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    Pete Rose Sinned Against Baseball. And That's Enough.

    On the field, Pete Rose was everything a ballplayer should be. He was also the exact thing no ballplayer should be, on the field: compromised.

    Greggory Masterson
    Image courtesy of © Albert Cesare/The Enquirer / USA TODAY NETWORK via Imagn Images

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    Pete Rose should not be in the Hall of Fame. He should not be celebrated. As a player and a manager, he committed a cardinal sin against Baseball. He broke the game's Golden Rule. It's obvious, but lately, it seems to have become almost a secondary talking point. We should fix that.

    I’m not here to talk about Rose’s off-field foibles. Between you, me, and the wall, I fall more on the side of ignoring those things in reference to Hall of Fame candidacy. What Rose did as a player and as a manager (i.e., on-field), however, requires Baseball to permanently excise him. It shouldn't be any more complicated than that—and the stain of his sins hasn't faded with time.

    I’m not breaking new ground here. I don’t have any secret insight. But I want to talk about gambling—the one thing Baseball has ever put its foot down on.

    When people talk about Rose’s great sin against Baseball, it’s often framed around his moral character. We borrow the Golden Rule label from world religion and philosophy as a euphemism for gambling on baseball. We use words like “the integrity of the game.” But the “integrity of the game” isn’t some moral standard; it’s a pragmatic one. When we say integrity, it’s not about doing the right thing; it’s using the original definition—the structural foundation of the sport.

    The day that gambling seeps onto the field of play is the day Baseball dies. This isn’t about right and wrong. It’s about the game continuing to exist.

    Intrinsic to our love of baseball—and sports in general—is a basic assumption: anything can happen. Two groups square off in a battle of wits, talent, effort, strength, and guile. May the best man win. Any given Sunday. Whatever the coach in Miracle said. And we have the pleasure to watch it play out.

    That’s why we buy tickets. It’s why we pay for an entire yearlong cable package subscription just to watch our hometown nine play all summer. We get to watch the best athletes in the world do what they’ve trained for decades to perfect—and we don’t know how it will end. It’s sweet. It's heartwarming, even, to watch our favorite boys win. And it’s agonizing—heart-wrenching even—to watch them lose. Much of that emotion is learning our favorite team’s fate in real time. We ride the roller coaster along with them. They go up, and so do we. They plummet down, and so do we.

    But what if it was all preordained? What if there were no feats of strength or clever tricks or mental games? We would, instead, be watching WWE, or a low-budget movie.

    Now, there’s nothing entirely wrong with WWE or cheap films as a form of entertainment, but that’s not baseball. It’s not Baseball.

    Don’t get me wrong; one single person gambling on the games that they play or manage, whether they’re only betting on their team to win or not, isn’t enough to transform MLB into professional wrestling. But the true structure isn’t the only thing that matters, either.

    As soon as the people stop believing that the game in front of them is real, it’s as good as dead. That’s what Baseball is fighting against. It's why the game needs to take these sins seriously. It doesn’t just make you feel icky; it threatens the institution.

    Those who threaten that game need to be banished. They’re damned. There’s no purgatory for those who break the one rule. It’s nothing personal; just business. You cannot be associated with the sport after doing something that threatens to ruin it. It does not matter how many hits you had or how hard you hustled or how much children loved you. You voluntarily chose to separate yourself from Baseball. You committed a mortal sin.

    And yes, that sin against Baseball is far worse than other popular sins against Baseball. Steroids don’t hold a candle to the dangers associated with gambling. The winners being the baseball players who take the most drugs is a time-honored tradition, and the games are still decided on who is the best, strongest, and most focused. That’s far preferable to the winners being the players the gamblers choose to win that day. Wanting to win so badly that you cut corners is a crime; being willing to trade the drive to win for profit or the satiation of some darker urge is a worse one.

    The league aligning itself with gambling services as advertisers is also a separate topic, my own thoughts on which aren’t relevant here, but it’s brought up as a strawman in this discussion so we might as well address it. Put simply, the league encouraging fans to gamble has no bearing on the game on the field. If there’s ever evidence that the league is influencing games for any gambling-associated purpose, I want all involved parties burned at the stake, as well. But until that happens, MLB partnering with those services is irrelevant.

    There is no coming back from what Rose did as a player and as a coach. Gambling on the game (specifically) does not make him a bad person. But it does make him a sinner against the sacred game. Baseball, with a capital B, cannot afford to welcome Rose back into the fold. That’s why it’s Baseball’s Golden Rule. Not petty morality, but an existential guard against ruin. Rose's faults of character away from the park are between him and eternity, now. His gambling is very much between him and the game—and it needs to stay there, holding the two separate.

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    As much as I detest how gambling has permeated the entire sports ecosystem, fans betting on games is in no way comparable to players or managers, or player-managers, gambling on games they have direct influence over. In my opinion this is an extremely lazy attempt to brush what Pete Rose did under the rug.

    11 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

    Have some athletes gotten away with worse over the last 150 years?

    None come to mind. Pete Rose is the only Hall of Fame caliber player who ruined his career by violating the only rule that has a lifetime ban as a punishment. Pete Rose is a like a package of all the bad traits of every other sketchy candidate all rolled up into one person. I guess he wasn't an overt racist, so he has that going for him.

    1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

    None come to mind. Pete Rose is the only Hall of Fame caliber player who ruined his career by violating the only rule that has a lifetime ban as a punishment. Pete Rose is a like a package of all the bad traits of every other sketchy candidate all rolled up into one person. I guess he wasn't an overt racist, so he has that going for him.

     I mean...Ray Lewis killed people. Lawrence Taylor is a sex offender. Do they count?

    I don't know Pete Rose, and he certainly never wronged me in any way. His prime was long over before I was born. He's dead. He can take no pleasure in any respite from hate, yet comment after comment drips with hatred and vitriol, eager to demonstrate the virtue of the commentor. Perhaps we should take his rotting corpse and hang it from a tow truck to haul it across the country from state fair to state fair. Sell tickets to commentors for $2 to take a swing and beat it with a baseball bat so as to demonstrate refined moral superiority while proving their virtue?

    When it comes to Pete Rose and his relationship to baseball, his contributions are unquestionable. He's the all time leader in hits, RoY, MVP, and has accumulated 80 career WAR while being one of the most popular players of all time, representing the game and drawing in fans an insane 17 times as an All Star.

    His behavior also critically damaged baseball. It was a series of massive sucker punches to fans, and he also risked a potentially catastrophic impact if fans believe play was all showmanship and entertainment rather than a competitive sport. As far as the non-baseball related claims against him, they're paper thin, but no type of claim is more powerful so it's not surprising it's been so intently weaponized.

    For whatever reason, Americans have both been taught and embraced the concept of persecution or acceptance. If a person isn't willing to actively persecute somebody they don't know, and demonstrate outrage while demanding endless vengeance for behavior which did not personally injure them in any way, it means the person is actively endorsing the harmful behavior, and therefore must also be persecuted. 

    Of course, it's all intensely hypocritical, but it makes an American feel good to judge themselves to have superior value in society while seeking an active minority group to persecute. We're not allowed to persecute based on skin color or sex or gender or body shape or hair color or smoking status anymore. Who can we find? Somebody, certainly, and it's our duty to destroy those people to demonstrate moral superiority. 

    It saddens me a little to see people so bent out of shape over somebody they don't know who did nothing to them, hasn't been relevant in 40 years, and is now dead (or somebody who hasn't played in 100 years for that matter). Rose paid and paid again for his actions. I can't comment as to whether or not he regretted his actions, but I suspect being widely hated after having been so beloved and honored was probably a truly never ending horrible experience.

    I don't have a vote, and I'm not sure how I would vote. I'm quite positive I won't lose any sleep over it.

    49 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

    This is a slippery slope many people like to be very picky/choosey on. You could mention quite a few individuals from a variety of sports, and their HOFs, and come to the same conclusion. Also, have you done research on every player in baseball's HOF? Did anyone else have character concerns or a history of crime? Have some athletes gotten away with worse over the last 150 years? Professional athletes need to be looked at as such when this process occurs every year. I battle the same concept with Michael Jackson. I have to only listen to his music as a musical prodigy. If you are going to judge everyone, then judge EVERYONE. 

    As I said earlier, if there are people like that in the hall of fame, then putting more people in who are at least as bad (and probably worse) doesn't make the situation better.  It only makes it worse.  Gosh, someone blew it a few years back. . . . let's do it again!  The whataboutism is what the real problem actually is.  Either the rules matter, or they don't, or they don't when we don't like it. 

    34 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

     I mean...Ray Lewis killed people. Lawrence Taylor is a sex offender. Do they count?

    Are they in the Baseball Hall of Fame?  When did that happen?  They really need to institute a policy that you had to play the actual sport to get in.  This is a travesty!

    I exaggerate for effect, but the reality is that making additional mistakes after making some isn't going to help make things better. 

    1 hour ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

    Let's see.  It took Shoeless Joe Jackson how long after his career (and death) to be reinstated before being considered for the HOF?  Let's have Pete Rose wait that long as well.  I would prefer never, but I'm willing to compromise. 

    I like this idea. Rose can go in after everyone who ever knew him is long dead and the historians are the only people left who care. Pete Rose, HOF 2130!

    1 minute ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

    Are they in the Baseball Hall of Fame?  When did that happen?  They really need to institute a policy that you had to play the actual sport to get in.  This is a travesty!

    I exaggerate for effect, but the reality is that making additional mistakes after making some isn't going to help make things better. 

    ^ (If you read my entire post it might help)

    1 minute ago, cmoss84 said:

    ^ (If you read my entire post it might help)

    I did.  You were implying that in fact others may have done worse so therefore it wasn't so bad and then quoted players from another sport.  If I have misinterpreted that, I apologize, but that is how I took it.  I am willing to agree to disagree on Pete Rose, but I really don't want to exalt the guy who was publicly guilty of a number of pretty terrible things.  Admittedly, his rhetoric and behavior post retirement didn't do anything to endear me to him either, so I see no redemption in that.  YMMV.

    41 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

    I don't know Pete Rose, and he certainly never wronged me in any way. His prime was long over before I was born. He's dead. He can take no pleasure in any respite from hate, yet comment after comment drips with hatred and vitriol, eager to demonstrate the virtue of the commentor. Perhaps we should take his rotting corpse and hang it from a tow truck to haul it across the country from state fair to state fair. Sell tickets to commentors for $2 to take a swing and beat it with a baseball bat so as to demonstrate refined moral superiority while proving their virtue?

    When it comes to Pete Rose and his relationship to baseball, his contributions are unquestionable. He's the all time leader in hits, RoY, MVP, and has accumulated 80 career WAR while being one of the most popular players of all time, representing the game and drawing in fans an insane 17 times as an All Star.

    His behavior also critically damaged baseball. It was a series of massive sucker punches to fans, and he also risked a potentially catastrophic impact if fans believe play was all showmanship and entertainment rather than a competitive sport. As far as the non-baseball related claims against him, they're paper thin, but no type of claim is more powerful so it's not surprising it's been so intently weaponized.

    For whatever reason, Americans have both been taught and embraced the concept of persecution or acceptance. If a person isn't willing to actively persecute somebody they don't know, and demonstrate outrage while demanding endless vengeance for behavior which did not personally injure them in any way, it means the person is actively endorsing the harmful behavior, and therefore must also be persecuted. 

    Of course, it's all intensely hypocritical, but it makes an American feel good to judge themselves to have superior value in society while seeking an active minority group to persecute. We're not allowed to persecute based on skin color or sex or gender or body shape or hair color or smoking status anymore. Who can we find? Somebody, certainly, and it's our duty to destroy those people to demonstrate moral superiority. 

    It saddens me a little to see people so bent out of shape over somebody they don't know who did nothing to them, hasn't been relevant in 40 years, and is now dead (or somebody who hasn't played in 100 years for that matter). Rose paid and paid again for his actions. I can't comment as to whether or not he regretted his actions, but I suspect being widely hated after having been so beloved and honored was probably a truly never ending horrible experience.

    I don't have a vote, and I'm not sure how I would vote. I'm quite positive I won't lose any sleep over it.

    Wow. 

    It's not complicated. He bet on baseball. That's it.

    Yes I think betting as a manager and player is very bad... Most likely influencing decisions that had consequences on a game and also players getting used on days when they needed rest.... His defiance towards baseball hurt his chances because it showed a lack of respect for the commissioner. I still think he should be in the HOF... We don't know all the players that have cheated or done things against the game. Probably more than we'd like to know. I've been very critical of players during the steroid era and I think that is a different kind of low... Even though some of those guys would have been in the HOF if not implicated or honest about using. I'm sure there are Hall of Famer's who cheated in some way and didn't get caught.

    2 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

    This is a slippery slope many people like to be very picky/choosey on. You could mention quite a few individuals from a variety of sports, and their HOFs, and come to the same conclusion. Also, have you done research on every player in baseball's HOF? Did anyone else have character concerns or a history of crime? Have some athletes gotten away with worse over the last 150 years? Professional athletes need to be looked at as such when this process occurs every year. I battle the same concept with Michael Jackson. I have to only listen to his music as a musical prodigy. If you are going to judge everyone, then judge EVERYONE. 

    Nope. We don't have to consider every other possible scenario as it relates to every other player or circumstance in order to judge Pete Rose. That's the ultimate "whataboutism" that inevitably lets everybody off the hook for their actions. Voter failures in the past aren't an excuse for doing the wrong thing NOW.

    It doesn't matter what the NFL or Basketball Halls of Fame do or don't do; different institutions, different rules, different games. Doesn't matter that Michael Jackson was a messed up dude who has been credibly accused of heinous acts. The fact that many gifted people have also been horrible people is irrelevant.

    Pete Rose should be judged on the acts and character of Pete Rose. And while he accomplished many remarkable things on the baseball field as a player, he also broke the cardinal rule of baseball and was deservedly banished. He's already represented in Cooperstown as part of the museum showing the history of baseball; induction into the Hall of Fame is an honorific that he is unworthy of because of his own acts in gambling on baseball.

    I can understand MLB taking him on the "ineligible" list after he died; he's now permanently ineligible to participate in baseball. I don't think announcing it was in any way wise or good judgment, just cowardice from a flunky of a commissioner. But that's a different issue.

    Kind of off topic, but Joe Jackson had 12 hits in the 1919 World Series, committed no errors and threw out a runner at the plate.   

    Folks should read  "Eight Men Out" to get a complete look at the 1919 Black Sox scandal.

    The  Hall of Fame does have the famous character clause:

    "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

    Of course, it doesn't specify that integrity, sportsmanship, character has to happen only on the field, and it doesn't specify that those same traits shouldn't be judged off the field. Steroid users and Nazi sympathizers who have had great MLB careers have gotten wrapped up in this morality clause. The always trite logic of "so-and-so got in, a bad guy, and thus THIS guy should get in too," frequently gets cited. 

    Personally, as someone fortunate enough to have visited Cooperstown a few times, I have seen plenty of displays referencing Rose, or Shoeless Joe, among the infamous. To me, that's doing them justice. Being selected to the Hall is an honor, and I don't see why we should feel compelled to honor them. 

    IMHO.

    I admit to being a little torn on this topic. I have no skin in the discussion as I respected Rose as a ballplayer, but can't say I was ever a fan. Despite being a Christian and person that does his very best to be moral in everything I do in life...the best I can...I think there is a definite distinction between FORGIVENESS and opening a door to a reward.

    Rose deserves to be in the HOF as part of MLB history. And it's my understanding that he is represented as such. Therefore, in some capacity, he is already "imortalized" in the Hall. But regardless of off the field incidents and a general belief and acceptance of him just not being a good person, the fact is that as a PLAYER and MANAGER, he violated the #1 cardinal sin of MLB. Whether he was a gambling addict or someone who just believed the rule didn't apply to him, he repeatedly broke that #1 rule. He is already enshrined in history, but he doesn't deserve to be enshrined in that special way in which he's ELECTED in to the Hall.

    I DON'T want to derail the thread! But the steroid issue has been broached already, and has some similar bearing on this discussion as a result. 

    I don't like liars or cheaters. To this day, I'm a little unclear as to the actual rules in place when the steroid controversy became uncovered.

    On a strictly personal note, I'm fully in favor of HGH and steroids to be used for MEDICAL purposes for ANYONE, including professional athletes, to recover from injuries or medical conditions. I am NOT in favor of such treatments for enhancement for performance! Only for medical recovery.

    I can only speculate without proof that will undoubtedly never be uncovered, but in cases of steroid and HGH players such as Bonds and Clemens, will we EVER know when they started? They were so good, and so dominate, their early careers were probably HOF worthy. Did they always use? Or did they only use in their mid 30's to prolong their careers when they might have already been legitimate HOF inductees?

    Again, we're probably never going to know. And IMO, it does create a gray area that I don't have an answer to. I wish I did. But until someone can provide any answers, or a better arguement for induction, I guess I have to follow those players down the Rose path. They get their mention in the Hall as part of history, without receiving the actual ELECTION to the hall.

    It's really a shame brought on by themselves. Because a couple of these guys might have been elected due to their performances when "clean".

    What if you knew 25% of your heroes were frauds, rules breakers, criminals, etc.? Would you want to know?

    I know this is off topic. Just interested.

    PS hard to believe for some, but many people outside of MN do not like Kirby Puckett. 

    21 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

    What if you knew 25% of your heroes were frauds, rules breakers, criminals, etc.? Would you want to know?

    I know this is off topic. Just interested.

    PS hard to believe for some, but many people outside of MN do not like Kirby Puckett. 

    Quite honestly, I was disappointed by my hero when I was 8, so I just stopped having heroes.

    8 hours ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

    Pete Rose Signature

    Did he try to charge Manfred for the autograph?  Wouldn't really be shocking in his case. 

    He was only contrite to sell books and make one last attempt to get in.  He deserves his fate. 

    People will say "what about this guy or that guy?".  I don't care.  Rose was repeatedly a scumbag in numerous situations, not just while he was a manager.  Putting more people like that in doesn't make it better.  It only makes it worse. 

    Amazing...bravo!

    7 hours ago, bean5302 said:

    I don't know Pete Rose, and he certainly never wronged me in any way. His prime was long over before I was born. He's dead. He can take no pleasure in any respite from hate, yet comment after comment drips with hatred and vitriol, eager to demonstrate the virtue of the commentor. Perhaps we should take his rotting corpse and hang it from a tow truck to haul it across the country from state fair to state fair. Sell tickets to commentors for $2 to take a swing and beat it with a baseball bat so as to demonstrate refined moral superiority while proving their virtue?

    When it comes to Pete Rose and his relationship to baseball, his contributions are unquestionable. He's the all time leader in hits, RoY, MVP, and has accumulated 80 career WAR while being one of the most popular players of all time, representing the game and drawing in fans an insane 17 times as an All Star.

    His behavior also critically damaged baseball. It was a series of massive sucker punches to fans, and he also risked a potentially catastrophic impact if fans believe play was all showmanship and entertainment rather than a competitive sport. As far as the non-baseball related claims against him, they're paper thin, but no type of claim is more powerful so it's not surprising it's been so intently weaponized.

    For whatever reason, Americans have both been taught and embraced the concept of persecution or acceptance. If a person isn't willing to actively persecute somebody they don't know, and demonstrate outrage while demanding endless vengeance for behavior which did not personally injure them in any way, it means the person is actively endorsing the harmful behavior, and therefore must also be persecuted. 

    Of course, it's all intensely hypocritical, but it makes an American feel good to judge themselves to have superior value in society while seeking an active minority group to persecute. We're not allowed to persecute based on skin color or sex or gender or body shape or hair color or smoking status anymore. Who can we find? Somebody, certainly, and it's our duty to destroy those people to demonstrate moral superiority. 

    It saddens me a little to see people so bent out of shape over somebody they don't know who did nothing to them, hasn't been relevant in 40 years, and is now dead (or somebody who hasn't played in 100 years for that matter). Rose paid and paid again for his actions. I can't comment as to whether or not he regretted his actions, but I suspect being widely hated after having been so beloved and honored was probably a truly never ending horrible experience.

    I don't have a vote, and I'm not sure how I would vote. I'm quite positive I won't lose any sleep over it.

    Bean, some things are just plain wrong and time can not change that fact. I don't know if you are old enough, but I watched this whole drama play out in real time. I saw the cocky Pete lying through his teeth until the weight of evidence forced him at last to change his tune. I saw him fail time and time again to offer any true contrition. And I remember the toll he took on MLB Commissioner Bart Giamatti, a great man who may have been driven to his early grave in part by the stress that Pete's situation undoubtedly caused him. He's "paid and paid again for his actions" to you, but not to me...never. 

    4 hours ago, UpstateNewYorker said:

    Kind of off topic, but Joe Jackson had 12 hits in the 1919 World Series, committed no errors and threw out a runner at the plate.   

    Folks should read  "Eight Men Out" to get a complete look at the 1919 Black Sox scandal.

    I think there's good evidence that he took $5,000 from the gamblers (worth over $90,000 today) to keep quiet about what he knew was happening. Not a good look...

    2 hours ago, Greggory Masterson said:

    Quite honestly, I was disappointed by my hero when I was 8, so I just stopped having heroes.

    Most true heroes these day fly under the radar, I think. People who "walk on through the wind" and rain. People who do what needs to be done and never ask for thanks and never wonder why.   

    7 hours ago, bean5302 said:

    It saddens me a little to see people so bent out of shape over somebody they don't know who did nothing to them, hasn't been relevant in 40 years, and is now dead

    You accuse everyone else of being self righteous and then write this drivel? My eyes hurt from how hard you made me roll them.

    3 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

    What if you knew 25% of your heroes were frauds, rules breakers, criminals, etc.? Would you want to know?

    I know this is off topic. Just interested.

    PS hard to believe for some, but many people outside of MN do not like Kirby Puckett. 

    Many people from Minnesota don't like Kirby Puckett. I don't like Kirby Puckett. 

    I think he was actually a pretty bad Hall of Fame selection, ignoring his shade post career character issues, needing a lot of bonus points for the World Series to justify his inclusion. 

    With his off the field issues, I have no positive thoughts about the man. I am just young enough that the world series moments are merely highlights. 

    Had those stories broken one year earlier he'd look a lot less like a hall of famer than fellow domestic abuser Andruw Jones who, if he doesn't get in, has his own demons to blame. 

    This is a very complicated topic.  Those who think otherwise are firmly on one side or the other and will never change their minds.  I get that.  I have given thumbs up and thumbs down for various comments but that just means I disagree or agree with the comment.  I try to appreciate good insights given whether I agree with them or not.

    I grew up in the 1960's and 1970's.  Pete Rose was a part of that.  Whether it was baseball cards, watching baseball on TV, Strat-O-Matic baseball with friends, there was always a Pete Rose presence because someone always had a "Big Red Machine" team.

    Pete Rose is such a contradiction to me.  I admired the way he played the game, so I played baseball and softball much like he did (minus a couple thousand hits).  But my personality and his couldn't be further apart.  That he was an arrogant and self centered man is not debatable.  He was nothing like I aspire to be as a husband, father, grandfather, son, brother or friend. 

    I will always admire how Rose played the game.  I will always be disappointed in his shortcomings.  Whether he ever gets into the HOF will not change my life in any way.  The only guy I ever ached for getting into the HOF was Tony Oliva.  It just bugged me he had to wait so long.   

    As I've grown older, I've tried to be less judgmental and more forgiving.  It's just easier to go through life without a visceral hatred of something or someone.  That doesn't mean I've forsaken discerning right from wrong.  As a Christian, it just means I pray more, for friends and family as well as for those I feel are sinners and who also need the prayers (that includes myself).

    I used to be dead set against any PED users being in the HOF.  While not campaigning for any of them to be inducted, I also won't rush to Cooperstown, dressed in black with a mask covering my face, and burn down the HOF if any of them get in.  

    If Rose gets in (and Shoeless Joe for that matter) I will appreciate what he/they accomplished, but would embrace a plaque that highlights the good but also addresses the bad.  If he/they never get in, I can accept that as well.  My life will not be diminished in any way either.  I will still enjoy the game of baseball.  




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