How Good Has Twins First Baseman Ty France Been So Far?

23 hours ago, Hrbeks Divot said:

While I’d much rather have a $20M first basemen that can mash and play solid defense, this is the choice the FO made for 1B and I’m satisfied with what he’s given the Twins for $1M. I don’t see a traditional 1B of the future in the system so unless they decide to sign a free agent it’s likely what we’ll get moving forward as well.

How many $20 Million first basemen are out there who can mash and play solid defense AND still be worth $20 Million by the end of the lengthy multi-year contract that a $20 Million first baseman is going to command?

20 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

Sano is an easy target for some people, but the reality is when Sano was healthy he hit, and produced on offense. It might not have been in a style that you approve of, but the production was there and the contract he signed wasn't a terrible one...he just couldn't stay healthy. Was some of that maybe his own fault, due to less than elite conditioning? Maybe, but no one can prove it one way or the other. (there's no questions about Buxton or Correa's conditioning, or Joe Mauer's, but they've struggled to stay healthy too)

BTW? through 7 seasons Sano was worth 8.9 bWAR. Ty France is currently at 8.3 in his 7th season, with basically the same number of games, PA, etc.

Not to mention, has there been a Twin, other than Sano since Kirby retired, that made you stop whatever else you might have been doing when he came to the plate, turn off the lawn mower, stop doing the dishes, the laundry can wait, put the broom down, turn off the power saw, stop working on the car, let the kid cry, the guy might strike out but he also might hit it 498 feet and ya gotta see that.

11 hours ago, bean5302 said:

he made the team in part because the organization doesn't have any faith in Miranda.

Miranda has done a great job this season justifying that lack of faith. He has a 523 OPS in hitter-friendly St. Paul.

16 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Yeah, it's shallow.  The even bigger concern to me is where do you even look to find an upgrade?

For as long as he remains hot or even measurably better than France, you look to Clemens and sit France.

18 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm not a money guy... Not at all. I'm the guy who is counting the pre-arb players on other teams and counting ours and saying Oh Oh... we got a problem because I know that we can't be the Dodgers. 

France is not the biggest problem... I'm not going to even call him a problem specifically as he stands there all by himself. Ty France has the right to compete for major league employment just like Ryan Fitzgerald or Walker Jenkins has a right to compete for major league employment.  

I'm not making an argument against France... I'm making an argument over needing someone like France. I'm augmenting the scope of that argument by saying that France is playing EVERY DAY and is needed to play EVERY DAY and his numbers are average at best, most likely below average and he looks above average in comparison to what we have surrounding him.

I have high hopes for Keaschall, he looked great when he arrived and but then again so did Julien.

Ultimately... the Twins need to fix this because the bill will come due and we will be standing here with a room full of France type players that no one will take at the deadline when we are selling as our cross checkers are wondering who to draft 2nd overall in the 1st round of the following years draft. 

That's the bill that comes due. 

  

I think I get what you are trying to say: You are concerned the Twins will become or are a team full of "Ty France players". I understand that, and with a financially capped team it makes sense. But that is not the Twins. They have talent with higher expectations that either are injured or just not producing. Ty France would look totally fine batting 7th or 8th in this lineup if Wallner, Correa, Lewis, and Castro were healthy and/or producing at expected levels.

My point is that every MLB team will have a handful of spots (including starters) that are stopgap players filling a position of need. The Twins have had success filling the 1B spot over the last few years while waiting for someone in MiLB to stop up and grab it. Miranda, Julien, now maybe Keaschall.
 

France has been a real solid addition, especially at basically league minimum. Imagine where we'd be if they had to rely on Miranda and Julien as our first base options! I'd like to see the Twins develop a true first baseman long term. Larnach, Mccusker, maybe Keaschal. If not, a FA signing would be nice so we don't have this revolving door at first base year after year.

5 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

have we failed to develop an alternative because the front office is bottlenecking the process by being unwilling to risk it.

No. This is an absolutely ridiculous theory. 

Looking at the OF because I seem to remember this theory bought into and a lot of people upset, or maybe disappointed when the Twins hired Bader. Keirsey wouldn't magically be a competent player if he received 100 more PAs this season. Likewise, Emmanuel Rodriguez wouldn't be playing incredibly if he were at the majors instead of AAA. 

21 hours ago, Linus said:

I think this is a false question. France is meeting what is reasonably expected of him at a low price. So good for Ty France - I’m not going to be critical of him. However it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t expect much more from this position. I know they aren’t signing Pete Alonzo but they can make a trade or develop one a first baseman that can hit. I reject the premise that “good value” from France is anything we should celebrate or even accept. 

Who the **** is Pete Alonzo? 

19 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

... I'm not trying to tear Ty apart. I'm tearing the need for Ty apart. 

You keep doing this, and I really just don't know what the hell you want. Yes, a major league baseball team will need to hire externally from time to time. No major league roster is filled completely internally. None. Not since 1971 or something like that. 

You sound like a philosopher, unconcerned with the current situation and more interested in the abstract ideal. No one disagrees that it would be better if a team could develop all-stars at every single position and pay them the league minimum. 

17 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Keirsey could have vastly improved our OF in '24 & could have adapted to the MLB pitching going into '25. 

Lol. You're still on this after we've seen Keirsey exposed? Just admit you were wrong about Bader already. 

18 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

while Miranda has a lot of room for improvement.

An assertion without evidence. 

32 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

We are not far off

Two points may separate us. 

Before I get into the two points. Just a quick clarification. I don't think that the Twins will become a team "Full of Ty France players". I implied that for to over state the point. But what will happen is our pre-arb players will graduate to arb and we won't have sufficient pre-arb cover. When players reach arbitration they will eat away at the budget because they cost more and when you have too many players that cost more than the minimum, that's when it all tips over. The Twins have been over reliant on the low price vet for too long. That's what I meant by it. I'm shooting the flare gun into the sky. France by himself isn't the problem... the need for France is the problem.   

1. I don't necessarily agree that every MLB team has a handful of spots that are stop gap. The debate will naturally go to the definition of stop gap. However, trying to avoid definition. Cleveland doesn't really do that unless Santana at 12 million for one year is considered stop gap. I guess it would be fair to call him stop gap since I considered him stop gap with the Twins last year but there is quite the difference between Santana and France. Mainly Cleveland has filled out their roster and they compete quite well with pre-arb players that will be back next year. Look what Detroit did last year at the deadline. They won game after game and knocked us out of the playoffs with nothing but pre-arb players after they sold their expiring contracts at the deadline. They are humming along in 2025 with mainly pre-arb players that have been augmented with larger contract players. Glayber Torres maybe stop gap but at 15 million there is difference between Torres and France. I can keep going because there are plenty of teams avoiding the France level stop gap with young players. Some successfully and some not successfully. Bottom Line: I'm pretty convinced that it can be done and should be done because I see it done with others. Yes there are teams that have to reach into the low level free agent one year stop gap but when they do... they failed to develop an alternative making it necessary. 

The thing that I don't know with our Twins is this:

Have we failed to develop an alternative because our developing players are not good enough or have we failed to develop an alternative because the front office is bottlenecking the process by being unwilling to risk it. Sitting McCusker because France is EVERY DAY necessary is bottlenecking the process at the MLB level regardless of how any of us (including the front office) feels about the odds of McCusker amounting to anything.     

2. Injuries need to be factored in. You can't factor in who specifically but every front office needs to factor in sometime, somewhere and in multiples. Especially the Twins who year after year get pummeled by the injury gods. Everybody on the 26 man roster is going to rise up due to necessity so we really can't be in the position of rostering a guy and hoping that we don't need him. France looking fine 7th or 8th only works if everybody stays healthy and that is not going to happen and his currently batting 4th is example number 214 in the past decade. France needs someone in the organization to challenge him. France shouldn't walk past the lineup card without checking to see if his name is on it. Where is that guy to challenge France? He's been fine but just fine while the Twins are overdue producing their own Alonso as we watch plug and play repeated year after year.  

Thank you for clarifying.

I used stopgap, but probably meant it in a different sense. I agree that somebody should be pushing France at 1B.  Even the best teams have positions that have little to no depth. Here is where finding the cheap-but-usable, or 1-yr make-good, contract is important. The Twins have had some success finding that at 1B over the last few years.

The immediate problem is that Miranda and Julien (options 1 and 2) have basically blown their opportunity and and Keaschall (possibly option 3) is out for a while. The "we don't know what we don't know" argument about McKusker is probably holding him back (queue the references to Keirsey being held down by the man).

However, to your point, when is the last time the Twins have developed a quality 1B? Morneau? Is it institutional or a run of bad luck? I think more recent drafts have prioritized positional flexibility guys, which tend more towards the Brooks Lee type. They really don't have much in the way of bat-first (or bat-only) guys in MiLB.

19 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I'm not criticizing France (he's worth what we paid for him), I'm criticizing Baldelli's judgement.

46 posts before we got to blaming Rocco. This might be a new record!

10 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Clemens should not be the plan.  I'm happy he's doing well, but counting on that would be a mistake.  The team needs to bring in someone else at some point.

What, you don't think his 420 BABIP is sustainable? 

10 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

46 posts before we got to blaming Rocco. This might be a new record!

Miranda would obviously be a 300 average 25 HR gold glove first basemen if Rocco just BELIEVED in him more. 

4 hours ago, NYCTK said:

Lol. You're still on this after we've seen Keirsey exposed? Just admit you were wrong about Bader already. 

I referred to Margot. Are you a big Margot fan? I wouldn't doubt it. You are wrong again. I never said that Bader was going to be bad. You just like to twist what I've said.

4 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

46 posts before we got to blaming Rocco. This might be a new record!

I'll give credit to Baldelli when credit is due & I'll constructively criticize him when I see warranted, so hopefully he'll get better. 

27 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

I referred to Margot. Are you a big Margot fan? I wouldn't doubt it. You are wrong again. I never said that Bader was going to be bad. You just like to twist what I've said.

You somehow believe that Keirsey would be a significantly better player if he just got 100 more PAs last season in the majors. Yeah, sure, he should have played over Margot last season. But that doesn't mean he'd be any better this season. This is ridiculous thinking. 

And, thanks to the helpful search function on this website, I can tell you that the second comment you made mentioning Bader was: 

Quote

Like Margot no matter how bad Bader is he'll get his playing time & roster spot.

So...

11 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

You somehow believe that Keirsey would be a significantly better player if he just got 100 more PAs last season in the majors. Yeah, sure, he should have played over Margot last season. But that doesn't mean he'd be any better this season. This is ridiculous thinking. 

Margot looks like a significantly better player than Dashawn Keirsey, even in his decline. Better stats both last year and this year.

3 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Margot looks like a significantly better player than Dashawn Keirsey, even in his decline. Better stats both last year and this year.

Could be argued! One completely useless with the bat. One fairly useless in the field. 

I just can't get over the Twins thinking he was still the same defensive player that did excel for a few seasons in Tampa. Just god awful baseball decision. I don't even really blame Margot for his pinch hitting ineptitude. Why Rocco kept trying over and over was just baffling, and part of the reason that I do think he should have been fired as soon as the season was over. 

We have ignored any discussion of the options.  Most would have chosen Christian Walker.  His wRC+ is 68 vs 98 for France.  We were not going to get Alonso from the Mets.  That's where he wanted to be and Goldschmidt was not coming here over the Yankees.   We could have gotten Santana and he has been slightly better than France.  Bell was another option but he has been terrible.