb infielder. I don't see where reading "E9" in a box score...even a few times...indicates a kid can't play defense in the majors.

 

I still feel, right now, it's Polanco's job to win, or lose, come 2016.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Personally, I don't get too excited about all glove no hit guys. I know there are exceptions to the rule, but it's really hard to quantify their impact. How many plays in a 9 inning game does a SS see on average? How many more over the course of same game will an all world defender get? If that defender is converting one extra out per game (and I doubt this) over say a league average defender at SS, then he might be worth the black hole in the lineup though that would depend on just how bad that bat is. Most of the all glove guys that I've seen aren't worth the leash they've been given... That's my 2 cents at least.

[ashbury]

I still feel, right now, it's Polanco's job to win, or lose, come 2016.

I'm in that camp too, although his challenge is approximately the opposite of Vielma's: if he can't get a little more juice on his throws to first, without losing accuracy, he will be playing 2B in someone else's system in 2017 at latest.

 

Vielma has a huge chance to fail to progress at bat - he needs a little pop in the bat, just a little, as others have stated, and I really wish he would walk more, so that during any times he's hitting .300 it's not the proverbial empty .300. Without a little pop, it may be difficult for him to work enough walks, as there's not much disincentive to throw him a fastball on 3-1 and take your chances on him reaching first the old-fashioned way. Nevertheless, I consider him enough of a prospect to keep serious watch on.