Sinker: Pirates find Worley's mechanical flaw

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think you are right, but I will take some inconsistency. I mean look at the guys he will likely replace, every single one has been inconsistent this year outside of Hughes. From this point to when he hits his innings limit the goal should be to let him face MLB hitters and see how his stuff matches up and what Gibson-like adjustments he needs to make.

 

I would rather get that out of the way with this year rather than in 2015.

 

He has the most talent at AAA, bar none and his minor numbers look like a video game (3.06 ERA and 10.4K per 9). He will be 25 in spring training next year.

 

And, more importantly. I told my friend to draft him and stash him for his fantasy league and I am getting sick of him giving me a hard time about it!

 

But there's a difference between Meyer's "inconsistency" versus "holy crap, he's pretty bad right now". Over the course of ten days, he had two starts where he went under four innings and gave up at least three runs.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Pino was called up before May got injured, and I'm not really convinced it was just fluke bad timing -- they could have easily worked May into the rotation anytime over the prior month. May was on the 40-man and performing great at AAA and they were already futzing around with Deduno -- Pino was just an extension of that, not a one-start patch.

 

May didn't line up with the Twins' rotation in mid-June and then he got injured. I think May is in Minnesota pitching every fifth day right now if not for the injury. After all, the Twins sent Pino back down immediately after his second start. That's a pretty good indication they had other plans.

 

Pino pitched on 6/19. May was hurt on 6/21 but it initially seemed minor and a quick bounce-back was expected. Pino was demoted on 6/26 after his second start. May was put on the DL on 6/27. Pino was recalled a few days afterward.

 

I think that series of events pretty clearly indicates that the Twins were planning on calling up May but his injury got in the way.

 

Meyer scuffling a couple weeks set back his time table? Every player scuffles for a few weeks here and there -- heck, we've had a few scufflers on the MLB roster most of the season. That really shouldn't throw off an otherwise healthy, successful, not-young prospect's promotion by 2-3 months or more.

 

Meyer was pretty bad. There was talk that he was injured. He went less than four innings in multiple starts. That's not the guy you call up to make his MLB debut. It's hard to fault the Twins for reconsidering their time tables when a guy is awful every other start.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Pino pitched on 6/19. May was hurt on 6/21 but it initially seemed minor and a quick bounce-back was expected. Pino was demoted on 6/26 after his second start. May was put on the DL on 6/27. Pino was recalled a few days afterward.

 

I think that series of events pretty clearly indicates that the Twins were planning on calling up May but his injury got in the way.

 

You omit that June 25, the Twins named Trevor May to start the upcoming Futures Game on July 13. Seems a weird thing to do if you're planning to promote him within the week.

 

It certainly is possible that they had May in mind for a promotion sooner, but I don't think that's clear from the above timeline, or from their previous actions (May could have safely been lined up with Deduno as early as late May), or from their 2013 promotion timings.

 

Meyer was pretty bad. There was talk that he was injured. He went less than four innings in multiple starts. That's not the guy you call up to get his MLB cup of coffee. It's hard to fault the Twins for reconsidering their time tables when a guy is awful every other start.

 

Meyer certainly scuffled, but it looks a lot worse because of his pitch count limitations. Here is the 3 start span in question:

 

2 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 1 K, 55 pitches

3 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 4 K, 78 pitches

3.2 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 2 BB, 3 K, 73 pitches

 

Without the pitch count restrictions, he probably logs a not-disastrous 5 inning "Deduno special" in at least 1, if not 2 or perhaps even all 3 of those games. If that's his downside, that's not bad. (Deduno's problem is those games appear to his upside.)

 

And that so-called "awful" stretch was bookended by 6 IP, 0-1 R, 7-8 K, ~80 pitch games.

[jokin]

May didn't line up with the Twins' rotation in mid-June and then he got injured. I think May is in Minnesota pitching every fifth day right now if not for the injury.

Pino pitched on 6/19. May was hurt on 6/21 but it initially seemed minor and a quick bounce-back was expected. Pino was demoted on 6/26 after his second start. May was put on the DL on 6/27. Pino was recalled a few days afterward.

 

I think that series of events pretty clearly indicates that the Twins were planning on calling up May but his injury got in the way.

 

 

 

Trevor May was placed on the Futures Game roster on June 25 (to replace Marco Gonzalez), a day or so after the official roster was announced. Based on all of the Twins moves in the last 2 weeks of June...it seems pretty clear that May wasn't going to get promoted until after the All Star break.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Meyer certainly scuffled, but it looks a lot worse because of his pitch count limitations. Here is the 3 start span in question:

 

2 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 1 K, 55 pitches

3 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 4 K, 78 pitches

3.2 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 2 BB, 3 K, 73 pitches

 

Without the pitch count restrictions, he probably logs a not-disastrous 5 inning "Deduno special" in at least 1, if not 2 or perhaps even all 3 of those games. If that's his downside, that's not bad. (Deduno's problem is those games appear to his upside.)

 

And that so-called "awful" stretch was bookended by 6 IP, 0-1 R, 7-8 K, ~80 pitch games.

 

I mentioned multiple times earlier that he was awful every other start, not every start... so it wasn't really an "awful stretch", just inconsistent.

 

Either way, his early June was enough to give anyone pause, particularly when talking about a guy on an innings limit with shoulder concerns. It would have been foolish to promote him to MLB when the back of your mind is telling you "I hope he's not having shoulder issues again".

 

With that said and done, I think it's time we see Meyer in Minnesota. Let him stay here after the Futures Game, I say.

[jokin]

I mentioned multiple times earlier that he was awful every other start, not every start... so it wasn't really an "awful stretch", just inconsistent.

 

Either way, his early June was enough to give anyone pause, particularly when talking about a guy on an innings limit with shoulder concerns. It would have been foolish to promote him to MLB when the back of your mind is telling you "I hope he's not having shoulder issues again".

 

With that said and done, I think it's time we see Meyer in Minnesota. Let him stay here after the Futures Game, I say.

 

Absolutely. At close to 90 IP as of today, he only has 50-60 innings left for 2014, based on the restrictions that Antony, himself, imposed.

[TheLeviathan]

. A few weeks here, a few weeks there... Not enough for me to really get irritated. Definitely no 2006 Jason Bartlett situations, that's for sure.

 

To a degree, yes, you are sometimes going to have older placeholders. The problem is this team rarely targets younger players/castoffs to fill those roles and it couples that with giving multi-year deals to placeholders. Just not my cup of tea personally.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Absolutely. At close to 90 IP as of today, he only has 50-60 innings left for 2014, based on the restrictions that Antony, himself, imposed.

 

While it'd be nice to see, I think what's more likely is that the Twins hold off on promoting Meyer until they can move Correia and thereby clear up 40 man roster space.

 

It's really unfortunate that May got hurt. I think the Twins are eager to promote one of their better prospects but it's hard to do right now when you know 40 man space is going to open up soon.

[tobi0040]

You omit that June 25, the Twins named Trevor May to start the upcoming Futures Game on July 13. Seems a weird thing to do if you're planning to promote him within the week.

 

It certainly is possible that they had May in mind for a promotion sooner, but I don't think that's clear from the above timeline, or from their previous actions (May could have safely been lined up with Deduno as early as late May), or from their 2013 promotion timings.

 

 

 

Meyer certainly scuffled, but it looks a lot worse because of his pitch count limitations. Here is the 3 start span in question:

 

2 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 1 K, 55 pitches

3 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 4 K, 78 pitches

3.2 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 2 BB, 3 K, 73 pitches

 

Without the pitch count restrictions, he probably logs a not-disastrous 5 inning "Deduno special" in at least 1, if not 2 or perhaps even all 3 of those games. If that's his downside, that's not bad. (Deduno's problem is those games appear to his upside.)

 

And that so-called "awful" stretch was bookended by 6 IP, 0-1 R, 7-8 K, ~80 pitch games.

 

It goes beyond Deduno though. Pelfrey had a 7.99 ERA.

 

In 18 starts, Corriea has failed to reach the 5th inning three times and has 8 starts with 4 ER or more.

 

So Meyer goes 4 or 5 IP in those three "inconsistent" starts without an innings limit and he spread around 7 ER in those 3 starts.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I mentioned multiple times earlier that he was awful every other start, not every start... so it wasn't really an "awful stretch", just inconsistent.

 

But he wasn't "awful every other start" either. Arguably he wasn't awful at all. Dating back to May 10, outside the scuffling three start stretch I mentioned, Meyer made 8 starts, pitched 5+ innings every time, and allowed 2 or fewer runs 6 times, 3 runs once, and 4 runs once. All the while maintaining his season K/9 and BB/9 rates. That's not easy to do on a pitch count of 80! Almost any pitcher is guaranteed to have some short starts under those circumstances.

 

Either way, his early June was enough to give anyone pause, particularly when talking about a guy on an innings limit with shoulder concerns. It would have been foolish to promote him to MLB when the back of your mind is telling you "I hope he's not having shoulder issues again".

 

With that said and done, I think it's time we see Meyer in Minnesota. Let him stay here after the Futures Game, I say.

 

To be clear: I would have promoted May before Meyer. I think early June was a good time to promote May (no pun intended), and like you say, now (or within a week) is the best time to promote Meyer.

 

I have a feeling we're going to be 2-3 months late on both counts, though -- potentially pushing Meyer's promotion into 2015 and requiring an extra veteran starter to be signed as insurance in the offseason, since we will have no MLB data on Meyer yet (and potentially very little on May).

[Brock Beauchamp]

To be clear: I would have promoted May before Meyer. I think early June was a good time to promote May (no pun intended), and like you say, now (or within a week) is the best time to promote Meyer.

 

I have a feeling we're going to be 2-3 months late on both counts, though -- potentially pushing Meyer's promotion into 2015 and requiring an extra veteran starter to be signed as insurance in the offseason, since we will have no MLB data on Meyer yet (and potentially very little on May).

 

I also would have promoted May before Meyer but I think it's likely we see both this season (barring injury). With Correia leaving in the next three weeks and Nolasco being a question mark, the Twins are going to have open 25- and 40-man roster space. There's absolutely no reason not to give two of those 25-man slots to May and Meyer.

[Mike Sixel]

Major league data on a prospect, I love that idea.......

[jokin]

Major league data on a prospect, I love that idea.......

 

Antony is on record (and I'm pretty sure Ryan in the past has, too) that there is magnitude of difference between competition at AAA vs. MLB. Thus, there's ultimately only one way to evaluate a player's true state of major-league readiness.

 

Thus....It costs some service time to make a fully-informed decision.

 

So be it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

While it'd be nice to see, I think what's more likely is that the Twins hold off on promoting Meyer until they can move Correia and thereby clear up 40 man roster space.

 

It's really unfortunate that May got hurt. I think the Twins are eager to promote one of their better prospects but it's hard to do right now when you know 40 man space is going to open up soon.

 

Why do you keep repeating that the Twins are eager to promote May? When it was obvious to the world that Pelfrey/Deduno were not permanent rotation fixtures over about 2 months, and May represented the best combo of current and future readiness in Rochester, the Twins made no apparent effort to get May into that spot, despite May already being on the 40-man roster. And just at the moment Deduno struggled enough to officially open the spot, the Twins ADDED a different guy to the 40-man to take it (Pino) and nominated May to essentially stay in the minors an extra 3+ weeks, at minimum, for the Futures Game.

 

And now you also suggest the Twins might want top pitching prospect Meyer on the team, but can't do it now due to a 40-man roster crunch... just 3 weeks after the Twins added a 30-year-old minor league journeyman to the 40-man roster, to promote ahead of May.

 

Pardon me if I am skeptical on both counts.

 

(An aside: why on earth would they care about Florimon's 40 man spot after his recent MLB appearance? What are the odds anyone even claims him? What are the odds the Twins even notice he's gone?)

[Brock Beauchamp]

Why do you keep repeating that the Twins are eager to promote May? When it was obvious to the world that Pelfrey/Deduno were not permanent rotation fixtures over about 2 months, and May represented the best combo of current and future readiness in Rochester, the Twins made no apparent effort to get May into that spot, despite May already being on the 40-man roster. And just at the moment Deduno struggled enough to officially open the spot, the Twins ADDED a different guy to the 40-man to take it (Pino) and nominated May to essentially stay in the minors an extra 3+ weeks, at minimum, for the Futures Game.

 

And now you also suggest the Twins might want top pitching prospect Meyer on the team, but can't do it now due to a 40-man roster crunch... just 3 weeks after the Twins added a 30-year-old minor league journeyman to the 40-man roster, to promote ahead of May.

 

Pardon me if I am skeptical on both counts.

 

(An aside: why on earth would they care about Florimon's 40 man spot after his recent MLB appearance? What are the odds anyone even claims him? What are the odds the Twins even notice he's gone?)

 

I believe the Twins are eager to see some of their better prospects play, particularly now that they've fallen out of contention. Notice that I said that as opinion, not fact. No need to get snippy about it.

 

As for 40 man space, teams often switch out position-for-position on 40 man roster moves. Should they care about such a thing? I don't know, it just seems to be how they operate at times. Either way, I think the Twins will hold back adding Meyer to the 40 man when they know that another pitcher will be removed from the 40 man in a couple of weeks. I, for one, will be very disappointed if Meyer doesn't take Correia's spot on the 25 man (or even May if he's ready, whatever, either one is fine).

[Otto von Ballpark]

I also would have promoted May before Meyer but I think it's likely we see both this season (barring injury). With Correia leaving in the next three weeks and Nolasco being a question mark, the Twins are going to have open 25- and 40-man roster space. There's absolutely no reason not to give two of those 25-man slots to May and Meyer.

 

I think it's a stretch to assume Correia will be traded this month, just because he has an expiring contract (especially with Nolasco on the shelf and Pino/Deduno already covering spots).

 

If TR is anything, he is rarely predictable in such transactions. Heck, dealing Morneau was fairly obvious but it took until the end of August to happen. Otherwise, who were the last starters dealt by the Twins at the deadline? Luis Castillo in 2007? Lawton for Reed in 2001? Dave Hollins and Roberto Kelly back in the 90's, but trade returns were a lot better back then.

 

EDIT: I forgot Liriano in 2012. Was probably easier to find a beneficial deal for him rather than Correia, though.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I believe the Twins are eager to see some of their better prospects play, particularly now that they've fallen out of contention. Notice that I said that as opinion, not fact. No need to get snippy about it.

 

As for 40 man space, teams often switch out position-for-position on 40 man roster moves. Should they care about such a thing? I don't know, it just seems to be how they operate at times. Either way, I think the Twins will hold back adding Meyer to the 40 man when they know that another pitcher will be removed from the 40 man in a couple of weeks.

 

Didn't mean to come off as snippy, I just don't see the Twins are particularly eager to do anything with May and Meyer this season (except get them in the Futures Game).

 

And I really doubt the Twins are counting on opening Correia's 40-man spot -- that would indicate they plan to dump him via trade however possible. TR doesn't do dumps on a deadline -- he will hold on to the guy if the deal isn't right.

[SwainZag]

I think it's a stretch to assume Correia will be traded this month, just because he has an expiring contract (especially with Nolasco on the shelf and Pino/Deduno already covering spots).

 

If TR is anything, he is rarely predictable in such transactions. Heck, dealing Morneau was fairly obvious but it took until the end of August to happen. Otherwise, who were the last starters dealt by the Twins at the deadline? Luis Castillo in 2007? Lawton for Reed in 2001? Dave Hollins and Roberto Kelly back in the 90's, but trade returns were a lot better back then.

 

EDIT: I forgot Liriano in 2012. Was probably easier to find a beneficial deal for him rather than Correia, though.

 

 

Why would it be a stretch at all? A veteran with an expiring contract on a team out of contention and he for all intents and purposes he has pitched better as of late. I would almost say I think it would be a stretch to think he will finish this year on the team.

[JB_Iowa]

Why would it be a stretch at all? A veteran with an expiring contract on a team out of contention and he for all intents and purposes he has pitched better as of late. I would almost say I think it would be a stretch to think he will finish this year on the team.

 

I think the Twins are very willing to trade him. I'm a little more skeptical of what a team might give up to get him. I don't see him as the equivalent of Liriano because for all his problems and inconsistency, Liriano definitely had some pretty good upside.

 

Doesn't mean that Ryan won't be able to work a miracle but from what I've seen in the national media (can't find the articles back now), no one seems to have much interest in Correia. He's been better recently but who knows whether you would get Good Kevin or Bad Kevin.

[Badsmerf]

Brock you bring up the 40 man roster issue. I find part of the problem with the 40 man on the Twins (not to mention 25 man) is it contains too many guys that have no business on a building team. At this point the Twins should be completely focused on the future. If they have to cut someone like Guerrier to get Meyer up with the Twins and MLB experience so be it.

 

I know we're pretty much all in agreement May and Meyer need to be with the Twins, but my question (will start a new thread) is why does it take so long? They do this consistently with starting pitchers and it baffles me. May should have been up when Pelfrey went down because he is on the 40 man, was having a good year, repeated AA already, and a spot opened up. Instead, they gave starts to guys that have no future. That isn't what good teams do.

[Boom Boom]

Lot of good points being made here, and not to be a drip, but I've got to dig back several pages for any mention of Worley.

[Badsmerf]

Lot of good points being made here, and not to be a drip, but I've got to dig back several pages for any mention of Worley.

The points being made are in relation to Worley being release in favor of several retreads. The news with Worley is over, he is a bad pitcher that will be exposed. I really had no problem getting rid of him, rather, the philosophy and practices the Twins are currently using.

 

The discussion has taken a much more interesting turn than discussing Worely IMO.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Lot of good points being made here, and not to be a drip, but I've got to dig back several pages for any mention of Worley.

 

Who? . . . Oh yeah, that guy.

 

Not to beat the age horse, but it seems to make sense to be patient with guys like Worley (to an extent) when they are under 30, and maybe not as patient with players a bit longer in the tooth that don't seem to have it anymore (Kubel, Bartlett).

 

Ultimately, I don't think missing out on Worley is a big loss to the Twins. The age thing doesn't really matter that much either, assuming the performance is there. I just think being patient with players that are on the upward path towards their peak is better than patience for guys slowly (or quickly) sliding away from their peak years.

 

 

If they had Worley, would he have been up instead of Pino? Or would he have made that spot start instead of Kris Johnson? Or the call up to the pen instead of Logan Darnell? My guess is no on all counts...

[Willihammer]

PA had Anderson on yesterday morning and asked him about Worley:

http://www.kfan.com/media/podcast-the-common-man-KFAN_Common/79-common-man-full-show-inside-25006832/

45:20 mark

[TheLeviathan]

PA had Anderson on yesterday morning and asked him about Worley:

http://www.kfan.com/media/podcast-the-common-man-KFAN_Common/79-common-man-full-show-inside-25006832/

45:20 mark

 

Pretty sure listening to that program to get information is on the list for being awarded a Purple Heart.

 

Also, here is another link - it's at the 80:00 mark.

[Willihammer]

Pretty sure listening to that program to get information is on the list for being awarded a Purple Heart.

 

Its not a program. Its a progrum

[TheLeviathan]

Its not a program. Its a progrum

 

That progrum is a worthy allocation of time. The one it was replaying was what I was referring to....