Article: Pedro Florimon's "Limbo Line"

[Guest USAFChief]

If you want to talk about bad form and painting pictures, then at least admit that Florimon's poor numbers are due to both hitting gloves and too many strike outs. It's not one or the other, it's a combination of the two, lets just be honest with ourselves here.

I think his impoosibly bad numbers are due to a small sample from a really poor MLB hitter. The problem is, when given a really large sample, he's still going to have really bad numbers, because he's a really poor MLB hitter.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think his impoosibly bad numbers are due to a small sample from a really poor MLB hitter. The problem is, when given a really large sample, he's still going to have really bad numbers, because he's a really poor MLB hitter.

 

This. Florimon will not continue to hit this badly... but that doesn't mean he will hit at an acceptable level, either.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Hey, it helped win the Twins a game. That's great.

 

But it requires some pretty thick blinders to point out that moment and ignore the 30 other times he has failed to get on base that potentially cost the Twins a game earlier in the season.

 

Pedro Florimon hasn't only been bad at the plate, he has been an embarrassment. So bad that he has made Drew Butera look like a competent hitter. There's just no way one can ignore that.

 

There will come a point when I will no longer defend him, but I'm not there yet.

 

If the middle of the order keeps rockin' I'll tolerate a bad slash line… but *ahem* yes, for the record, he's presently at .067/.176/.067.

[Brock Beauchamp]

There will come a point when I will no longer defend him, but I'm not there yet.

 

If the middle of the order keeps rockin' I'll tolerate a bad slash line… but *ahem* yes, for the record, he's presently at .067/.176/.067.

 

I just don't see the point in defending him. He's very good defensively and very bad offensively. He's not a young prospect. He hasn't hit at any level.

 

There just isn't much upside in him as a player. Why defend that guy?

[Seth Stohs]

This. Florimon will not continue to hit this badly... but that doesn't mean he will hit at an acceptable level, either.

 

But therein lies the question and the intended discussion for this blog... based on his terrific defense, what is that "acceptable" level? I love watching Florimon play, and I loved watching Butera work behind the plate. Defense does matter and it should especially in the context of trying to improve a pitching staff.

[USNMCPO]

The Bartlett experiment screams a bit of desperation over the failure of Florimon to be able to hit. I think they see that Esco is what he is and Nunez is nothing but a stab in the dark. I really think they were hoping Bartlett would be able to come back and fill the void until they could find someone long term.

[Guest USAFChief]

The Bartlett experiment screams a bit of desperation over the failure of Florimon to be able to hit. I think they see that Esco is what he is and Nunez is nothing but a stab in the dark. I really think they were hoping Bartlett would be able to come back and fill the void until they could find someone long term.

I had the same thought. And welcome aboard, Master Chief.

[Guest USAFChief]

But therein lies the question and the intended discussion for this blog... based on his terrific defense, what is that "acceptable" level? I love watching Florimon play, and I loved watching Butera work behind the plate. Defense does matter and it should especially in the context of trying to improve a pitching staff.

If Florimon could singlehandedly improve a pitching staff, shouldnt last years staff have been better?

[Dantes929]

"You CAN have one hole in the lineup...(like in the) NL." The difference is, in the NL, every team has one hole in the lineup. " Actually, you CAN have a hole in the lineup in the AL also and more than just the pitcher in the NL. Contending teams Atlanta had 2 regular position players hit .184 or less. Cards had 1 position player hit .217 with no power. Pirates had 3 below .226. Tampa had 1 at .233, Cleveland had 2 at .225 or lower and Oakland had one at .226. Its a team game and the problem with the Twins last year is that those numbers were the norm rather than the exception. At least he DOES play good defense at an important defensive position. I agree that it is a little silly to have a guy like that be a switch hitter just like I believe it was silly to let Hicks stick with it. It just seems like the upside of batting left against righties is probably what he would bat right handed against righties so what is the point?

[Kwak]

People get blinded by perception and wear rose-colored glasses for their favorites. Reading this thread it is easy to conclude that Florimon is one of the very best fielders in decades and stops beaceau runs--and all of the potential replacements are schlubs. Neither opinion is accurate.

 

That being said, extending the leash on Florimon to the end of April should be clear, andlikely to the middle of May before "pulling the plug". Quite possibly there will be a parade of SS-candidates this season, sort of like what was done for pitchers. Eventually, the need may (will) arise to dip lower than AAA to find a SS. So be it.

[cmathewson]

But therein lies the question and the intended discussion for this blog... based on his terrific defense, what is that "acceptable" level? I love watching Florimon play, and I loved watching Butera work behind the plate. Defense does matter and it should especially in the context of trying to improve a pitching staff.

 

To answer your question, .220/.280/.320, or about what he did last year. I just think that is about as good as he gets and he's more likely to hit .200/.260/.300 over the course of an MLB season. Historically, some championship teams have been able to carry a guy like that, e.g. Orioles and Mark Belanger. But those days are over. It is no longer a viable product to have a line-up with one big hole in it.

[highlander]

If Pedro can hit .230 with a .300 OBP he is solid in my book. I think he is a cornerstone to the next Twins play off run. Toss in double digit bombs is gravy!! He is young "the wizzard of Oz" was a terrible bat for a decade before he learned to hit. Do you really think San Diego would still make that trade for G Templeton? Play the kid!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reider]

His OPS+ is 125. His OBP is .328. His SLG is .468.

 

Batting average tells only a fragment of the story, which is why it should never be used in isolation.

.191 is still below the mendoza line and below average. I"m just stating facts.

[Reider]

Hey, it helped win the Twins a game. That's great.

 

But it requires some pretty thick blinders to point out that moment and ignore the 30 other times he has failed to get on base that potentially cost the Twins a game earlier in the season.

 

Pedro Florimon hasn't only been bad at the plate, he has been an embarrassment. So bad that he has made Drew Butera look like a competent hitter. There's just no way one can ignore that.

Nobody is disagreeing that a .067 AVG is terrible. It is absolutely unacceptable at any level of baseball. However, it's April 15th, the Twins are playing .500 and people are panicking.

[Mike Sixel]

Who is panicking about what? Pedro was awful last year as a hitter, I don't think anyone is basing their opinion on the games so far this year alone.

[jokin]

Nobody is disagreeing that a .067 AVG is terrible. It is absolutely unacceptable at any level of baseball. However, it's April 15th, the Twins are playing .500 and people are panicking.

 

What people? Do you mean the MN Twins organization? Even the professional evaluators therein,

the ones who are constantly heralded as having mega-dimensional baseball knowledge relative to the average fan,

the ones who put the big money on the line,

 

find the current situation intolerable.

 

Is that what you mean by people panicking?

[Brock Beauchamp]

But therein lies the question and the intended discussion for this blog... based on his terrific defense, what is that "acceptable" level? I love watching Florimon play, and I loved watching Butera work behind the plate. Defense does matter and it should especially in the context of trying to improve a pitching staff.

 

To me, the magic OPS number is around .640-.650.

 

And I'm skeptical that he'll ever reach that number. I'm actually skeptical that he'll OPS over .600 this season. After a decent start to 2013, he only OPSed around .575 the rest of the season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

.191 is still below the mendoza line and below average. I"m just stating facts.

 

"Hitting" is not synonymous with "batting average".

 

Batting average is one aspect of hitting. There is also power and discipline, which Dozier has shown both this season and the majority of last season.

[Reider]

I think his impoosibly bad numbers are due to a small sample from a really poor MLB hitter. The problem is, when given a really large sample, he's still going to have really bad numbers, because he's a really poor MLB hitter.

Yep, as long as he keeps batting poorly, he'll continue having poor numbers at the plate. That goes without saying..

[Reider]

"Hitting" is not synonymous with "batting average".

 

Batting average is one aspect of hitting. There is also power and discipline, which Dozier has shown both this season and the majority of last season.

Dozier is a pretty good hitter. I'm not worried about him.

[Brock Beauchamp]

He is young "the wizzard of Oz" was a terrible bat for a decade before he learned to hit. Do you really think San Diego would still make that trade for G Templeton? Play the kid!!!!!!!!!!!

 

1. Florimon isn't even in the same league defensively as the Wizard.

 

2. Ozzie Smith turned the corner in his age 27 season, posting an OPS+ that Florimon hasn't approached and that hasn't changed thus far this season.

[jokin]

.191 is still below the mendoza line and below average. I"m just stating facts.

 

Brian Dozier currently has the highest OPS among full-time American League 2nd baseman- higher than Kinsler, Cano and Kipnis. Zobrist is actually higher (and is a fairly good comp to Dozier at the plate), but he'll only end up playing around 120 games at the position.

 

Once his BABIP normalizes, you're going to have one of the top hitting 2nd baseman in the league across the board, statistically speaking. The chances for Florimon to repeat the same at SS, absolutely nil.

[Reider]

Brian Dozier currently has the highest OPS among full-time American League 2nd baseman- higher than Kinsler, Cano and Kipnis. Zobrist is actually higher (and is a fairly good comp to Dozier at the plate), but he'll only end up playing around 120 games at the position.

 

Once his BABIP normalizes, you're going to have one of the top hitting 2nd baseman in the league across the board, statistically speaking. The chances for Florimon to repeat the same at SS, absolutely nil.

I'm not disagreeing. I like what Dozier brings to the table. You and Brock can argue with me until you're blue in the face, but .191 will still be below the mendoza line and below average no matter how much you try and convince yourselves otherwise. Anyways, I have a Twins game to watch, cheers.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You and Brock can argue with me until you're blue in the face, but .191 will still be below the mendoza line and below average no matter how much you try and convince yourselves otherwise.

 

This is what I said:

 

Dozier doesn't belong anywhere in this conversation. He has been an above average hitter for a full season now.

 

This is what you said:

 

Dozier is hitting below the mendoza line this year (.191). Those are not "above average" numbers.

 

Dozier is an above average hitter. You're the only person who continues to bring up his batting average as if that is the only attribute that makes a player a good hitter or not.

 

Yes, his batting average is low. Every other trait of hitting is well above average, including his overall line as a hitter.

[DJL44]

Why not give the job to Escobar?

 

Same idea. Why not flip the roles of Escobar and Florimon?

[snepp]

.191 is still below the mendoza line and below average. I"m just stating facts.

 

Yes, he has a below average batting average.

 

 

 

The vastly more important fact is that he has been a well above average offensive player.

[Reider]

Yes, he has a below average batting average.

 

 

 

The vastly more important fact is that he has been a well above average offensive player.

.180AVG after today's game. Falling even further below the mendoza line! Better stick Nunez in there. LOL

[Guest USAFChief]

Are you sure you want to go down the batting average road in a thread about Florimon?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Are you sure you want to go down the batting average road in a thread about Florimon?

 

Fun fact:

 

Brian Dozier's lowest single season batting average is .234.

 

Pedro Florimon's highest single season batting average is .221.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Fun fact:

 

Brian Dozier's lowest single season batting average is .234.

 

Pedro Florimon's highest single season batting average is .221.

 

 

Sure, BUT after today's game, Dozier's batting average is less than twice as high as Florimon's!

 

(On a side note--Jose Bautista, center field? His "play" on Florimon's "triple" single-handedly raised Florimon's SLG 50 points for the season.)