TopGunn#22

Right now the Twins rotation projects to be a mess next season, even if they sign Berrios long term and Maeda regains his command. SOMEONE out of Balazovic, Canterino, Enlow, Ober and Duran needs to step up.

This is a trade that is inevitable. I've LOVED his time here and will probably root for whatever team gets him in the post season, but this year just didn't work out for the Twins. Move Nellie to a contender and get something back that could help us in a year or two. I'm not expecting a 1987 Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz return (remember, Alexander went 10-1 for the Tigers) but the Twins should get something "useful" for Nellie.

Either trade would be pretty good...even though I'm not overly eager to trade Berrios/Rogers. As a Twins fan #1 and a Dodgers fan #2 I would be O.K. with the Dodgers deal. Berrios is durable and dependable. May is coming back from Tommy John surgery. And Rogers gives the Dodgers a dependable LH arm out of the bullpen who could possibly close in 2022. However, even though the trade adds up in San Diego's favor, I like Hassell and Weathers. THAT would be a trade that (I can't believe I'm saying this) would be HAPPY with. Weathers is just 21. Hassell is just 19. These are guys you can build around for years. The other two are good filler with "potential." I'd make this trade.

I would rather KEEP Rogers since I think he's been the only truly reliable arm in our pen for 3+ seasons. HOWEVER, since the genius known as "Rocco" sees fit to have a "closer by committee" and we've shown all year long that Colome, Robles and company are very good at blowing games I'm more inclined to move him than keep him if the prospect haul is outstanding. Heck, if you're not going to use your BEST to close let someone else have him. This might explain why the FO failed to sign a closer of note and went with bargain basement guys. If your manager doesn't really know HOW to use a closer why employ one and then ultimately have to PAY one.

I too was a big fan of Max since he came up. His inability to use the whole field (especially against LHP) is killing him. I hate to say this, because the Pohlad's should operate us like the St. Louis Cardinals and not the Tampa Bay Rays, but Max is just too "pricey" to be a 4th OF'er. Trading him seems to be the best solution. According to Baseball Trade Values, Kepler still has a value of about 34.0. That kind of value could bring some serious talent back in a trade. Maybe Max will have his value "revised and downgraded." But at 34.0 he's got LOTS of value where you could move him for young pitching or a team with a lot of young SS talent.

I'm hoping the plan is a re-tool, but still with some major changes. You've laid the basic premise out nicely Mike8791. I'm going to go with the easy stuff first: Cut bait on Sano. Either move him at the trade deadline for a bag of baseballs (for salary relief) or simply buy him out for $2.75 million at seasons end and be done with him. Look for takers on Max Kepler. I don't think Max will ever get back to his 2019 form. I wonder how much of a mirage that was for a LOT of our players. But he is still a very good defensive RF'er. He has value and should be moved to a team looking for OF help. I would leave our catching personnel alone. Jeffers and Rortvedt are struggling offensively but should improve. Garver can be used as a catcher/1B/DH type of bat. I'm not averse to moving Donaldson for the right package. Arraez can hold down 3B and/or Miranda. Cruz COULD be dealt for the right package but I'd be O.K. if we kept him. It depends what teams would be willing to part with. I'd be happy to keep Nellie for another year. With Donaldson, Sano and Kepler gone that would be about $40-$45 million freed up. Some of that would be used to re-sign Berrios and Buxton. The rest, to plug holes. And there are plenty of holes. I don't think Simmons is back with the Twins next year. I don't think Lewis will be a SS in the future and with him missing the entire season this year he can't be counted on for anything until late next season at the best. This means serious money needs to be allocated for a long-term SS. I see Story and Baez as targets. Polanco belongs at 2B. If this team hopes to be relevant the next 2-3 years they need a SS !! One other point: I've finally, after a lot of musing, decided that between Berrios and Buxton if I keep one and part ways with the other, would keep Berrios. PITCHING is what will make the Twins a playoff-competitive team. it ALWAYS is. Look back on Twins history. In 1962-63 they pitched and finished 2nd & 3rd to the Yankees. In 1964 they had GREAT hitting, but didn't pitch well and finished 7th ! In 1965 they pitched and won the A.L. Pennant despite missing Killebrew for half the season. In 1966 & 1967 they pitched and were runner-ups. In 1969 & 1970 their pitching was good and they won the division. Fast forward to last year. They won the division because they pitched much better than they hit. We will NOT be better next year, if, as a team that has pitching issues, we trade Berrios or Rogers. We could possibly be better without Pineda but NOT without Berrios. In the entire time Buxton has been a Twin it seems like he's played in half the games. We've learned how to play without him and still be good. Are we better WITH him ?? Clearly, we are. But if I'm going to make a blockbuster and get an insane return of value for a player, I part with Buxton (who was playing like an A.L. MVP). We do NOT trade Buxton for anything less than an insane return. Someone either blows us away, or we give him a 3-year $80 million dollar contract and see what the next 3-years turns out to be. If we DO deal Buxton, acquire someone like Kevin Kiermaier to play CF if you don't think Celestino will work out. And you still have Lewis (who I think will end up in CF). There has been more disappointment/failure with this front office than successes. I must admit, I'm not very confident they can turn things around. The White Sox are crushing the division (as was predicted) despite losing Robert and Jimenez for the entire season to date. And the White Sox has some young pitchers who are impressive. Cleveland can flat out pitch. The Tigers have some very impressive young arms. This FO has to figure this out or we're looking at another decade of mediocrity. Time will tell.

I agree with Doc Bauer, this year has been a LOT like 2018. Every move the vaunted FO made for 2018 blew up in their faces. This season has been a repeat. Falvey and Levine handed Molitor a crap roster in 2018 and then used the 100 loss season to fire him. I'm not advocating for the Twins to fire Rocco, but let's be honest, Rocco has had a BAD year. Here's a wild idea...Trade Donaldson and Simmons to the Mets for Lindor. The Mets are supposedly worried about going over the luxury tax and Mets fans, based on the comments from the link are very DOWN on Lindor. Let's take Lindor off their hands. Whatever you think of that crazy idea, the Twins need to move Donaldson. They need a SS (either Lindor in the trade or a Story/Baez move next year).

Pitching is why we won the division last year. It is why the White Sox are winning the division and we aren't. To win next year and in the future, you need to build a staff AROUND Berrios. That's why, if the Twins make a blockbuster trade it should involve Buxton (ALL THAT POTENTIAL) and not Berrios. We've probably played HALF or more of our games WITHOUT Buxton since he came up. We're used to it. Berrios takes the ball every 5th day. I trade Buxton. I SIGN Berrios.

Yeah, I agree Mike. Is Arraez valuable or not ??? At this point, the way this season is going, I think the Twins need to consider dealing almost anybody. It always comes down to what the return is. Arraez or Polanco should certainly be considered. Cruz for sure---a contender will want that bat. Guys like Donaldson & Sano should be dealt just to move salary with little consideration for what we would get back. Kepler should also be heavily shopped. Now that kiriloff and Larnach are up what kind of pitching could the Twins get for Max? Plus, if you get prospects there's another $11-$12 million of salary relief. On the other hand, I just don't see they sense in trading someone like Taylor Rogers when your BP stinks and he's the only trustworthy guy you have there.

I've had hopes for this kid ever since we signed him. As tough as Buxton's luck has been with injuries, Javier is right there with him. Thank You Seth for shedding some light on a player I STILL think could be the Twins future SS.

My first thought is that it doesn't matter what the Yankees paid Hicks. The Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox etc.. can throw all the money they want around, but it doesn't mean they are "intelligent" decisions. it just means they can absorb more STUPID payroll commitments than most teams. My second thought is that HECK, if the Yankees want to pay him $200-$300 he's gone no matter what we try to do. Anyway, what if the Twins offered 4-years $72-$80 million to Buxton with a player option after two years ?? The Twins understandably need "some" protection and Buxton deserves a healthy raise. If Buxton kills it in 2022 & 2023 the Twins would need to decide if $30 million a year going forward is doable (if he kills it, they better make it doable). Buxton gets $20 million guaranteed per year for 2 years and has a chance to build his value even higher. Fact is, he's a generational talent, that for a myriad of reasons just can't stay on the field. Durability has VALUE. I really WANT to see Buxton stay here. I think he should be paid...to a point (but not paid purely on potential until he can put 2 years of healthy baseball together). I think this is a prudent and reasonable approach for BOTH Buxton and the Twins.

I would do everything I could to move Sano. SOMEBODY will be intrigued by his power and I'd take ANYTHING as long as they took on the remainder of his contract. If I could move Sano and his contract I'd consider keeping Donaldson, but if I could get a reasonable return for Donaldson as well (and I wouldn't be looking for much) I'd send him packing as well. I need the Donaldson/Sano money to try to retain Buxton/Berrios. Cruz---I love Nellie but it's time to send hi to a contender. Happ & Shoemaker--If anyone wants them GREAT. I doubt they do. DFA 'em. Simmons---Move him. Play Polanco & Gorden at SS the rest of the year. maybe give Wander Javier a look in Sept. In 2022 we either need to spend some serious money on a FA SS or consider bringing Simmons back for cheap. Pineda---He could bring something of value back. Move him and entertain bringing him back in FA. Robles---Ditto Pineda. BUXTON/BERRIOS----these guys are the absolute key to what the Twins are for 2022, 2023 and maybe 2024. We either invest in both going forward (in other words pay them handsomely) or move them both in trades that bring back a TON of young potential. Both of these guys could get some serious talent back, but it put the Twins near the bottom of the division for a minimum of 2022 & 2023. After winning the last two division titles I'm not sure I'm willing to do that. We're not as bad as we've shown in 2021, but we certainly have MAJOR roster reconstruction to consider. Our FO has failed far more than they've succeeded. We built Target Field to KEEP players like Buxton & Berrios. It's time for the Pohlad family to UP the payroll to keep this team relevant.

I still think Lewis is destined to be a CF'er so if I HAD to choose between Buxton & Berrios I would choose Berrios. Berrios is durable. As bad as our pitching is, we don't get better by giving up on Jose. Subtract Berrios from this staff and how much worse would we be ?? Finally, Target Field was built to KEEP our best players. Come on Pohlad's ! 5-years and $100 million for Berrios. Should have been done last winter. Now Buxton. As it has been mentioned by others, Target Field was built with the promise we keep our best players. Buxton is our BEST player. Even if I feel Lewis is destined for CF, Lewis could play RF just as easily. Byron's latest injury is, to say the least...frustrating. But if you're looking for a silver lining, maybe it makes him "somewhat" more affordable. I might gauge what the haul could be for Buxton in a trade, but ultimately, I want to sign him as well. Everyone has stunk---Pitchers, hitters, the manager, coaches, the front office. Indeed...total system failure. The White Sox and Indians were gearing up over the winter to put some pressure on the Twins and the best our FO could do was Happ, Shoemaker, Colome and Simmons. We could have signed Liam Hendricks, but we let the White Sox have him. Target Field was built so that the Twins could STOP with these crappy "half-measures" in building a consistent winner. We brought in a new FO to effect this stated plan. Most of what Falvey and Levine have done are still those crappy half-measures. Get Serious ! Players like Donaldson and Sano should be dealt. Cruz as well despite the fact he's our best hitter. It's time to spend some money for a real SS and a couple SP's as well and an anchor for our BP. And yes, sign BOTH Berrios and Buxton. You've developed them. They are good major league players. We're better WITH them. So keep them.

What I'd like to see in "theory." C JEFFERS RORTVEDT (Garver traded for pitching SP/BP) 1B KIRILOFF (SANO TRADED for whatever they can get) 2B POLANCO/ARRAEZ 3B ARRAEZ (Donaldson traded). SS FA Signed. STORY---The high end. BAEZ---The low end. OF LARNACH--BUXTON--KIRILOFF--KEPLER (I would do what is needed to keep Buxton and Berrios. They are the cornerstones you would build around) (Possibly trade Kepler if the deal is "right." SP BERRIOS, MAEDA, OBER, DURAN---2 FA signings. Someone like a Gausman/Stroman/Duffy and a lower end vet. BP TAYLOR ROGERS, DUFFEY, ALCALA, ROBLES--not as a closer, and I agree, 2 more FA BP signings with one of them being the guy that would be our closer. I really wanted Rosenthal or Yates...and both got hurt very early, so I would have wasted the money this year. But I still think one of those two as the presumptive closer and another steady vet arm to help stabilize the BP. I want to see CHANGE. I've loved Cruz as our DH but when the N.L. opens up 15 more slots he can go elsewhere and the DH spot can have many players rotate through. I say goodbye to Sano. PERIOD. The Twins are not as BAD as they've played this season, but they have a LOT of flaws. Build around Buxton and Berrios, cut bait on guys like Sano, Donaldson, and possibly Kepler.

I agree ! great comments and discussion. I think 6/$150 is a little high. But it depends on how close they think Balazovic, Duran and Canterino are and what they could get in a return trade. I think they need to keep him and build around him.

Obviously if you're going to trade Buxton, NOW would be the time. His value has never been higher. Clearly, the Twins have nobody who could adequately fill CF if we DID deal him (maybe Kepler ??) But despite being the 2 years running Central Champs this season is exposing the flawed roster the Twins currently have. I really like the idea of a Buxton and Sano trade package to someone like the Red Sox or anyone else looking for a CF'er as well as 1B. Maybe the Braves would be interested in playing Sano at 3B and they would move Austin Riley out to LF. Here's another angle: There's probably going to be a DH in the NL next year. Sano could DH, play some 3B and spell Freeman at 1B from time to time. I also know this: The Braves have a LOT of talent in the minor leagues and on the fringes of their major league roster. Buxton and Sano for Pache, and a couple of their young pitching prospects might do it. Then take the $$ you've saved from trading Buxton and Sano and fill other holes. Despite injuries to really "key" players the White Sox are running away from us. THAT's what the objective should be...re-tool the team to be able to compete with the White Sox. Kiriloff and Larnach are up to stay. Whether Kepler remains or is also dealt away remains to be seen. But some major "changes" need to happen with this current collection of misfits. Berrios should be the guy the Twins keep and extend. You just don't let an above average (with the potential to be quite good) homegrown pitcher get away.

At this point, with the prognosis for the season dismal, move these guys up. It's time to cut bait with Shoemaker. Happ isn't far behind. The FO isn't going to get a bag of baseballs for either. So send them packing and accelerate the progression of these young pitchers.

I could see giving Garver reps at 1B and let the kids (Jeffers & Rortvedt) handing the catching. It's time to trade Sano for anything. What we get doesn't matter. Getting his $11-$13 million off the books so we can use it for other areas. I'd trade Pineda to the Yankees TODAY (their rotation is a mess). Maybe we could get Miguel Andujar, who is looking like he's starting to find his stroke again. He'd be a 3B/LF type of RH bat. Cruz, Simmons, they need to be moved. Come next year we will need a full-time SS and there are a LOT of FA possibilities. Lewis is going to end up in CF.

Good point about Oakland dbminn. But I think Tampa is the BEST fit. And I agree with Seansy, pay Cruz's salary for the rest of this season in full if it will upgrade the one or two prospects the Twins would receive in return. That money was already budgeted for 2021...pay it and upgrade the talent level. The current group of mis-fit toys needs competition !

The above quote from Rocco is baffling. No matter how bad the Twins are playing you've got to recognize that "Shoe" just ain't the present or the future. If I was forced to keep him around I'd move him to the BP and give someone else a chance at his rotation spot.

Now that the cold, hard reality of this Twins season is sinking in (and it's a bitter taste, for sure) the FO has to determine to what extent do they re-tool. You can't trade or release EVERYONE, even though it seems like we're all just fed up with them. Sano needs to go. I don't care how little they get back, he is a prime example of addition by subtraction. SOMEBODY should be intrigued with his power potential. Maybe the Rockies after their one year look at CJ Cron is done would have some interest. I don't really care what we would get back. I just want to spend his $12 million or so next season more effectively. Kepler has been a BIG disappointment to me. I really thought he'd reach a level that he would make it tough for a Larnach or Kiriloff to dislodge him.. Not so anymore for me. But the position that is the biggest hole going into next season is SS. Simmons will be gone. Polanco is better off staying at 2B. Gordon is not the answer, and Lewis (in my opinion) will not stick at SS and will be our CF'er replacing Buxton eventually. With that in mind, and looking at only Berrios, Maeda and Dobnak in the rotation for sure in 2022, I think the biggest FA target should be a solid, veteran SS. With Cruz gone, Pineda gone, (hopefully Sano gone), possibly Kepler gone, there would be some $$$ to spend on a SS. I'm not going to advocate for a specific SS but Story, Baez, and others will be out there. Get one. I'm interested in seeing some of the young arms fill out the rotation and bullpen in 2022. Balazovic, Duran, Canterino, Jax, Ober. There are guys there with potential. I don't think any of us want to see the FO concede anything for 2022, but the White Sox have set the bar and the entire division is improving. The FO has really got their work cut out.

I'm all in favor of making some significant changes in Twins-Land. But I'm going to pass on this particular deal. Bradley has never done anything for me, just not a fan, and if Josh gets "hot" even his pricey contract will have a couple of teams needing a 3B (Mets, Brewers) very interested in adding his bat and glove to their lineup. I "get" that his contract makes him a negative value as well (I've played a bit at Baseball Trade Values) but these are contending teams looking to make a move or two to get over the hump. I can't see the Twins taking on a dumpster fire like JBjr and a pitcher currently coming off TOS. But, keep the speculation coming...casue we're gonna be dealin' !!!

I must admit, I've been very disappointed in Donaldson. He's been nowhere near what we all expected or hoped for. Last night against the Royals he had several opportunities to come up with a big hit, and came up empty each time. As it looks more and more likely the Twins will finish this year in jarringly disappointing fashion, I'm wondering what the "re-tool" is going to look like. If Donaldson is even "average" coming up to the deadline, I'd look to move him for very little return to a contender (would the Mets want him?) just to clear that salary to be used for other areas needing improvement. Donaldson, Sano, Polanco, Simmons, Kepler, Pineda, all should be involved in discussions for prospects. Maybe take a hard look at the FA shortstop market next year. A team built to defend their 2-year run as division champs shouldn't be crashing and burning with the "complete system failure" that we've seen. Kiriloff is up. Larnach is up. The arms like Duran, Balazovic, Canterino and Jax shouldn't be too far away (although Balazovic needs to get healthy). But a lot of the "dead weight" on this roster needs to be sent packing.

Any idea when they would move him to High A and if he shines there, up to AA ? His command of the strike zone is something badly needed in the current collection of Twins hitters.

I agree cHawk. Just make Rogers the closer. This "OMG, we can't have a guy close a game on back to back nights" crap is driving me NUTS ! It's like the "magic" 100-pitch count (watching the game, and holding our breath every pitch after 100, just HOPING someone like Berrios doesn't spontaneously COMBUST on pitch #104)!!! I was thinking the other night that Donaldson is due to start heating up, and yes, some "clutch" hits would do wonders for this team right now.