Waving the white flag on this roster

[Mike Sixel]

Duffey, imo, should have been up here as a RP a month or two ago. Achter and Oliveras got no shot. That's fine, if they think they are terrible, but then why are they protected on the 40 man roster, if they won't ever bring them up?

 

Big whoop, they cut Stauffer and tried a couple guys. That doesn't mean you stop trying guys.......and if Ryan thought Burdi was going to be up, maybe they should not have changed his approach, and just let him be.

 

I was unaware O'Rourke had failed already. And dang, that Meyer failure is looking really bad right now and very disappointing. Tonkin was up for how long? How much of a shot did he get? Again, if they won't really give him a real shot, why is he on the 40 man? And, Thompson? He's not Rogers or Duffey.....

[GACbaseball]

If relievers are a dime a dozen, why do we have so few?

The point is, it's much harder to find a guy who has the ability and stamina to go through a team's lineup 3 times than finding someone who has to get 1 or 2 guys out. We didn't expect to compete this year so we didn't go out and shore up our bullpen with the large number of good free agent relievers available. There just aren't as many good starters available as there are relievers

[TheLeviathan]

When your pen is this bad you risk NOTHING trying other options. But it's insanity to keep thinking you can do the same thing and magically get different results.

[drjim]

 

I don't care what you think of Achter or Oliveras but even if they are awful, that result is no different than the status quo. But at least there is a chance, even briefly, that they aren't awful.

What we're doing is the old definition of insanity and, even more strangely, people are justifying it!

 

It's not like the Twins aren't aware of these guys and evaluating them (well not Oliveros, since he is hurt).

[drjim]

 

Just saying that terry ryan HAS tried other options. Maybe Oliveros should have been given a shot, but I don't think many GMs would take promising starters and turn them into bullpen guys. Decent starters are so hard to find whereas relievers are dime a dozen.
While Boyer and Fien should probably be gone by now, I'm not sure we have anyone better than them in our current system and I don't want to give up anything of value to get a reliever. While it's frustrating to watch our bullpen implode, I'm not in favor of bringing up shiny new toys if they won't be an upgrade over what we already have

 

I completely agree with you - people are really good at identifying obvious problems, less good at offering solutions, and really good at overstating the potential of marginal prospects.

[TheLeviathan]

I completely agree with you - people are really good at identifying obvious problems, less good at offering solutions, and really good at overstating the potential of marginal prospects.

No one is overstating their results. The statement is they can't possibly be worse and at least offer some hope of being better.

[Minniman]

 

It wasn't last night's game. It was the past two weeks of watching the bullpen completely implode. Perkins was simply the last straw to break.

 

It's not just giving up leads in close games. It's stuff like Gibson leaving the last two games with five runners on base and every one of them scoring.

 

That is how Eddie Guardado pitched as a mid-reliever; he allowed inherited runners to score before settling down. I did not believe that could be taught, but he is the bullpen coach.

[drjim]

 

That's not the case at all. Guys like Blaine Boyer had "DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER" written all over them from Opening Day forward.

 

Do you replace that guy while he's dealing? Hell no, of course not... But given the risk analysis of that player, you prepare for his rapid descent into horribleness.

 

But that didn't only apply to Blaine Boyer. It applied to over half the bullpen.

 

What did Ryan do to stem this potential problem? Virtually nothing. He didn't try Oliveros even once. He didn't move the likes of Duffey to the pen in May when things started falling apart. He didn't try Achter at all.

 

As you said, he rotated through a few guys, sometimes twice, and the results remained the same.

 

And then there's Trevor May. Don't even get me started on that decision. They gave him a full month before they started putting him into meaningful games.

 

There were so many options and so few of them were explored.

 

Duffey, Achter and Oliverson do not equal "so many options" they are not better than the group of guys that have already failed (well maybe not Duffey, but he has a less than exhilarating k/9 of under 7 in AAA).

[drjim]

 

No one is overstating their results. The statement is they can't possibly be worse and at least offer some hope of being better.

 

Based on what? Because they are different people?

[GACbaseball]

That's not the case at all. Guys like Blaine Boyer had "DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER" written all over them from Opening Day forward.

 

Do you replace that guy while he's dealing? Hell no, of course not... But given the risk analysis of that player, you prepare for his rapid descent into horribleness.

 

But that didn't only apply to Blaine Boyer. It applied to over half the bullpen.

 

What did Ryan do to stem this potential problem? Virtually nothing. He didn't try Oliveros even once. He didn't move the likes of Duffey to the pen in May when things started falling apart. He didn't try Achter at all.

 

As you said, he rotated through a few guys, sometimes twice, and the results remained the same.

 

And then there's Trevor May. Don't even get me started on that decision. They gave him a full month before they started putting him into meaningful games.

 

There were so many options and so few of them were explored.

Duffey has 58 K's in 77 innings.

Rogers has 88 K's in 127 innings.

Achter has about 1K/inning

Oliveros has more K's than innings

I'd be fine with trying out Achter or Oliveros but I don't think Duffey or Rogers has the skill set to be a great reliever. Not that K's are the be all end all of reliever stats, but you need to be able to strike someone out in tight situations.

 

I think it's funny that so many people have complained about Tonkin being sent up and down so frequently by saying he needs an extended look in the majors to see if he's any good. Well the Twins have been trying to give enough time to Thompson, Fien, Pressly and Boyer so we don't keep bringing them up and down before realizing their true ability.

I would prefer to have Achter and Oliveros up too, but I can't blame TR for not trying because he has been cycling through options. I would be very surprised if Boyer and Fien are still our primary setup guys after July 31st or August 31st, and if they are, then I will jump on the TR bashing bandwagon. I just don't think he deserves quite the hate at this point

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Duffey, Achter and Oliverson do not equal "so many options" they are not better than the group of guys that have already failed (well maybe not Duffey, but he has a less than exhilarating k/9 of under 7 in AAA).

Except we know that one group of guys has failed while the other has yet to receive an opportunity.

 

And considering the magnitude of the previous failures, there's very little to be lost in trying new things.

 

In the past two months, Blaine Boyer has allowed over 1.5 runners to reach base per inning pitched. It's pretty hard to get much worse than that.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Based on what? Because they are different people?

 

yes. If you are one of the 5-10 worst players at your position, replacing you cannot result in worse outcomes. that's the theory.

 

to me, it is clear Boyer is not a legit MLB RP. What harm can it do to try something else? I know others don't agree, but Duensing is in the same boat, imo.

 

What I really don't get is not using May in situations that matter. I also don't get their use of Graham.

[jun]

 

That is how Eddie Guardado pitched as a mid-reliever; he allowed inherited runners to score before settling down. I did not believe that could be taught, but he is the bullpen coach.

One way to make yourself looks good is to make everybody else looks bad, isn't it? :-)

[USAFChief]

The point is, it's much harder to find a guy who has the ability and stamina to go through a team's lineup 3 times than finding someone who has to get 1 or 2 guys out. We didn't expect to compete this year so we didn't go out and shore up our bullpen with the large number of good free agent relievers available. There just aren't as many good starters available as there are relievers

Again I ask...if its so easy, why would we give TR a pass for failing at it?

 

And for the record, TR never said he didn't expect to compete. In fact, pretty much the opposite. Either way, a bullpen with Stauffer, Boyer et al as featured additions is a plan destined for epic failure, and doesn't even offer the hope of dealing them at the deadline for young talent if you AREN'T competing.

 

This isn't about bad luck. This is about failure.

[twinsnorth49]

 

I completely agree with you - people are really good at identifying obvious problems, less good at offering solutions, and really good at overstating the potential of marginal prospects.

Sorry this statement holds absolutely no water, there have been a multitude of suggestions on ways to improve the bullpen, ranging from internal options to available arms from other teams. 

 

Who in their right mind would not identify this bullpen as a problem? Seriously, how can you sit there and chide others for overstating the potential of so called marginal prospects as we watch Brian Duensing walk a lefty #9 batter, the easiest out for what justifies his very existence on this team, and then predictably, to everyone but Molly and TR, gives up a hit that allows all three runners to score?

 

I mean for God's sake when is enough enough?

[USAFChief]

Based on what? Because they are different people?

Then go out and get something better. This isn't complicated.

[jun]

 

Based on what? Because they are different people?

Well at least try something new. I don't care if they are better or worse. Just give it a try to show the fans they are trying to improve.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Who in their right mind would not identify this bullpen as a problem?

This cannot be said enough times. Most of us saw this coming in April. By May, the majority of the regular posters here were sweating bullets.

 

*checks calendar*

 

Yep, it's almost August.

[drjim]

 

Then go out and get something better. This isn't complicated.

 

I suspect they will.

[twinsnorth49]

 

I suspect they will.

What's taken so bloody long?

[drjim]

 

This cannot be said enough times. Most of us saw this coming in April. By May, the majority of the regular posters here were sweating bullets.

 

*checks calendar*

 

Yep, it's almost August.

 

I would actually say everyone saw it as a problem.

[drjim]

 

What's taken so bloody long?

 

There have been two relievers traded, right?

[Mike Sixel]

 

I would actually say everyone saw it as a problem.

 

so Ryan knew Stauffer, Boyer, duensing, et. al. were not good, and still went with them? Is that your argument?

[USAFChief]

I suspect they will.

I foresee an early August waiver claim deal, for someone who will provide way too little, way too late.

 

It'll be cheap though.

[drjim]

 

Except we know that one group of guys has failed while the other has yet to receive an opportunity.

 

And considering the magnitude of the previous failures, there's very little to be lost in trying new things.

 

In the past two months, Blaine Boyer has allowed over 1.5 runners to reach base per inning pitched. It's pretty hard to get much worse than that.

 

Again, it's not like the Twins aren't watching these potential in house guys perform in AAA.

[Shane Wahl]

Shane's radical fix to this roster.

 

1. Promote Oswaldo Arcia

2. Promote J.O. Berrios

2. Promote Taylor Rogers

3. Promote Alex Meyer

4. Promote Tyler Duffey

5. Trade for A.J. Pierzynski (demote Eric Fryer, and offer up two PTBNL)

 

The Arcia moves makes the offense playoff ready after Buxton comes back. Oswaldo Arcia is a fantastic bat to have on the bench in the playoffs. Players for playoffs:

 

Brian Dozier, Torii Hunter, Joe Mauer, Miguel Sano, Trevor Plouffe, Eddie Rosario, Aaron Hicks, Kurt Suzuki/A.J. Pierzynski, Eduardo Escobar, and Oswaldo Arcia, Pierzynski/Suzuki, Danny Santana, Eduardo Nunez, and X player (14 for playoffs--Kepler, Vargas, Pinto (?), Polanco, Robinson, etc. are options)

 

Pitchers for playoffs:

 

Phil Hughes

Kyle Gibson

Tommy Milone

Mike Pelfrey

 

Tyler Duffey

Ryan O'Rourke

Alex Meyer

Taylor Rogers

J.O. Berrios

Trevor May

Glen Perkins

 

Not sure how to order that playoff bullpen, but the point is that all of them can strike batters out. I don't care about Duensing, Boyer, Fien, Tonkin (for now, though he is the backup option if one of the above falters), and even Pressly. Revamp the whole thing in August and let it fly. The above are pitchers who need MLB experience anyway.

 

[jun]

 

Based on what? Because they are different people?

Yes you are correct. They are different people. They could be better or worse. It would show the fans that the Twins are at least trying to improve by doing the best they can internally.

[big dog]

 

There have been two relievers traded, right?

 

What do you mean?

[drjim]

 

so Ryan knew Stauffer, Boyer, duensing, et. al. were not good, and still went with them? Is that your argument?

 

I would say a trade was not possible and none of the internal guys they tried did enough.

 

And they never really tried Stauffer, Duensing didn't pitch leverage innings for a long stretch (and finally earned a chance recently), and Boyer hasn't really pitched a leverage inning in a while.

[drjim]

 

What do you mean?

 

The reliever market hasn't exactly moved, so not easy for the Twins to add upgrades yet.