KirbyDome89

Who is asking this team to spend like NY? I'm tired of these strawman arguments every time payroll comes up. We all understand that this club won't be a perennial top tier payroll. Yeah, they can't follow the LA or NY blueprint to success. My point is that they haven't been attempting to do so. In fact, the Twins haven't done much of anything. They've basically sat on their hands for 3 years now and their only real bout of activity was to do a partial tear down. That's not how the "big boys," operate. NY, LA, Philly, ect aren't making insignificant moves at the fringes and trotting out a failing core year after year. They aren't sitting out entire trade deadlines while in contention. They aren't waiting around entire offseasons just to sign Jay Jackson types. They aren't overly reliant on a poor development system. They aren't attempting to build an entire bullpen while convincing themselves they can contend in a bad division. The Twins have been stagnant, and when they have moved, it's been mostly half measure type transactions. Harper is an interesting example. Philly signed him as a corner OF, and he moved to 1B. The Twins roster would be better off if Larnach or Wallner were able/allowed to do the same thing. Instead, we'll watch Kody Clemens and (hopefully not much of) Josh Bell play 1B. Are the Twins settling for crumbs at 1B because as the downtrodden proletariat they're resigned to that fate, or did poor development, poor roster construction, and a delusional belief in production coming elsewhere lead them to think they could get away with that duo (or Ty France) at 1B? Harper vs. whomever sits at 1B for MN isn't apples to apples. We all know the Twins aren't going to go out and get Bryce Harper, but Ty France (or Josh Bell) aren't the Teemu version of the same thing. They're a symptom of the above issues. Josh Bell was literally Cleveland's prize offseason signing just a few years ago, so yeah, Idk. I don't really want to be Milwaukee; constantly trying to maximize the trade value of good players. The Twins don't have to do that.

If the Twins had somebody of Soderstrom's quality, and swapped him along with Jenkins for the above quartet fans would (rightfully so) revolt. That just seems like such a lopsided swap as far as talent goes, not to mention the financial burden Sacramento/Vegas would have to take on.

I quoted the whole post and even bolded the "without the money," part. The supermarket analogy is an oversimplification. I can boil a pack of ramen in my kitchen, that doesn't mean I'm attempting to operate like a fine dining establishment even though we're both technically cooking. Eh, I care about how much they're eating if they're going to cry poor and insult the intelligence of this fan base. "Thin," is relative. If you own a convenience store, the difference between $50K or $60K annually is huge. The difference between $50M and $60M is far less impactful, especially for billionaires. I just can't listen to an ownership group that's top 3-5 in all of MLB in terms of net worth cry about how they've been too generous with a payroll sitting near the bottom third and continuing to come in below their publicly declared allocation goal. It's pathetic, and that's before we even start to get into the how or why they find themselves in such an allegedly rough revenue situation.

I mean, go back one more year and it's the Twins with the high 80s win total and the other two checking in with win totals in the 70s. Idk if either team is building. Cleveland is shopping Kwan, and he's far and away their 2nd best offensive player, and the drop off is steep. Even with him in the lineup, that's a really poor position player group, and their pitching (particularly their SP) is massively overrated by Twins fans. Their bullpen obviously took a major hit as well. Detroit? Idk, maybe. What's the difference between them and KC? Their LH ace stayed healthy? They cratered in the 2nd half last year. That's kinda my point, all these clubs are slightly different variations of the same mediocre template. It wouldn't shock me at all if the Twins don't finish within 10 games of either Cleveland and/or Detroit. They're definitely more of a low floor/high ceiling club. They could completely implode with a patchwork bullpen and position players that can't hang onto a roster spot. They could also could get a bounce back season from Ober, better health from Pablo, and just enough offense to let that SP group keep them in contention for the division. Again, that's not an endorsement of that path. That's a pretty pathetic goal.

100% agree that this organization is pandering. Disagree that the division is out of reach. I'm not advocating for this club to push all their chips in, but Cleveland and Detroit shouldn't scare anybody. They're middling clubs (just like the Twins) who are relevant only because they've been blessed to be grouped in the central with other middling/dysfunctional/cheap organizations.

Honest question, how have the Twins been attempting to operate like the big boys? The Mets didn't want Bader as a 4th OF but the Twins were more than happy to give him a starting role. Philly sent Clemens packing, welcome to MN buddy. LA paid the Twins to take Margot off their hands. These are just recent team interactions, but the point is the Twins continue to attempt to plug roster holes by signing bounce back type vets. 1B and a true 4th OF spot have been a revolving door. Before that it was a slew of cooked SPs filling out the 4th and 5th spot in the rotation. Teams serious about winning, all those you mentioned above, are constantly plugging holes with replacement types like Josh Bell, hoping to prop up a crumbling "core." The Twins have failed to deliver on the development side for sure, but they've compounded that issue by continuing to invest minimal $$ and maximum time into players that have no future with the club. Their only playoff appearance in the last 5 years required a historically bad division (even by AL Central standards) just to reach 87 wins. Now they're looking to run back essentially the same squad that collapsed each of the last 2 seasons. I can't imagine any of the heavy hitters you mentioned above selling that level of complacency. Is it the Correa signing? Is that the only outlier here? How many of the big boys are paying a team like Houston to take him? Toronto has sat through some pretty lean (relative to salary) George Springer years. I'm sure there are similar examples for LA, Philly, and both NY squads. Maybe we should define what the stuffing of pockets entails because I don't for one second believe these owners aren't eating first. I'm not going to pretend to know how these valuations are estimated, but if you're attaching half a billion dollars worth of debt to the team I'd imagine that tanks it's value a bit right? Toronto isn't a huge revenue team, they're just maxing out a competitive window. They're closer to MN than they are to Atlanta or Houston in your second tier. We can work from the bottom up too. TB, Cleveland, Sacramento, Miami, Pittsburgh, and Milwaukee won't spend. You can add teams like the White Sox, KC, Cincy, and Washington too as clubs that, for one reason or another, shouldn't be spending more than MN. That puts the Twins basically where they've sat for the last decade; somewhere from 20th to 17th. I guess my bar is higher, but to me that's bare minimum, especially during what was supposed to be a window of contention. I just can't celebrate this club having a below average payroll. Twins fans have been conditioned to accept less. It doesn't have to be this way. Same deal with the Forbes valuations, but the Twins revenue was marked at $342M in 2023 and $324M in 2024. Payroll was reported at $162M and $154M respectively. Each season they spent roughly 47.4% of revenue on payroll, which is below their stated "goal," of 50-52%. More importantly though, how are they "investing beyond what revenue can support?" Where is that $170-$180M going annually? I understand there are operations costs, but that'd be an insanely high What about the additional spending required to run a deficit? Like I said, they're eating first.

I'd love it if they came with the receipts on that one.... What a load of bull****

They just can't help themselves... My favorite was the "we don't need to invest another $50-$60M into this roster right now," comment immediately followed by a "we just need to convince fans to buy in," line. Classic.

Nearly half of his XBHs came in that same stretch...

France and in particular Santana weren't anywhere close to the disaster that Bell is defensively when the Twins signed them. France played at least half of 2024 with a fractured heel too, that should be mentioned when talking about his defensive numbers that season. He absolutely did not play last season with the same physical limitations as he did in 2024, and his career numbers reflect that. Hiding Bell sounds great in theory, but that also requires the shoveling part of his workload onto a middle infield that's already stretched defensively. At some point Bell is going to have to range to his right as well. If the Twins are serious about playing Bell in the field (I don't think they necessarily are) he's going to get exposed. I just don't think you can hide such a poor defender, regardless of placement.

Nearly all of Jackson's "production," came during 5-6 game stretch, so yeah, in a 100 PA sample size that's going to skew things. If you fed him another 100+ PAs that OPS would continue to tumble.

Bell has been replacement level for the last 3 years. He's a terrible defender who will likely clog the DH spot, and assuming he's healthy and not moved at the deadline that's 500-600 PAs. It's a really poor investment both fiscally and as far as roster/playing time is concerned. You're not making incremental improvement, you're treading water, and you're burning a big chunk of your limited offseason budget to do so. To spin it the other way, what's the upside here, or what's to like? Are we hoping he returns to the 2022 version of himself? Does he suddenly figure out how to be a passable defender at age 33? This type of move is a giant nothingburger for a team that desperately needs something to propel it forward.

I mean they gave Clemens their endorsement just a few weeks ago. If they aren't playing him at 1B Idk why he's on the roster. Bell is a legitimately terrible defender. Lewis, Lee, Keaschall/Julien, then Bell might be the worst IF in baseball. Clemens isn't going to rescue them from sucking defensively, but he's a LH bat this FO can platoon and we know how much they adore that usage.

In the DH role? You could easily slide Wallner or Larnach there and get replacement or better type production. That's a better use of those 500-600 PAs. Hell, I'd rather the Twins get Julien PAs as a DH over Bell. Committing to a borderline full time DH is a tough roster move in general. The fact that Bell is such a nothing offensively makes the move even worse. Buxton, Lewis, Jeffers, ect are going to need some run in the DH spot. Bell played 30 games in the field last season. He isn't a 1B, and we need to stop treating this signing as if the Twins just stabilized the floor at that position. Bell isn't coming in and shoving Clemens off 1B.

$7M guaranteed via the one year deal. That's literally posted in write up. Idk, I trust that Bobby Nightengale has the numbers correct....

He has been replacement level for the last 3 years, how much larger does the sample size need to be before we can acknowledge that he just isn't worth the money, or more importantly, the PA investment?

This should be pinned.

Clemens will still be at first on a daily basis. He's at worst the strong side of a poor platoon. If Bell is completely cooked defensively Clemens still has 1B to himself, at least for the moment.

The Twins just spent nearly half of their very limited offseason budget on a replacement level player who is an absolute butcher at 1B and will most likely clog up the DH spot on a roster that currently has at least 3 other guys best suited for the DH role. I mean, maybe there's reason to complain here....

Relative to the league maybe, but he's bottom third for 1B and DH.

Honest question, how does any of this happen if Falvey remains in control? Also, do we want a rebuild if the decision maker who necessitated the overhaul is the architect?

Or that money is funneled into one player, or they could've swung a trade, or just signed other guys that weren't the worst possible outcome. Spending correlates with winning, that's an undeniable fact.

As a vet this FO acquired via trade. I don't disagree that Margot had way too long of a leash, but length like that hasn't really applied to any of the "young," guys outside of Lewis.

Eh, Idk about that. He barely cracked 200 PAs last year. The Twins, at least based on playing time last year, seem to be just about done with Julien.

Literally Lucy pulling the football. I'm morbidly curious to see how the FO sycophants spin Mountcastle as a positive. At $7ish million he isn't "good value."