Article: Twins Acquire Infielder Eduardo Nunez From Yankees

[tobi0040]

Not from what I read at the beginning of the year, but whatever. It won't take Buxton or Sano or Meyer to get Didi, if that is the point that was trying to be made.

 

Frankly, any P they don't think is a legit starter (or even some of their potential legit starters) should be traded for a potential SS at this point. Go get 2-3 more potential SS, because right now I don't see an obvious one in the entire system.

 

I think the trade comp is difficult. The trade involved 9 players and 3 teams. So to say Didi for Bauer or Choo is not exactly accurate. Also, Bauer was and is a huge head case the D-Backs clearly factored into their trade. And Choo was a one year rental who was going to hit free agency as a Boras client.

 

I do agree that trades on the chat boards are easier than reality, but it seems to me the Twins could do a better job of finding teams with depth in areas we don't have any, and vice versa.

[PseudoSABR]

Not from what I read at the beginning of the year, but whatever.

The prospect rankings are listed on Bauer's baseball reference minors page. (Not hard to double check that kind of thing if you have some cynicism about my statement of the facts). Bauer was more highly regarded than any arm in our current system prior to his trade to Cleveland, though there were questions about his makeup. He was the third overall pick not three drafts ago.

 

The notion that you can just go out and get shortstop prospects like Didi without giving up another significant part (top 5 prospect) is absurd; if Didi costs something less than that, there's probably something wrong with him. More, it would cost something of significance to go get prospects equivalent Danny Santana or Jorge Polanco, which we already have. Of course, the Twins need to address SS longterm and you're right that depth and upside help--but it's not a matter of them simply pulling the trigger or some such.

 

Beyond singing Drew, there's very little the Twins can actually do to address there current SS depth without hampering the team's future in some other way.

 

The Twins do have depth now (in Escobar and Nunez) and have some potential in the high minors with (Santana, Goodrum and Polanco (if he can stick at SS, and they are certainly giving him the chance to)). The SS stop situation looks far better than it has been in years (though still not what any of us would like).

[Mike Sixel]

I think we disagree on the mid-term outlook for SS.....but that's ok.

[PseudoSABR]

I do agree that trades on the chat boards are easier than reality, but it seems to me the Twins could do a better job of finding teams with depth in areas we don't have any, and vice versa.

That's exactly what they did with Nunez. (And really, these kind of statements can apply to all teams all the time). There's simply not that many better SS prospects than the collection we have in the high minors already. All teams tend to covet their SS prospects.

[Guest USAFChief]

Because we are sure that Phil Hughes would comment on his former and likely near future teammate without bias?I'm pretty bad evaluating defense, particular minor league defense, but given the context, I wouldn't take Hughes' comments as evidence of much here. Hoping for Nunez to become an acceptable glove at SS might be only a slightly better bet than hoping for Florimon to become an acceptable bat.Besides, with Santana at SS in Rochester, I am pretty sure they view Nunez as a utility guy, which lowers the bar for his SS defense a bit but also lowers his potential value.

The quotes coming from the Twins seem to indicate they view him as a potential replacement for Florimon, rather than as a utility guy. Whether that works is doubtful but I dont think they got him with utility guy in mind.

[Major League Ready]

I think we all pretty much agree Pedro is not the SS of the future. The disconnect IMO is in the sense of urgency to resolve this position. Drew is an easy fix but does nothing in terms of a long-term resolution that will benefit the club when we SHOULD be competitive. The best case scenarios IMO are 1) Santana to reach his potential and if that does not happen an international signing. This should be given a year to transpire. Then, make a trade if we don't have a resolution. This is a big year for several prospects and it will be somewhat easier to envision the team of the future after this season.

[oldguy10]

Would not Polanco and Goodrum be possible shortstop solutions if Santana is not? After all the two of them are both quite young and could develop into fine players or, of course, they could both also be busts.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree Drew does not help them in the mid term. I agree they did not do enough to matter again this year to anyone (noticed they didn't say they'd be playing meaninful games in September this offseason, have they FINALLY admitted they are rebuilding?) so signing him at this point does nothing much, imo.

 

I do not agree they have even a likely SS at AA or AAA right now. I also don't see them signing and Intl FA, since they passed on Abreu who was an obvious sign this year. There are no real SS available in FA next year. That leaves getting lucky with the players they have, or trading for one, or punting the position.

[oldguy10]

Plus we now get day-to-day game comparisons between the guy who was released by the Twins so they could claim Florimon, who is also the same guy who beat out Nunez for a spot on the Yankees. This soap opera is going to get good.

 

I am amazed that no one else has picked up on this soap opera shuffling of mediocre shortstops, it is so bizarre that the entire situation is too ridiculous to even make it all up. Just check out www.baseballreference.com to get the history of the three shortstops we are talking about here.

[nicksaviking]

The prospect rankings are listed on Bauer's baseball reference minors page. (Not hard to double check that kind of thing if you have some cynicism about my statement of the facts). Bauer was more highly regarded than any arm in our current system prior to his trade to Cleveland, though there were questions about his makeup. He was the third overall pick not three drafts ago.

 

The trade happened after the prospect rankings, and AZ was already clearly down on Bauer. There was public squabbling about his workout and pregame routines and questions whether he would listen to management. AZ also clearly has management that prefers "grit and hustle" over natural abilities based on their past year's transactions. So I think Bauer's stock was down regardless of his prospect rankings, particularly when one considers that he was pretty much traded for Gregorius, who was not very highly ranked on most lists, if at all.

 

In fact, I'd think most people would argue that Matt Albers, Bryan Shaw and Drew Stubbs (the other players Cleveland got in the trade) were better than Lars Anderson and Tony Sipp (the other players AZ got in the trade.) That of course would indicate AZ and Cleveland both agreed that Gregorius was a better centerpiece than Bauer.

 

I think AZ is bat ^&*$ crazy and have no clue what they're doing currently, but that doesn't change the fact that breaking down the trade show's Bauer's value wasn't all that high.

[tobi0040]

The notion that you can just go out and get shortstop prospects like Didi without giving up another significant part (top 5 prospect) is absurd; if Didi costs something less than that, there's probably something wrong with him. .

 

 

Couple of points. In addition to Didi, he Reds gave up Drew Stubbs. He was coming off a .680 OPS and 100 SB over the previous 3 years and was and is a starting CF. Choo was a rental. And Bauer while highly ranked, refused to tinker with his delivery, which the D-Backs demanded and he refused. These things were all factors in this complicated trade, alone with 6 other players being involved. Since the trade, Bauer has 33 IP at the big show with a 5.67 ERA. Last year he had a 4.15 ERA in AAA. Maybe not tinkering with his delivery has hurt his results?

 

Lastly, I think you mean top five prospect for a team. Not a top five overall prospect. By which I would say that each teams top five prospects are not all created equally. So a package that starts around our say 7th or 8th best prospect would not be absurd. Trevor May was the Phillies top prospect and I think he slotted in at 7 or 8 immediately after the trade.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The quotes coming from the Twins seem to indicate they view him as a potential replacement for Florimon, rather than as a utility guy. Whether that works is doubtful but I dont think they got him with utility guy in mind.

 

Thanks, I hadn't read much of the official press on this move yet.

 

I guess we should find out soon, when we see how much Nunez plays (and where he plays) at Rochester.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Interesting that Nunez's minor league slash lines are very similar to Florimon and Escobar. His big advantage there seems to be K rate.

 

Of course, Nunez has over 800 PA with basically the same slash line / OPS at the MLB level, so obviously his skill have translated better. Career MLB OPS+ is 87, similar to 2012 figures from Revere, Carroll, and Mastroianni -- still not great, but definitely useful IF he can demonstrate some level of proficiency/versatility up the middle.

[jokin]

There's simply not that many better SS prospects than the collection we have in the high minors already.

 

AZ has 5 that I'd take over what the Twins have now (with the possible exception of Polanco if he turns out to in fact, be a SS).

 

 

All teams tend to covet their SS prospects.

 

Yeah, that's true, but in the Twins' case, that's more of a vice than a virtue.

[jokin]

Because we are sure that Phil Hughes would comment on his former and likely near future teammate without bias?

 

Besides, with Santana at SS in Rochester, I am pretty sure they view Nunez as a utility guy, which lowers the bar for his SS defense a bit but also lowers his potential value.

 

The quotes coming from the Twins seem to indicate they view him as a potential replacement for Florimon, rather than as a utility guy. Whether that works is doubtful but I dont think they got him with utility guy in mind.

 

Absolutely right, Chief.... and the acquisition must by implication mean that the Twins have come to the conclusion that Santana is not ready this year to make the jump. This move was an admission that Gardy's early announcement of Florimon as his starter was premature, ill-conceived with his surgery, and has been scrapped and now the competition for the spot is now officially reopened.

 

And Spycake, did you read the full quote? I thought Hughes' comments on Nunez were far meatier contextually than just a rah-rah new teammate attaboy.

[Thrylos]

Nunez had a defensive WAR of -2.1 in just 90 games last year .

 

The definition of small sample size and poster boy for the reason that WAR is not a stat that should be used to describe everything...

 

Lots of defensive metrics out there and some contradict each other. I'd love to see what James' plus/minus says on Nunez because he made 50 plays out of zone last year as well, which might off-set some of the UZR stuff...

[Thrylos]

Did you see who we have been running out to LF every day since 2008? I think the "defense first" Twins identity died several years ago.

 

I corrected that for you

[Thrylos]

. Here is a quick list of players drafted or signed as SS, who were moved. Plouffe, Dozier, and Sano. Soon to be Polanco, Nunez, Goodrum, and Danny Santana.

 

In addition to the obvious fact that Sano was never drafted, the second sentence is 3/4 false as well. Polanco moved 100% to SS this season, resulting to Goodrum moving to 3B and Harrison to the OF, Santana will stay at SS and Nunez is too early to see yet.

 

Add Cuddyer, Levi Michael and Tyler Grimes to the list of SS drafted by the Twins and moved positions...

[TheLeviathan]

I corrected that for you

 

Touche.

 

The Twins myth of "we'll always out hustle and do the little things better!" has been dead for awhile. I'm stealing Riverbrian's thunder on this, but they have been anything but the "Twins Way" for a long time.

 

And, no, that has nothing to do with their talent level. They have managed to be both untalented and undisciplined/sloppy/defensively inept for awhile now.

[Thrylos]

I disagree with your first statement. Gloves like his are special. I do agree that his bat is not up to snuff. The Twins might have one guy who has a chance to be that good (Vielma).

 

Vielma's glove is already better than Florimon's. I kid you not.

[Major League Ready]

Vielma's glove is already better than Florimon's. I kid you not.

Wow! At not yet 20 y/o that is pretty awesome. Let's hope this young man can develop the hit tool.

[Hugh Morris]

Absolutely right, Chief.... and the acquisition must by implication mean that the Twins have come to the conclusion that Santana is not ready this year to make the jump.

 

I don't see that as the implication-definitely not with the certainty you have. I don't foresee Nunez "blocking" Santana in any sense (unless Nunez is hitting well outside his norms-which I'll take). I wouldn't even call it a guarantee that he's a starter at this point.

 

Why do you find a Santana-Florimon (or Escobar)-Nunez depth chart less likely than a Santana-Florimon-Escobar depth chart?

[jokin]

I don't see that as the implication-definitely not with the certainty you have. I don't foresee Nunez "blocking" Santana in any sense (unless Nunez is hitting well outside his norms-which I'll take). I wouldn't even call it a guarantee that he's a starter at this point.

 

Why do you find a Santana-Florimon (or Escobar)-Nunez depth chart less likely than a Santana-Florimon-Escobar depth chart?

 

Not hard. The Twins now have a guy who has 4 years of ML experience playing SS. There's obviously no "guarantee", but the Twins have publicly said that Nunez will be challenging for the starting SS job in the wake of Florimon's situation. If Santana was indeed "ready", there was no reason to make this deal- and they already have a perfectly capable UTIL infielder in Escobar.

[tobi0040]

In addition to the obvious fact that Sano was never drafted, the second sentence is 3/4 false as well. Polanco moved 100% to SS this season, resulting to Goodrum moving to 3B and Harrison to the OF, Santana will stay at SS and Nunez is too early to see yet.

 

Add Cuddyer, Levi Michael and Tyler Grimes to the list of SS drafted by the Twins and moved positions...

 

It is an "obvious fact" that Sano was never drafted. That is why I said "here is a list of players drafted or signed".

 

I understand we have players that line up between the 3B and 2B defensively in our minor league system. If you read the post you would have noticed I was predicting they would not stay there. Every current prospect has a limitation or question mark about them and I could see a scenario where none ends up making it to the big leagues for an extended period of time. That was the point of the comment.

 

Look at Plouffe, he saw a majority of his reps at SS all the way through AAA before being moved.

[cmathewson]

Not hard. The Twins now have a guy who has 4 years of ML experience playing SS. There's obviously no "guarantee", but the Twins have publicly said that Nunez will be challenging for the starting SS job in the wake of Florimon's situation. If Santana was indeed "ready", there was no reason to make this deal- and they already have a perfectly capable UTIL infielder in Escobar.

 

There is another option. Depth. I expect Santana to start most of the year in Roch. I also expect Florimon to start most of the year in the majors. But if either gets injured, it would be nice to have a guy who could step in. Until then, Nunez can play several positions in Rochester.

[Hugh Morris]

Not hard. The Twins now have a guy who has 4 years of ML experience playing SS. There's obviously no "guarantee", but the Twins have publicly said that Nunez will be challenging for the starting SS job in the wake of Florimon's situation. If Santana was indeed "ready", there was no reason to make this deal- and they already have a perfectly capable UTIL infielder in Escobar.

 

There's only "no reason" to make this deal if you don't see an advantage to having a bench bat that's got a nice platoon split against lefties and who is (vaguely) able to play all around the infield.

 

I find "We'd like to replace Bartlett with another infielder and don't want Beresford [for whatever reason]" more compelling than "We've changed our mind about Santana's readiness based on 12 AAA ABs". That ignores the fact that Florimon and Escobar share similar All Glove-No Stick skillsets and having them both on the roster as UTIL types would be redundant.

 

That would hold true whether Florimon is supplanted by Santana, Drew, Hanley, Didi or Asdrubal.

[jokin]

There is another option. Depth. I expect Santana to start most of the year in Roch. I also expect Florimon to start most of the year in the majors. But if either gets injured, it would be nice to have a guy who could step in. Until then, Nunez can play several positions in Rochester.

 

Plenty of depth guys at Rochester already- UTIL guys, too. IMO, Nunez will be up or out of the organization no later than May.

[jokin]

There's only "no reason" to make this deal if you don't see an advantage to having a bench bat that's got a nice platoon split against lefties and who is (vaguely) able to play all around the infield.

 

I find "We'd like to replace Bartlett with another infielder and don't want Beresford [for whatever reason]" more compelling than "We've changed our mind about Santana's readiness based on 12 AAA ABs". That ignores the fact that Florimon and Escobar share similar All Glove-No Stick skillsets and having them both on the roster as UTIL types would be redundant.

 

That would hold true whether Florimon is supplanted by Santana, Drew, Hanley, Didi or Asdrubal.

 

I was the first to point out the platoon split way back on Page 1, but the problem is he'd have to have a partner to make it work. And not only doesn't it make sense to have another UTIL infielder when the crying need is a 4th OF who can play CF, the Twins have publicly stated they are looking for an upgrade at SS.

 

And the Twins didn't make up their minds on Santana from his 12 AAA ABs, I'm sure the mis-adventures in both ST and AAA in the field have convinced the Twins to put Santana in go-slow mode until he changes their perceptions of him in that regard- if that was not the case, they certainly could/would have placed Florimon on the DL to start out the season and given Danny a cup of coffee with the big club.

[tobi0040]

There is another option. Depth. I expect Santana to start most of the year in Roch. I also expect Florimon to start most of the year in the majors. But if either gets injured, it would be nice to have a guy who could step in. Until then, Nunez can play several positions in Rochester.

 

Maybe a possibility. But Terry Ryan does not seem likely to move a pitching prospect for utility infield depth. MS had a sub 3.00 era and was by any count the 5th to 7th best pitching prospect in our system.

[jokin]

There's only "no reason" to make this deal if you don't see an advantage to having a bench bat that's got a nice platoon split against lefties and who is (vaguely) able to play all around the infield.

 

I find "We'd like to replace Bartlett with another infielder and don't want Beresford [for whatever reason]" more compelling than "We've changed our mind about Santana's readiness based on 12 AAA ABs". That ignores the fact that Florimon and Escobar share similar All Glove-No Stick skillsets and having them both on the roster as UTIL types would be redundant.

 

That would hold true whether Florimon is supplanted by Santana, Drew, Hanley, Didi or Asdrubal.

 

I didn't ignore this fact. Florimon has options remaining, he likely would be sent down to either somehow fix his swing to meet minimal ML standards or begin the process of learning to become a UTIL player, which is what his current ability at the plate qualfies him for as a ML player.