Waving the white flag on this roster

[Vanimal46]

Maybe it's a little too early to say this on July 29, 2015... But I feel that last night's game can be a turning point on this season. It's painfully clear that this roster currently set up has peaked, and now is on the decline. If nothing is done to improve the weaknesses of this team, wave the white flag now.

 

All I can do when thinking about this bullpen is a combination of F bombs and LOL. Casey Fien needs to go to Tim Stauffer purgatory and build confidence back up in very low leverage situations. Blaine Boyer, it's been interesting friend, but your time is done - DFA. Brian Duensing, oh what are we going to do without the Duensing punching bag on TD? I personally will never trust him in high leverage situations - DFA.

 

I'm hoping last night's embarrassment is the breaking point for TR, and changes will finally be made. But if this is the only plan; to have this group of guys on the MLB roster, and still remain in playoff contention? I don't see it happening.

[DaveW]

If Ryan stands pat it is painfully clear that he just has way to much job security "He is our GM until he says he isn't" and that is a real shame, this team literally could be so so much better with a couple of trades that wouldn't cost much more than a PTBNL (AJ and Benoit) or heck even K-Rod.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

It wasn't last night's game. It was the past two weeks of watching the bullpen completely implode. Perkins was simply the last straw to break.

 

It's not just giving up leads in close games. It's stuff like Gibson leaving the last two games with five runners on base and every one of them scoring. That took two bad starts and turned them into horrible, unwinnable games.

 

The bullpen is doing incredible damage and a lot of it isn't showing up in their box scores. So, as bad as their numbers look right now, realize the situation is even worse than that.

[USAFChief]

It wasn't last night's game. It was the past two weeks of watching the bullpen completely implode. Perkins was simply the last straw to break.

 

It's not just giving up leads in close games. It's stuff like Gibson leaving the last two games with five runners on base and every one of them scoring. That took two bad starts and turned them into horrible, unwinnable games.

 

The bullpen is doing incredible damage and a lot of it isn't showing up in their box scores. So, as bad as their numbers look right now, realize the situation is even worse than that.

And as you noted elsewhere, it's not like this was difficult to see, months ago. There are hundreds of posts here begging for bullpen help. Or particularly difficult to at least TRY to address.

 

It's frustrating, at least to me. Very easily could be 6-4 out of the AS break.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Okay, this is going to be ugly. Since that bad loss in Oakland, here are the Twins losses and the bullpen "effort" that helped them to those losses.

 

7/18 - 2 IP, 4 Hits, 2 BB

7/19 - 5.1 IP, 7 Hits, 1 BB

7/21 - 3 IP, 3 Hits, 1 BB (Boyer absolutely screwed Gibson in this game)

7/22 - 2 IP, 3 Hits, 1 BB

7/25 - 3 IP, 6 Hits

7/26 - 2.1 IP, 1 Hit, 2 BB (this time it was O'Rourke screwing Gibson)

7/28 - 3.2 IP, 6 Hits, 1 BB

 

Total: 21.1 IP, 30 Hits, 8 BB

 

That's nearly a WHIP of 2.0. Jesus Christ.

[GACbaseball]

The problem is, I don't want to repeat another Ramos-Capps trade because our bullpen is struggling. Would we be able to get anything worthwhile without giving up a decent prospect? No.

 

I still want Fien, Boyer, Duensing gone, but I would prefer internal options.

I wonder if we could tell Mike Pelfrey to look at Wade Davis and how a shift to the bullpen turned him into a highly valued player... he could be a very good setup man, IMO

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The problem is, I don't want to repeat another Ramos-Capps trade because our bullpen is struggling. Would we be able to get anything worthwhile without giving up a decent prospect? No.

I still want Fien, Boyer, Duensing gone, but I would prefer internal options.
I wonder if we could tell Mike Pelfrey to look at Wade Davis and how a shift to the bullpen turned him into a highly valued player... he could be a very good setup man, IMO

Ryan has forced himself into giving up assets to acquire bullpen help because he didn't act on the problem sooner.

 

To me, that might be the most frustrating part of this entire situation. If the Twins deal a good prospect to pick up a reliever rental, I'm going to lose my ****.

 

Only go outside the organization and give up prospects after you've exhausted other options.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Yep, the best prospect in the Tulo deal wasn't even as good as Berrios. Clippard was gotten for an A ball guy. Every year I forget how cheaply these deadline deals are. Do something!

[Squirrel]

All of this. Just, all of it. I am not a fly on the wall so I don't know what happens behind closed doors. I am not a professional baseball person, either, so I give a lot of benefit of the doubt … 'they must see this, they must be talking about it.' I have given this situation a TON OF TONS of patience … but last night was it for me. There is NO EXCUSE for this … none … and bullpen fixes, relatively speaking, don't seem to be as difficult as others. While yes, we have other holes, but this one is costing us way more. 

[Squirrel]

Aaaaaargh … 

[Mike Sixel]

Brock is right....they punted on trying internal options the last two months, now they are in a bit of a corner.

 

At this point, I might punt on this season though. They've given away almost all their banked wins now.....given them away.

[Squirrel]

I'm back to saying my mantra every day .. 'It's just a game. It's just a game. It's just a game ...'

 

I know their 'hope' is that people will perform, and well, okay … but when they don't? Sheeesh … do something about it!

[drjim]

Oliveros would have relieved Pelfrey and pitched 3.2 scoreless. Ballgame.

[drjim]

As exciting as calling up marginal guys from AAA and thinking they would be effective mlbers if only given a chance, there was probably two problems.

 

First, the Twins probably didn't see themselves as contenders this year so they didn't pump enough resources into the bullpen in the offseason for proven commodities - and the one guy they did spend money on was a complete fiasco.

 

The second, and much concerning, was that the Twins had 4 guys start the season at AA/HiA that they were counting on emerging by this point, and basically all 4 of them have been failed. Really puts them in a bind.

 

The only real option was trading from outside the org, and that wasn't happening until this week - unless you wanted another Capps trade.

[GACbaseball]

Yep, the best prospect in the Tulo deal wasn't even as good as Berrios. Clippard was gotten for an A ball guy. Every year I forget how cheaply these deadline deals are. Do something!

The Rockies got Jose Reyes and 3 prospects comparable to Meyer, Burdi and Kohl Stewart. We don't have anything close to Reyes, so we would have likely had to include Eduardo Escobar and replace Meyer with Berrios. Is an Escobar, Berrios, Burdi, Stewart trade worth Tulo to you?

http://m.1500espn.com/pages/sportswire.php?sPL=trying_to_find_comparable_twins_package_to_the_troy_tulowitzki_trade072815

 

Clippard was also traded for the #7 prospect in the Mets system, comparable to Kohl Stewart. Would you trade Kohl Stewart for 2 months of Clippard?

[GACbaseball]

Brock is right....they punted on trying internal options the last two months, now they are in a bit of a corner.

 

At this point, I might punt on this season though. They've given away almost all their banked wins now.....given them away.

They have tried internal options! Pressly, Thompson, Meyer, O'Rourke, Tonkin, etc. have all been brought up and failed. Who else would you promote other than possibly Achter and Oliveros? Then at that point it's just cycling through garbage again.

TR probably hoped Burdi, Reed, Jones or Peterson was ready for the big leagues by now, with Jay possibly on the way in September. Obviously all of that is very unlikely now, which is why we are in a bind

[jun]

 

It wasn't last night's game. It was the past two weeks of watching the bullpen completely implode. Perkins was simply the last straw to break.

 

It's not just giving up leads in close games. It's stuff like Gibson leaving the last two games with five runners on base and every one of them scoring. That took two bad starts and turned them into horrible, unwinnable games.

 

The bullpen is doing incredible damage and a lot of it isn't showing up in their box scores. So, as bad as their numbers look right now, realize the situation is even worse than that.

Bullpen coach needs to go. Duensing, Fien, Boyer all need to be released. Bring up Achter, Rogers and Duffey.

[Squirrel]

 

The Rockies got Jose Reyes and 3 prospects comparable to Meyer, Burdi and Kohl Stewart. We don't have anything close to Reyes, so we would have likely had to include Eduardo Escobar and replace Meyer with Berrios. Is an Escobar, Berrios, Burdi, Stewart trade worth Tulo to you?
http://m.1500espn.com/pages/sportswire.php?sPL=trying_to_find_comparable_twins_package_to_the_troy_tulowitzki_trade072815

Clippard was also traded for the #7 prospect in the Mets system, comparable to Kohl Stewart. Would you trade Kohl Stewart for 2 months of Clippard?

The #7 in the Mets system doesn't equal the #7 in our system. Just because they are both 7's doesn't make them equal.

[jun]

 

Oliveros would have relieved Pelfrey and pitched 3.2 scoreless. Ballgame.

Duffey would do the same. I don't have much faith in Oliveros.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

They have tried internal options! Pressly, Thompson, Meyer, O'Rourke, Tonkin, etc. have all been brought up and failed. Who else would you promote other than possibly Achter and Oliveros? Then at that point it's just cycling through garbage again.

Blaine Boyer is still on this roster. More could have been done, either through internal options or the waiver wire.

 

I won't give the Twins a pass for shuffling around a few players about three weeks too late because they didn't shuffle them aggressively enough.

 

They had multiple shots to try Oliveros but instead, they put him in the freakin' Rochester rotation for a few games. They had multiple shots to convert some Rochester starters into relievers but failed to do so and now, here we are.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Bullpen coach needs to go. Duensing, Fien, Boyer all need to be released. Bring up Archer, Rogers and Duffey.

It's way too early to call for Guardado's head. It's not his fault his relievers are garbage.

[drjim]

 

They have tried internal options! Pressly, Thompson, Meyer, O'Rourke, Tonkin, etc. have all been brought up and failed. Who else would you promote other than possibly Achter and Oliveros? Then at that point it's just cycling through garbage again.
TR probably hoped Burdi, Reed, Jones or Peterson was ready for the big leagues by now, with Jay possibly on the way in September. Obviously all of that is very unlikely now, which is why we are in a bind

 

Good luck with this argument.

[GACbaseball]

The #7 in the Mets system doesn't equal the #7 in our system. Just because they are both 7's doesn't make them equal.

Keith Law recently ranked the Mets as the #4 farm system in baseball, with ours not in the top 7. It would make them somewhat comparable, with Casey Meisner being somewhere between the Tyler Jay-Kohl Stewart range of prospect ranking

[drjim]

 

Blaine Boyer is still on this roster. More could have been done, either through internal options or the waiver wire.

 

I won't give the Twins a pass for shuffling around a few players about three weeks too late because they didn't shuffle them aggressively enough.

 

They had multiple shots to try Oliveros but instead, they put him in the freakin' Rochester rotation for a few games. They had multiple shots to convert some Rochester starters into relievers but failed to do so and now, here we are.

 

These guys have been shuffling through throughout the year, sometimes multiple times.

 

At some point you are moving beyond dealing with what has actually happened, with the actual roster, and actual players in the organization, and just repeating platitudes.

[GACbaseball]

Good luck with this argument.

Just saying that terry ryan HAS tried other options. Maybe Oliveros should have been given a shot, but I don't think many GMs would take promising starters and turn them into bullpen guys. Decent starters are so hard to find whereas relievers are dime a dozen.

While Boyer and Fien should probably be gone by now, I'm not sure we have anyone better than them in our current system and I don't want to give up anything of value to get a reliever. While it's frustrating to watch our bullpen implode, I'm not in favor of bringing up shiny new toys if they won't be an upgrade over what we already have

[TheLeviathan]

I don't care what you think of Achter or Oliveras but even if they are awful, that result is no different than the status quo. But at least there is a chance, even briefly, that they aren't awful.

 

What we're doing is the old definition of insanity and, even more strangely, people are justifying it!

[jun]

 

The problem is, I don't want to repeat another Ramos-Capps trade because our bullpen is struggling. Would we be able to get anything worthwhile without giving up a decent prospect? No.

I still want Fien, Boyer, Duensing gone, but I would prefer internal options.
I wonder if we could tell Mike Pelfrey to look at Wade Davis and how a shift to the bullpen turned him into a highly valued player... he could be a very good setup man, IMO

Well unfortunately Pelfrey just wants to be a starter. I think May should stay in the bullpen because he could strike people out. Achter, Rogers and Duffey should all be brought up to take Fien, Boyer and Duensing's place.

[USAFChief]

Just saying that terry ryan HAS tried other options. Maybe Oliveros should have been given a shot, but I don't think many GMs would take promising starters and turn them into bullpen guys. Decent starters are so hard to find whereas relievers are dime a dozen.

While Boyer and Fien should probably be gone by now, I'm not sure we have anyone better than them in our current system and I don't want to give up anything of value to get a reliever. While it's frustrating to watch our bullpen implode, I'm not in favor of bringing up shiny new toys if they won't be an upgrade over what we already have

If relievers are a dime a dozen, why do we have so few?

[jun]

 

Blaine Boyer is still on this roster. More could have been done, either through internal options or the waiver wire.

 

I won't give the Twins a pass for shuffling around a few players about three weeks too late because they didn't shuffle them aggressively enough.

 

They had multiple shots to try Oliveros but instead, they put him in the freakin' Rochester rotation for a few games. They had multiple shots to convert some Rochester starters into relievers but failed to do so and now, here we are.

Achter, Rogers and Duffey to replace Fien, Duensing and Boyer.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

These guys have been shuffling through throughout the year, sometimes multiple times.

 

At some point you are moving beyond dealing with what has actually happened, with the actual roster, and actual players in the organization, and just repeating platitudes.

That's not the case at all. Guys like Blaine Boyer had "DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER" written all over them from Opening Day forward.

 

Do you replace that guy while he's dealing? Hell no, of course not... But given the risk analysis of that player, you prepare for his rapid descent into horribleness.

 

But that didn't only apply to Blaine Boyer. It applied to over half the bullpen.

 

What did Ryan do to stem this potential problem? Virtually nothing. He didn't try Oliveros even once. He didn't move the likes of Duffey to the pen in May when things started falling apart. He didn't try Achter at all.

 

As you said, he rotated through a few guys, sometimes twice, and the results remained the same.

 

And then there's Trevor May. Don't even get me started on that decision. They gave him a full month before they started putting him into meaningful games.

 

There were so many options and so few of them were explored.