Elizabethton Twins and success

[Parker Hageman]

There is a good read at The Hardball Times today regarding the history of success of the Minnesota Twins' rookie ball affiliate, the Elizabethton Twins. 

 

Unlike many clubs, the Twins have six affiliates as oppose to seven thereby lacking that the short-season low-A team in the Northwest or New York-Penn Leagues. This provides Elizabethton with plenty of experienced talent that would have otherwise played up a level. This year, the pitching staff had an average age of 21.1 years while the league maintained an average of 20.4. 

 

Does this hinder the development of players? 

 

E-Twins manager Ray Smith admits there is a noticeable difference in talent but says that does not effect the graduates in the organization:

 

“I’m of the opinion that there is a noticeable difference in the quality of play from this level to the next, experience being the big separator,” says Smith. “But the players that we have been able to promote have held their own and even continued with the success that they had exhibited here earlier in the season. Our Cedar Rapids club made the playoffs with contributions from many of our former players.”

 

 

The Twins have developed plenty of noteworthy talent with the same system so it is hard to contend that not having a short-season low-A team is effecting them in any way. Some experts will tell you players/prospects need to struggle in order to understand how to become major leaguers. At the same time, you could argue at the same time that having the added success at rookie ball may give some players confidence as they ascend in the system. 

 

Either way, according to team's director of minor league operations Brad Stiel, the Twins have no plans to add another affiliate in the organization any time soon.

 

[Steven Buhr]

Good article, thanks for linking it, Parker.

 

The only way I would ever see the Twins adding a short-season class A team would be if they really started to open up the pipeline in Latin America and elsewhere around the world. If they started bringing in, say, 20 more kids a year, they might find themselves needing another short-season team to give everyone enough opportunities to play.

 

The Yankees actually added an 8th minor league affiliate in the US to accommodate all of the players they bring in. They have two "complex" teams in the GCL, in addition to a travel rookie-league team and a short season A team.

 

I will say that I do believe there is a significant gap between Appy and MWL. Cedar Rapids benefited from some high quality pitchers who came up from ETown this summer, but it's pretty rare that we see position players come up from the Appy league and contribute with their bats.

[Seth Stohs]

But that 'high-quality' pitching that came up to Cedar Rapids this  year was in the form of Lewis Thorpe, Fernando Romero and Stephen Gonsalves... which again shows that it isn't about age when it comes to decisions to promote or not. All three were under 20. They added Mat Batts later. He was older but only drafted about 6 weeks before he was in Cedar Rapids. Nick Burdi started at CR and quickly got up to FM. And the other side of that is that Nick Gordon, at 18, started his career there. Joe Mauer and Trevor Plouffe jumped right to ET too.

 

I personally agree with the decision to start college guys in Elizabethton for various reasons including:

 

Adjustment to pro life, adjustment to wood bats, adjustments to the daily routine, meeting new teammates, getting paid, paying more bills. In addition, the Twins could put guys like Cederoth and Curtiss in the rotation after they'd pitched in the bullpen in college in a position where they could be successful. With many college starters, they put them in E-Town and have them work about every 5th day to keep their innings down since they started throwing in February and probably already have 100 innings.

 

And when guys like Max Murphy do what he did in a month in E-Town, he moved up. 

[Seth Stohs]

At the same time, I'd love it if they added another affiliate because it would mean getting to cover more minor leaguers!!

[Parker Hageman]

I personally agree with the decision to start college guys in Elizabethton for various reasons including:

 

Adjustment to pro life, adjustment to wood bats, adjustments to the daily routine, meeting new teammates, getting paid, paying more bills

 

 

Counterpoint: They could do the same against other college kids in the NW or NY-Penn Leagues.

[Mike Sixel]

hard to argue "nothing should change" given the number of good or better players the minors have graduated the last 5-8 years, isn't it?

 

I am on the push them side of the argument. Actually, I'm on the side that says you really can't learn much of anything by having college players dominate 17 and 18 year old HS players. 

[Steven Buhr]

hard to argue "nothing should change" given the number of good or better players the minors have graduated the last 5-8 years, isn't it?

 

I am on the push them side of the argument. Actually, I'm on the side that says you really can't learn much of anything by having college players dominate 17 and 18 year old HS players. 

I think the overmatch situation is being a little overstated. How many 17 year olds were in the Appy this year? Even the 18 yr olds there were likely among the best of the best of the HS draft class and/or the best young Latin American players. Most of the "17 and 18 year old HS players" are getting their starts in the "complex" leagues.

 

And as was pointed out in the article, the Twins actually do "push" guys up as they demonstrate proficency. ETown's best players moved up to CR this year and, with the exception of Mitch Garver (whose situation has already been well documented), CR's best moved up, too.

[Mike Sixel]

Fair enough, I clearly have a bias on promotions very different than the Twins (more of a WS guy in that regard). Either way, I want more players to contribute to the Twins. A lot more.

[Steven Buhr]

Fair enough, I clearly have a bias on promotions very different than the Twins (more of a WS guy in that regard). Either way, I want more players to contribute to the Twins. A lot more.

And that's a legitimate position to take.

 

Returning to the subject of the article, though, I don't think adding a short-season Class A affiliate would do much to support your cause. While the college guys would be more likely to start at short-season A than in the Appy, that wouldn't make them any more likely to get to CR or FtM any faster (and could potentially make it a longer trek).

[Mike Sixel]

Agreed, SD. I don't think they need another affiliate, unless they up the number of players in the system.

[ashbury]

Agreed, SD. I don't think they need another affiliate, unless they up the number of players in the system.

And it's not as if these extra 20 players would be top prospects.  Mostly just St Paul Saints types of player, scattered through the farm system to fill in the gaps of the good players moved up or down to be on the new team, themselves having no ultimate impact on the franchise - though as Seth says they may be fun to follow.  The question is what best develops the top-50 type of prospects, and my current mantra is "What Would St Louis Do?"  Oh look, they have a NY-P League team.  I just changed my mind, we should do that too.

[Steven Buhr]

I agree that fielding a 7th team would be unlikely to mean seeing a higher number of legitimate prospects. You won't add more top draft picks because, unless you're the Astros, you're signing all of your top picks already. You won't sign more of the high priced international FAs either.

 

having no short-season class A team usually means 2 things: your top rookie-league team is consistently very good and your low-A team is not.

 

In Cedar Rapids, we saw some of this dynamic as an affiliate of the Angels, who also do not have a short-season class A affiliate. They promoted straight from Pioneer League Orem.

 

For the past 10 years, the Twins have largely been an exception to this rule with regard to low A. In 8 years at Beloit and 2 at CR, the Twins have had only 2 seasons of sub-.500 records (and one season exactly at .500). As long as they continue to field competitive teams at low A without a short-season A affiliate, I see no reason for the Twins to even think about adding a team at that level.

[Monkeypaws]

Is it the opinion of you guys that our minor leaguers get enough playing time?

 

If there aren't enough at bats or innings to go around, then I'd could see another short season affiliate. 

 

I'd hate to see a minor leaguer fail simply because lack of playing time, prospect or not.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Is there a limit to the number of players a team can have in their system? Or could a team just add affiliates ad infinitum?

[goulik]

Is there a limit to the number of players a team can have in their system? Or could a team just add affiliates ad infinitum?

Good question...

[Steven Buhr]

Is it the opinion of you guys that our minor leaguers get enough playing time?

 

If there aren't enough at bats or innings to go around, then I'd could see another short season affiliate. 

 

I'd hate to see a minor leaguer fail simply because lack of playing time, prospect or not.

 

I don't think that's an issue, at least at Class A.

 

Each of the past 2 years, the Kernels have had a six man pitching rotation (at least for most of the season) in order to try to allow the starting pitchers to get through the entire season without exceeding their innings limits (which are a certain % over and above their prior season's innings total). They also have strict pitch count limits in each game.

 

Despite the 6 man rotation, in each of the past 2 seasons, pitchers have had to be restricted or even shut down by the end of the season. This happened in both CR and FtM this year.

 

The clubs generally will not have relievers pitch back to back dates. Put that together with the 6 man rotation and you have at least a 12 man pitching staff (and often 13), leaving just 12-13 position players on the roster. Each team generally carries 3 catchers at this level to spread out the workload.

 

Add it all up and you don't end up with too many "bench players" among the position players for each game. When someone gets dinged up a little bit and has to sit out a couple games, it can leave the bench pretty short.

 

The manager's job is to make sure each player gets enough playing time to be fairly evaluated and I think they get plenty of opportunities. It may not be at their primary position all the time, but they get their cuts in. If anyone gets cheated a bit on innings, it can be that 3rd catcher, especially if he can't play any other position.

[diehardtwinsfan]

If it's a PT issue, I'd say add the affiliate, otherwise I don't see much of a need. The only major thing I've noticed about not having that short season class A team is that some guys tend to do really well in the Appy and struggle in A ball. This is not unusual (especially for guys who are a bit old for the league)... the short season A ball league would probably benefit them a bit more (and us for getting an idea of their true talent), but I dont' really see the need.

[righty8383]

MILB should partner up with the American Association League, make it a short season league a step above the Appy league, and have the Saints affiliate with the Twins. The Twins would have a better place to put their college draft picks and many of us could watch some prospects without driving 5 hours away.

 

A guy can only dream...

[DocBauer]

I think the Twins have it just right.

 

18 and even 19 year olds are usually in the GCL, not the Appy league. And sure the Twins put some college age kids at E-Town, but those kids tend to be latter round picks, or, earlier picks who use that level as an entry level springboard before jumping to CR. I think the Twins do a pretty good job of advancing prospects to CR when ready as I don't see a lot of downward promotions when they get that upward call.

 

I don't know that another affiliate, and then finding the players to successfully stock it, does anything but muddle the situation. You might end up with affiliates with poorer records, and more marginal prospects to track rather than concentrating efforts on stronger teams with real projectables.

[kab21]

I think the need for a NYPL or NWL affiliate has increased with the earlier draft signing date.  More players are getting into the GCL during their draft year and ready to move up the following season.  They might not however be ready to move up to CR the following year.

 

It would be a bigger issue if they ever stopped loading up on relief pitchers in the draft though.  As long as they continue to use half of their early picks on college RP'ers that basically can skip to full season ball they probably won't have any logjams in short season ball.