Handling Delmon Young

[Mike Sixel]

We can only go by what we read, and hear on the radio. And, it was widely reported that Anderson and Gardenhire had issues with Garza, and Bartlett, and Valenica, and Slowey. None of whom are with the Twins in the majors right now. Is that really a coincidence?

[BHtwins]

Bottom line is a strong GM does not make organizational changes at the behest of the game manager. There is strong circumstanial evidence that Terry Ryan quite often does the opposite of what Gardy wants and has going way back. If Bill Smith did make changes that dramatic at the game managers request....then its a Bill Smith problem not a Gardy problem. I say that as someone who cant stand Gardy

 

The four other pitchers (Bonser, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins) had nowhere near the hype and the potential ace status of Garza. They all had problems

[one_eyed_jack]

We can only go by what we read, and hear on the radio. And, it was widely reported that Anderson and Gardenhire had issues with Garza, and Bartlett, and Valenica, and Slowey. None of whom are with the Twins in the majors right now. Is that really a coincidence?

You shouldn't take everything you read and hear on the radio as the word of God. Information travels fast these days, and so does misinformation. Unless you're actually there or getting it from a reliable source who was actually there, you've got little more than speculation and rumor.

[one_eyed_jack]

Bottom line is a strong GM does not make organizational changes at the behest of the game manager. There is strong circumstanial evidence that Terry Ryan quite often does the opposite of what Gardy wants and has going way back. If Bill Smith did make changes that dramatic at the game managers request....then its a Bill Smith problem not a Gardy problem. I say that as someone who cant stand Gardy

 

The four other pitchers (Bonser, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins) had nowhere near the hype and the potential ace status of Garza. They all had problems

Thank you for adding some sanity to the discussion.

[ashbury]

If that's the case, it should have been a big red flag for Bill Smith. The Rays knew what Brendan Harris was, and obviously thought Bartlett was a much better shortstop.

You can't take that philosophy to an extreme, because anytime a deal is on the table it's because the other guy thinks it's a win for him. But, when your opposite number has gained a reputation for astute player evaluation, as the Rays had done, you do really have to think twice, as you say.

 

Bartlett was and is no Hall of Famer, but he was approaching averageness at the major league level (he even managed an All Star season). And average players, particularly at the skill positions, don't really grow on trees, and can't be just a throw-in to get a deal done.

[ashbury]

You never trade pitching for hitting, it never turns out.

Yeah, the Orioles are still kicking themselves to this day for dealing Milt Pappas.

[Riverbrian]

Honestly, I was excited about the trade at first. #1 pick overall... In the majors and performing at a very young age.

 

It didn't take long for that excitement to turn to horror. To this day... Delmon is the only Twin that I've hated. Maybe a month of watching and it was obvious that he didn't give a crap. I told everyone that I prayed for a big year so he would get some trade value for trade. I was sure that he had to be in the Gardy doghouse.

 

He had that year and Nothing!!! A Twin he remained until his Value dropped to a relief pitcher who might make it and then the trigger was pulled.

 

I understand why the trade was made but I don't understand why they didn't move him at the first sign of increased value after he unveiled his attitude and what he was in a Twins uniform. Bill Smith was in charge.

[clutterheart]

No. I did not hate the trade as I was hopeful Young would be a star.

But I would not make it as you don't trade a starter like Garza. Also I think I heard LaVelle say on the radio the other day "It would have been interesting if the Twins would have called other teams and offered Garza AND Barlett to see what else could have been returned"

 

He made it sound like Smith did not do his dilligence on what else those guys could have brought and instead got so focused on Delmon.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Guys, if Kevin Slowey, Boof Bonser, Nick Blackburn, and Glen Perkins would have turned into good starters, and Baker and Liriano wouldn't have had their problems, you might be singing a different tune regardless of Young's performance. At the time it was an attempt to trade from a strength to improve upon a weakness. Everything just went the wrong way after

Yeah, and if the Twins had traded Nick Punto for the Yankees for Derek Jeter, A-Rod, and then traded a young Valencia for Tim Lincecum, and then traded Casilla for Dustin Pedroia and David Ortiz, and then traded Parmalee for CC Sabathia, and then traded Pat Neshek for Roy Halladay, and then traded Dan Gladden for Vin Scully, and Justin Morneau never had a concussion, and Joe Mauer never got hurt, and Joe Nathan never got hurt, and Jesse Crain resigned with the Twins, we would be the World Series champs three years running, and everybody on this website would be drooling over the wonderful job Gardy is doing.

 

If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

 

If this and this and this... Get out of here with that nonsense.

[Bark's Lounge]

If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

FDG - please tell me Christmas is not cancelled this year. I really need to talk to Santa.

[Shane Wahl]

Yeah, and if the Twins had traded Nick Punto for the Yankees for Derek Jeter, A-Rod, and then traded a young Valencia for Tim Lincecum, and then traded Casilla for Dustin Pedroia and David Ortiz, and then traded Parmalee for CC Sabathia, and then traded Pat Neshek for Roy Halladay, and then traded Dan Gladden for Vin Scully, and Justin Morneau never had a concussion, and Joe Mauer never got hurt, and Joe Nathan never got hurt, and Jesse Crain resigned with the Twins, we would be the World Series champs three years running, and everybody on this website would be drooling over the wonderful job Gardy is doing.

 

If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

 

If this and this and this... Get out of here with that nonsense.

What in the HELL are you talking about? My point was simply that people looking back at the trade see it after the general collapse of Twins starting pitching since. But Twins starting pitching was viewed as an organizational strength at the time (and OF depth, especially RH OF depth, a weakness).

 

Don't tell me to "get out of here"---good god I cannot imagine a post here pissing me off more than this one.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Really? It looks to me like like you were saying that if these seven things went right, then everybody wouldn't feel so bad about a player the Twins overpaid for blowing up in their face (and yes, they did overpay, and yes, Young did not come close to his potential). At the time, the Twins had a surplus of AAAA control pitchers, not power guys. Trading Garza and a better-than-league-average starting shortstop for a poor defensive starting outfielder with one decent offensive season and a history of being a head case was a bad decision. The Twins have never been in a position where pitching was organizational strength.

 

As for your anger control issues over somebody you don't know calling you out on a comment made on a message board, I can only suggest counseling...

[Shane Wahl]

Really? It looks to me like like you were saying that if these seven things went right, then everybody wouldn't feel so bad about a player the Twins overpaid for blowing up in their face (and yes, they did overpay, and yes, Young did not come close to his potential). At the time, the Twins had a surplus of AAAA control pitchers, not power guys. Trading Garza and a better-than-league-average starting shortstop for a poor defensive starting outfielder with one decent offensive season and a history of being a head case was a bad decision. The Twins have never been in a position where pitching was organizational strength.

 

As for your anger control issues over somebody you don't know calling you out on a comment made on a message board, I can only suggest counseling...

You weren't calling me out. You were wildly misinterpreting the point. I am sorry that I had the word "and" in there, though "or" wouldn't have been enough. You are not telling the truth when you say that the Twins did not have pitching depth at the time. The idea, which I thought was clear, was that if SP weren't such a problem right now, the trade would not look as bad.

 

Your what ifs involving ridiculous trades had no place as a response to that.

[luckylager]

You shouldn't take everything you read and hear on the radio as the word of God. Information travels fast these days, and so does misinformation. Unless you're actually there or getting it from a reliable source who was actually there, you've got little more than speculation and rumor.

Amen. I am amazed by all who claim to have the inside dope on Gardy's relationship with players.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't think anyone is saying they've been there, or that they have some inside scoop. We are merely commenting on things printed in the paper, online, and said on KFAN and other outlets. You can choose to believe LaVelle and others, or not, your choice. I generally believe them when they talk about relationships (which isn't all that often, which is one reason I do believe them when they do). But no one on this thread is stating that have some secret knowledge that isn't widely available.

[StormJH1]

Honestly...

 

The one who messed this whole thing up was Gardenhire:

 

He did not Garza in his team because Garza would not listen to Andy about throwing 2 seamers and pitching to contact. That has been documented and is out there. Then Young comes and Gardy plays him in a position he never played before (LF) instead of the position he has been an above average fielder in Tampa (check out his UZR), RF. Then the Twins started to throw Young under the bus when he did not like to listen to Vavra and wanted to pull the ball. And the kid carried the Twins in his back in 2010. And nobody gives him any credit for that.

 

Gardy initiated that mess of a trade and he has been in my doghouse for a while...

Absolutely. Well done.

 

I'm not really a "Gardy hater" - I think he has one or two great attributes for every one of his flaws. But he's very much a part of an organizational "culture" that seems to try and mold/shape guys like Garza who don't 100% drink the Kool-Aid, instead of letting them be who they are and appreciating that they play for your squad.

 

If we're talking about "did this trade look good at the time?", then I would have to say yes, and I don't really fault Smith for this deal. There's kind of this myth/false assumption that we got Delmon as a "failed" prospect, which is total BS. Delmon played two seasons for Tampa Bay at ages 20 and 21. 21 years old. And he batted .288 that year with a little bit of power. Sure, he didn't take walks, and a lot of his numbers are kind of ugly, but this was a guy that was absolutely fast-tracked and did NOT disappoint, relative to his age. His batting average his first three years as a Twin was .290, .284. and .298. Again, he didn't walk much, but he was hardly a bum.

 

Delmon played 163 games in RF and 30 games in CF for the Rays those two years. He had NEVER played left field. I understand that Cuddyer would have the edge to start in RF that year, but Gardy should have switched Span to LF and put Delmon back to RF once Cuddyer got injured. But he didn't because Gardy and this organization defer to "their guys", sometimes at the expense of the team. And Delmon absolutely was a huge factor in the success of the 2010 team, with some HUGE hits down the stretch, and basically replacing all of the production that people expected from Mauer, but didn't get.

 

Yes, it went bad later, but Garza needed to get out of here. And who knows if a different Garza trade would have been any better. We got 3.5 years out of Delmon, and we got them cheap, which allowed us to pay Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddy, and add a few pieces like Pavano, Thome, O-Dog, etc. Overall, yes, it was an obvious disappointment, but it was not the unmitigated disaster people seem to think it was in retrospect.

[CDog]

Just to be That Guy, I've noticed a couple of claims here that Young carried the 2010 Twins to the playoffs. I know in another thread it was said that he did so "single-handedly." Young was an absolute beast in July '10, and his power (and the timing of the power, based on memory) was big in September. But he was brutal in August and after July he made outs just over 72% of the time he went to the plate. He had also gotten off to a somewhat slow start before a very good May and solid June. Meanwhile, Mauer did have a good start before a solid May and a poor-for-him-average-for everyone June, but then was enormous in July and August and about as good as Young after that (with the typical swap of OBP for power between them, but ending up around the same value as a hitter...something tells me Mauer might have been more valuable defensively, but that's just my feeling for now). He finished the year with a WAR of 5.5 (granted a step back from the monster '09, but a huge year nonetheless). Cuddyer was also big in July before being only average after that (but filling in for Morneau at first when there was absolutely no other option). Then, of course, Morneau was MVP-ish for his half season and Thome was a behemoth throughout the year in about half-time duty.

 

So Young (at the plate) wasn't exactly the only guy that contributed at the plate. Carry on.

[one_eyed_jack]

I don't think anyone is saying they've been there, or that they have some inside scoop. We are merely commenting on things printed in the paper, online, and said on KFAN and other outlets. You can choose to believe LaVelle and others, or not, your choice. I generally believe them when they talk about relationships (which isn't all that often, which is one reason I do believe them when they do). But no one on this thread is stating that have some secret knowledge that isn't widely available.

 

---Maybe not directly, but there are certainly people basing judgments on things that only an insider would know. (any statement to the effect of Gardenhire disliked player X for reason Y so he orchestrated trade Z falls into this category.)

 

And while the local scribes and talking heads discuss this stuff and they are closer than any of us, they're not really insiders either. Much of what they say is based on rumor and perception, and they have an interest in getting people fired up about things, so I tend to take what they say with a grain of salt.