Battle ur tail off
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Everything posted by Battle ur tail off
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ERA well over 4, closer to 5. 4 seasons of even worse ball before last year with ERA's in the 6's. If he was better than all those guys, he would have been sought after. As such, he is NOT and is a dumpster dive. Expect him to be at best what you got out of Perez last season. At worst, he is Kohl Stewart. At least Stewart was young. Spin all you want, this is Sydney Ponson jr.
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http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm - PAYROLLS https://www.statista.com/statistics/196669/revenue-of-the-minnesota-twins-since-2006/ - REVENUE It has been said around here that Twins have a number of 52% of revenues will be re-invested in payrolls. By looking at this chart, that has not happened every year. In fact, most years its not close. Have they invested less than that? Yes, multiple times. Have they invested more than that? NO, not in this example except in 2011. However, they quickly reduced it the years following to cover that. My point is. This franchise has never taken profits from one season and used it towards payroll the next. They won't. They have to make what they have to make. If that means losing or letting guys go, they will do so. It's a business to them 100%. They hire people to make sure they don't ever mess this up. This is why people don't trust them or take anything they say at face value. They don't follow through with what they say.
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How about then, when FO keeps salaries down one season and they make bank? Yet the next season, that extra income isn't invested? Does that count? Or does that money disappear as soon as the season ends? It's quite OK, to take a hit for a season or two if you have banked up enough the prior few in order to try and win a championship. This ownership has never done that though. If they had, there would be more folks that defend them.
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I honestly don't see any of those guys listed as having very good trade value. Sano, maybe. But he is a corner IF, pushing towards playing 1B or DH. Those types are not extremely valuable. However, of this list, he is worth the most. Rosario just plays a position where it is too easy to find guys. Yes, he's a good player, but if he can't play CF, he is kind of a dime of dozen type player in the grand scheme of things. The rest of the list doesn't have much trade value I'd say. I'm sorry, but those guys are at best throw ins. They are closer to DFA material than they are being valuable trade assets. On this team currently, you have guys like Buxton, Polanco, Kepler, Buxton, Aareaz, Garver or some of their young bullpen pieces that are worth something in a trade. That is why I would rather move minor league guys if we want to upgrade our roster. Those guys are our core Also, just an FYI, guys like Nick Gordon or Jake Cave have little to no value. They are again a throw in type. Teams trading you startable ML pieces aren't going to give you them for bench player types. They just won't.
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And look what happened with that trade. The 92 Twins were a fantastic team. Smiley was a great pitcher for us. It is too bad they couldn't have resigned him after the season. That said, Neagle was good too. The other guy was a bust. McPhail was a good GM. He knew what he had in that team and did what he could to keep them as contenders. He also presided over 2 WS championships. His trades and FA signing were a large part of both of the only parades we've ever had in this town.
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If they trade any of those guys off the club, I'm pretty sure pitchforks will be out and in full force. We've been waiting for years and years and years for those guys. Been told forever to wait until they get here then we will compete. To trade them now when they are actually good and producing would be the largest slap in the face this Twins franchise has ever given their fans. I for one, would never go to a Twins game again. Also, look how long it took those guys you speak of to actually be solid MLB producers? Do we really think this next wave of prospects are going to come up and produce immediately? Certainly it will take most of them 2-3 seasons to reach their potential, if in fact, they aren't busts. I do however agree with you that this season or next, decisions will need to be made on these guys.
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I am fine with Walker or Wood. Either can be used for bottom of the rotation spots. I think it is almost imperative we sign at least one FA in that range(4-5 starter types) and trade for another. After that, I think you try your best to get someone that profiles as a #1-2-ish starter. Be prepared to give up highly rated prospects. What I don't want them to do is to get suckered into giving up any of our top 4-5 prospects for someone that isn't really top end. We don't need Robbie Ray or someone of that ilk if it takes those types of players. If we are going to use these types of players in trades, they need to be used for real top end starters. Even if it takes packaging a couple up, I think it's worth it, rather than dumping one of them for a guy that is on about the same level as Odorizi. Example - I'd rather give up Lewis and Graterol for Syndergaard, than I would give up just Kiriloff for Robbie Ray.
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I think Sano plays a full year and absolutely hammers. When he is on, this guy spits on tough pitches and hammers mistakes. Buxton, if he can stay healthy and hit, could be a game changer. That said, I'm still not convinced he is a great hitter. He needs to prove himself to me at least in this regard. Garver I just don't think can be any better. Hoping he can continue what he did last year, but he, IMO has the highest percentage of anyone to regress. Kepler I think you saw last year what he is capable of. He's a tough at bat no matter what and plays excellent defense. What a solid player he was last year. It it too bad that he had to get hurt towards the end, I think a healthy Kepler is a huge boost to this lineup in the playoffs. Polanco. Just make the routine plays in the field more often. He's a great hitter. Extremely valuable part of this team. Berrios. Do something so you don't wear down because the first part of your season, you were every bit the ACE that we have long coveted here.
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This is the part I don't understand either by that argument. What it is saying, is basically, we have no shot because we are mid market. If these large market teams are the ones winning, then shouldn't the goal be to act more like them when you can? Obviously you can't all the time, but there are rare circumstances when you've done a GREAT job putting yourself in a position to be able to do so. Positions like having almost a full roster under the age of 30 producing at a high level getting paid peanuts.
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Great post, thank you. I know we aren't wanting to talk about the past, but I think it was almost imperative the Twins had to sign one of Wheeler, Madbum, Ryu or Keuchel. I think they really missed a chance to bring in a #2-3 type pitcher for nothing more than money they had available to spend. I'm not really sure what they should do at this point? I honestly don't think it's worth trading guys like Lewis, Graterol, Kiriloff for marginal help like Jon Gray, Robbie Ray or Mathew Boyd. I think you had guys like this available in free agency that wouldn't have cost you any of your prospects. Now, if you can put a package together that protects these top guys, then by all means, bring in those arms. I think at this point, they should dumpster dive for a #5 starter, then make another trade for a guy that costs us 1-2 guys outside our top ten for another 4-5 type guy. One of Miami's guys, Chris Archer, David Price, etc. Unless, there is real top end pitching out there that can be had by using some of our top 5 guys. By real top end pitching, I mean Degrom, Syndergaard, Clevinger, Eduardo Rodriguez, etc..
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So basically what you are saying is that middle market teams can’t or shouldn’t try to win by bringing in top players or trading for them? 91 Twins don’t get a World Series win without making the largest pitching signing at that time in their history. I don’t feel buying players all the time or trading away your prospects is the right approach for a team in our type of market. Of course they have to build mostly from within. But this squad right now is in a unique spot. And I don’t think it is crazy talk for people to be asking them for a major move or 2. That is not building a team through free agency and trades, nor is it “going all in”. It is supplementing a joke grown roster that is lacking in one specific area.
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So what's your plan then? Want to sell off this core and reload up again? This team is in a unique position. They are stocked almost around the diamond. Their bullpen is in pretty good shape. They are missing 2 starting pitchers. They are sitting on all kinds of payroll money. They also have a pile of good prospects with nowhere for them to play on the major league roster. Doesn't it only make sense to push all in by getting yourself a couple of arms? I guess I just don't understand your hesitance to go for it. PS I don't have time to go back and sift through years and years of playoff data and who they acquired to get there etc. I would define success as getting yourself into at least the ALCS or the WS. Just because teams didn't win it, doesn't mean they didn't have success. I am more than certain there are a few mid-market teams that bought themselves a starter, a bopper, etc or trade for one that made some playoff runs.
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Curios. Did either of those teams have 2 only starting pitchers signed and ready to start the season? The Twins are in a poor position as it pertains to starting pitching. It doesn't matter that those teams didn't sign much or anyone to help them out. They had the help already there. This team has a hole. It's large and a very important part of any winning team. Also, you cherry picked 2 teams. Go though the rest of the teams that won WS in that time period and you will find lots of free agents picked up or impact players traded for. Twins had a unique opportunity to play with the big boys this year and didn't take advantage.
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The thing is if they are out of it in July and do actually trade these guys(which they definitely would explore), guess what you are getting back for them? PTBNL? Some teams 40th rated prospect? Rental players that are old aren't worth anything. The only reason you would trade them IMO is to accomodate them playing on a winning team. The return is probably worth roughly a dominoes large pizza. If you are talking about trading them this offseason, that doesn't make much sense. They are on 1-year deals. They wouldn't have brought them back just to trade them.
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Trading guys with expiring deals is always good business if you are not contending and don't intend to sign them back. That said, having Escobar surely would be nice right about now. I am not sure why there wasn't a larger push to get him extended, but it is what it is. He got 3/21 from them and likely was offered 2/12(something less for sure) from us. It was a case of a player and agent knowing what they are worth and rejecting another cheap Twins offers. In the trade they brought back 3 guys, one with a chance. That's a good return for an expiring deal. Once that happened, it made all the sense in the world to move him. Moving Dozier for anything you could get was a great move. Trading Pressly wasn't all that smart. It's been 2 seasons and we haven't seen any return from that one yet. If the guys we got for him were so good, we would see them by now. The pitcher is 24 and is still in AA/AAA, I'd call him a fringy guy at best. There is a reason he hasn't been flipped yet, he isn't worth anything. The centerfielder we got is another dime a dozen player. He gets on base but has no power. Profiling as a 4th or 5th outfielder his worth is also little to nothing, or course he is young so who knows. This trade was a big L.
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How do you know this? I haven't seen any evidence the Pohlads are willing to open the pocketbook. In fact, there's been evidence against it if anything. The trading of prospects has been balked at the same way it was under Terry Ryan. There isn't any proof this Front office will take any more risk than the last one either. These guys have done a fantastic job at improving the internal workings of the organization. Basically, the building from within the Twins have always employed looks to be much improved from what we are used to. I like you optimism, but until they show something, I think you are going to be swimming upstream trying to change fans mind about how the FO and ownership operate.
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The thing is though, the "stuff" isn't there yet completely. The fastball is fantastic. His slider wasn't great, it plays well only because his fastball is so good. His changeup was non-existant. He is a ways away from being dominating as a starting pitcher. I don't know why people couldn't see that by watching him last season. He needs to be able to throw that slider much more often and be able to throw that changeup for a strike at least once every 2 batters or so to be an effective starter. If not, you put him in the pen, tell him to throw as hard as he can and have him continue to work on the slider and ditch the changeup or anything else. If he can perfect that slider, have a little more command, he will be the best reliever in all of baseball.
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- brusdar graterol
- rocco baldelli
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I mean, I agree with alot of what you are saying. But, as this process has played out, it sure looks like one of 2 things. His agent wasn't able to gauge this market correctly, or(heaven forbid this would kill a lot of people's arguments), he wasn't that wanted and the Twins QO was a good decision for him. Thus the folks saying he is better than Wheeler, Madbum, better than Ryu, etc. are making excuses for this FO, when if fact, he just isn't as wanted as any of those guys
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They have 10 days to negiotate with other teams to gauge market value. It's in the rules. His agent didn't do a very good job on this.
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Read please. I'm getting blasted for this, but seems as though some haven't read the rules. If his agent didn't use those 10 days to figure out his market value, he's bad. In fact, if I was Odorizzi with how this offseason has played out, I'd fire the guy right now. He did his client a huge disservice. He should have been shown the money this season. http://m.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/qualifying-offer
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Read how the process works. They have 10 days once it is offered in order to negotiate with other teams to gauge their market value.
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My point is that if they are so much better than guys that are making 4X the money they are, why didn't any other teams approach them? We have read that as many as 5-10 teams are in on all these starters? How come none of them came after our boys that are BETTER as you say than the rest of that bunch? Other GMs and organizations must not know as much as our guys do. I'm sorry I forgot all about that.
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They had the choice to sign elsewhere, yes they did. What they didn't have were offers significantly better than what we gave them. If there were that wanted, we'd have had to pay more for them.
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Then you are smarter than every GM is baseball. Ordorizi was out there for anyone and everyone to bid on before he accepted our QO. They have 10 days once it is extended. Funny there wasn't anyone out there willing to make him a better offer than that if he is better than those guys?????
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There's 5 rotation spots. That is all.
