Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account
  • Twins News & Analysis

    Chasing An Ace


    Nick Nelson

    Last week, on Twitter and in the Twins Daily forum, I posed a hypothetical question: If you were the Twins GM, and you had the chance to trade Jose Berrios and Max Kepler for Oakland's Sonny Gray, would you do it?

    The responses varied widely – everywhere from "Yes, in a split-second" to "Not in a million years." But the uncomfortable proposition of parting with both the organization's reigning minor-league pitcher and hitter of the year highlights a dreary and relevant reality: Acquiring an "ace" pitcher is really, really difficult.

    Image courtesy of Ed Szczepansk, USA Today

    Twins Video

    Outlook for the 2016 Rotation

    The Twins had plenty of solid depth in their starting corps this season, with five different starters making 15-plus starts and posting an ERA that was close to or slightly above average.

    What was lacking, however, was a true standout No. 1. Kyle Gibson earned that billing by default, as he led the way in innings and ERA, but his ERA ranked 48th among big-league starters and his K-rate ranked 60th. A match-up between Gibson and someone like David Price, Cole Hamels or Dallas Keuchel in a Game 1 postseason tilt would have been tragically lopsided.

    So as the Twins try to solidify themselves as true contenders this offseason, the search for that top-tier arm to lead the rotation is a primary consideration, and one that we cover extensively in the upcoming Offseason Handbook (now available for preorder!).

    Before we dig into the topic here, let's ask ourselves a question:

    Does An Ace Really Matter That Much?

    It seems inherently obvious. Many teams have ridden their horse to October glory, with last year's Giants and Madison Bumgarner serving as a prime example.

    But having that premier starter at the front of your rotation doesn't come close to guaranteeing anything. This year, we saw the Royals ship out some great young talent to acquire Johnny Cueto from the Reds at the deadline, only to watch the righty post a 5.27 ERA in 16 starts between the regular season and postseason.

    Cueto was pretty much the definition of an ace starter when Kansas City acquired him. He'd been Cincinnati's No. 1 for years, had pitched in big postseason games, and had the second-lowest ERA among all MLB starters since 2011, trailing only the inimitable Clayton Kershaw. Yet, as the Royals learned, and as the Twins have learned on a smaller scale with Ervin Santana and Ricky Nolasco, you don't always know what you're getting.

    Even when a top starter does pitch up to his ability, it's not some magical elixir that assures postseason success. The Twins went to the playoffs four times from 2002 through 2006, and the only time they won a series was when Johan Santana was NOT in the rotation.

    Paying The Price

    In any case, clearly, having a high-end starter fronting the rotation makes a team better, both in the regular season and playoffs. So what would it cost for the Twins to reel in an elite pitching talent?

    The top name on the free agent market is David Price, who could land a record-setting deal coming off a Cy Young caliber season in which he had an enormous impact for the Blue Jays following a deadline trade. It seems safe to assume that the Twins won't go north of $200 million on any contract.

    Next in line are names like Zack Greinke, Cueto and Jordan Zimmermann, but each is likely to ink a nine-figure contract. That's probably too steep. In fact, almost any lucrative long-term deal for a starter is difficult to fathom when the Twins have committed a total of $170 to Santana, Nolasco and Phil Hughes over the past two offseasons.

    Those big commitments to middling veterans are really limiting the Twins' flexibility to make a meaningful plunge into the pitching market. It'd be nice if they could take all those deals back and put that combined sum toward one elite arm, but alas.

    Outside of free agency, the avenue for acquiring a big-name starter would be a trade. As the Berrios/Kepler-for-Gray scenario illustrates, going this route would require a painful exodus of high-caliber young talent. Still, it might be worth it. Gray has established himself at a level Berrios can only hope to reach, and will be controlled at a reasonable price for many years. He's only one example, but he's certainly the type of player that Terry Ryan should be targeting if he's willing to pony up with some of his top prospects.

    Searching Within

    The alternative to all this, of course, is to stand pat and hope that someone emerges from within to provide the Twins with a legitimate No. 1 starter. I see three paths to this outcome that aren't completely unrealistic:

    1) Ervin Santana pitches like he did in September for most the season.

    When the Twins signed Santana to a franchise-record free agent deal last winter, they were hoping he could become that No. 1 guy for them. He certainly looked the part at times. In his first four starts and last seven starts, he combined to go 7-1 with a 1.97 ERA and 1.00 WHIP. That's ace type stuff, for sure. Of course, the problem was that in between those stretches he endured a miserable slump. That's always been the story for Santana: flashes of brilliance amidst consistent inconsistency. There's a reason he has only twice posted an ERA+ higher than 111. It's tough to believe he'll pull it together for a full year, especially as he ages into his mid-30s and surpasses 2,000 innings in career workload.

    2) Phil Hughes reverts to 2014 form.

    It gets overlooked a bit since the Twins lost 92 games, but Hughes really was an ace-caliber starter in his first season with Minnesota. He set an MLB record for K/BB ratio, his 2.65 FIP was sixth-best in baseball, and he was "quality" in 20 of his 32 starts. This year, Hughes' HR-rate spiked while his strikeouts plummeted, but decreased fastball velocity (attributable to back problems?) appeared to be the main culprit. He did maintain his elite control, proving that 2014 was no fluke in that regard, so if he can regain the zip on his heater and start missing more bats he has a chance to get back to that level. Hughes doesn't turn 30 until next June.

    3) Jose Berrios fulfills his promise.

    Since he lacks the prototypical frame of a front-end workhorse starter, Berrios' ability to develop into the pitcher that his spectacular minor-league numbers foretell has always been in question. Yet, the kid just continues to dominate older and more experienced competition at every stop. And he's the one pitcher in the mix for the Twins who, in terms of pure stuff, can match up to the top dogs on contending clubs.

    Personally, I think the chances of at least one of the three possibilities mentioned above coming to fruition are good enough that I'd forego taking the drastic steps necessary to acquire an established No. 1 starter externally.

    How about you?

    Follow Twins Daily For Minnesota Twins News & Analysis

    Recent Twins Articles

    Recent Twins Videos


    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

     

    And Price is one of many "aces" you'll find out there with horrific post-season success.  

     

    People seem to forget we had one of the best pitchers in baseball for much of our last run and it guaranteed nothing.  I'd rather have one than not, but I'm not going to fall over myself in FA to get one if my dollar could go farther on, say, Chris Davis or Matt Wieters.

     

     

    Yeah, I'm more in this camp. I've been hearing forever how the Verlander's and Sales's are necessary to get you to the postseason, and how the Price's and Arietta's are necessary to advance in the postseason. Signing a FA ace is easy, but so is chopping your hand off with a hatchet. Having TR pay for an ace is admittedly much smarter, but still.

     

    I'd be fine with having 4 starters that match up competitively against the opponents' #2,3,and 4 guys. The problem for me is that I'm not confident we have 4 guys under contract will do this for us, except for if they're performing at their peaks for a full season.

     

    But I'd avoid the costs and risks. I strongly disagree that money not spend on a long fat contract for an ace will be money never spent elsewhere. If this core group truly comes together, there'll be plenty of opportunities to spend money to keep them. And I'd rather part with assets for things we need, like a catcher, and roll the dice that one or more of Hughes, Gibson, Santana and maybe even Berrios give us solid #2 starter seasons, and that May, Duffey and ?? turn into mid-rotation starters.

     

    Jim Kaat was a #2 who gave us a couple #1 seasons. So was Mudcat Grant. And Jim Perry. And Dave Boswell. But not Cole DeVries. Not him.

     

    Is there really a correlation between pitcher height and effectiveness? I ask because it always seems to come up when projecting Berrios.
     

     

    There are several decent articles that try to address this.  The short answer is that there does not appear to be a correlation between height and various parameters associated with pitching effectiveness or durability.  The first article written by Glenn P. Greenberg indicates there is a positive correlation between

    **The taller he is, the higher the round he would be drafted

    ** The taller he is, the more likely he would become an established major league starting pitcher

     

    http://sabr.org/research/does-pitcher-s-height-matter

     

    He also mentions that the rule doesn't seem to apply to LH pitchers, presumable because of the scarcity of LH pitchers

     

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/offseason-notes-a-graph-of-pitcher-height-vs-gb/

    Generally agree with Nick's conclusion.  If buying one is the answer, which I'm not against, someone needs to ship Nolasco out of town to go with Milone and quite possibly Gibson.  You cannot give Nolasco away right now, and I have to think that Gibson and Milone are already going to be dangled this offseason. 

     

    I think the odds of one of Santana or Hughes pitching like one in 2016 is pretty good.  I also think the odds of May or Berrios becoming one at some point in the next couple years is good enough that you don't leave them out of the picture or ship them off for a marginal upgrade. 

    Are we really sure that Sonny Gray is even *that* good? Berrios could be better than Gray by 2017. Or at least quite comparable. And he's, what, 4.5 years younger? 

     

    Look, the money is tied up in Hughes and Santana. You have to see if they can revert to previous form. Then there will be Gibson, May, Duffey, and Berrios. Any pecking order of starters that doesn't go like this seems wrong.

    All sorts of pitching matchups happen in the playoffs. Kershaw and Price have had some real issues in the playoffs. The key has to be to get there first.

    *Use. The. Young. Talent. You. Already. Have. And. Keep. Your. Future. Intact

    * - something does have to happen at the catching spot (but this is about pitching)

    I don't think anyone ever said having an Ace was sufficient to winning, it takes more than 1 player. Nor did anyone say it was a guarantee of post season success. I think, though I may be wrong, that people think it would help the odds.

     

    I'd rather hope against all evidence the Twins can draft and develop great pitchers, but there seems to be decades of evidence they can't. Hope isn't really a very effective strategy. I don't know the best, most right, even better answer......but keeping doing what they did for the first 40 years of their existence wasn't working all that well. Maybe things changed for the better a few years ago, we'll find out over the next 4-5 or so.

     

    Kohl Stewart could be better than Gray, Berrios could, heck, Hu could......the question is, what are the odds any of them are that effective compared to his odds of remaining that effective.

     

    Here I thought Mike Sixel was someone new.  I just saw the number of posts and put two and two together. 

     

    A quick google of Mike Sixel found this guy.  I don't think this is you.  But if it is, I am sorry about every disagreement we have ever had.  You were always right and I was always wrong.  I will never disagree with you again.

     

    http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Mike-Sixel-49473

    I see no reason for a Gray trade. The Twins have 2 high upside pitchers waiting in the wings. Don't write off Meyer. This guy when on, is something special. I've had the good fortune to see Meyer and Berrios pitch. Berrios is good but Meyer is dominant when on. Hopefully, an off season to clear his mind and build up some endurance to get to the 6/7th innings will get him back on track. The Twins FO though need to cut him some slack re the walk bs.

     

    What about Nolasco and Kepler for Shields and Hedges? Padres save $39mil and get a top 50 prospect, Twins get out of Nolasco, get a front of the rotation guy who can miss some bats, and get a catching prospect who could be the offensive upgrade they need.

     

    Nolasco has no trade value.  So you are asking them to give up Shields and Hedges for Kepler.  Just not happening.  We are stuck with Ricky. 

    Here I thought Mike Sixel was someone new.  I just saw the number of posts and put two and two together. 

     

    A quick google of Mike Sixel found this guy.  I don't think this is you.  But if it is, I am sorry about every disagreement we have ever had.  You were always right and I was always wrong.  I will never disagree with you again.

     

    http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Mike-Sixel-49473

    It was funny the first time I saw that someone with the same name as me was an MMA fighter. We must be related somehow......but no, that is definitely not me.

     

    56 (72%) were 6'2 or taller.

    22 (28%) were less than 6'2

     

    20% of the top 10 were "short".

     

    Seems like just about the right mix of tall and short finished in the top 10 based on the total population.

    The "total population" I was referring to was the population of all baseball players worldwide, not just the much, much, much smaller group of MLB pitchers who qualify for the ERA title. Only 5% of the men in the world are at least 6' 2", yet they make up the vast majority of MLB pitchers. 

     

    Nolasco has no trade value.  So you are asking them to give up Shields and Hedges for Kepler.  Just not happening.  We are stuck with Ricky. 

    There is value in saving $39 million on Shields if they want out of his contract. Similar to the Tulo-Reyes deal, take on a bad contract to get rid of a worse contract. Not saying it would work, just saying it's an idea.

     

    There is value in saving $39 million on Shields if they want out of his contract. Similar to the Tulo-Reyes deal, take on a bad contract to get rid of a worse contract. Not saying it would work, just saying it's an idea.

     

    But you are talking about a guy that has gone five years in a row with a sub 4.00 ERA.   I get he is aging and declining.  But he is not really a guy you pay to go away. He is under contract but he will be one of their five best starters without question.  

     

     

    Edited by tobi0040

     

    I don't think anyone ever said having an Ace was sufficient to winning, it takes more than 1 player. Nor did anyone say it was a guarantee of post season success. I think, though I may be wrong, that people think it would help the odds.

     

    It helps the odds to add better players, that's for sure.  The problem is that people believe that having an ace is a prerequisite for even being considered a contender.   The Twins need a better 25 man roster and there are many ways to skin that cat.

     

    Personally, right now, I don't think all in on an ace is the way to go.  Ride the excellent fielding outfield, pay up for Chris Davis, and find a way to upgrade the catching spot.  Let the kids play.

     

    It helps the odds to add better players, that's for sure.  The problem is that people believe that having an ace is a prerequisite for even being considered a contender.   The Twins need a better 25 man roster and there are many ways to skin that cat.

     

    Personally, right now, I don't think all in on an ace is the way to go.  Ride the excellent fielding outfield, pay up for Chris Davis, and find a way to upgrade the catching spot.  Let the kids play.

     

    Chris Davis at DH and a league average catcher has to be worth 30+ runs over what we had last year

     

    Chris Davis at DH and a league average catcher has to be worth 30+ runs over what we had last year

     

    I look at this: Hicks-Mauer-Dozier-Davis-Sano-Rosario-Catcher-Escobar-Buxton and see a lot of upside in that lineup.  Very solid defensively, good power, good speed, good balance and it manages to have some serious upside too.

     

    That, to me, is where to invest the money.  And we have plenty of money to do it.

     

    All that matters is that you get good performances. Who that comes from varies wildly. Just ask David Price. Or San Fran's other big hero: Ryan Vogelsong.

    It's a cute phrasing, but all you have to do is go look at actual box scores to see it isn't that simple.

    Actually it doesn't vary widely unless you are only looking at single game performances which have about as much statistical relevance as clutch hitting. 

     

    If you looked at aces as a whole in the postseason then they would have significantly outperformed the #3/4 types by a similar margin as they outperformed them in the regular season. 

     

     

    I agree with the principle that the Twins need to take the biggest upgrades they can find without bias to making the team look a certain way. If that return isn't in the rotation, so be it. The Royals are showing for the 2nd year in a row that you can go pretty far with a bunch of aging, FA 3s and 4s in your rotation. Still, it will be interesting to see how they do against the young aces in the Met rotation.

    Edited by Willihammer

     

    Actually it doesn't vary widely unless you are only looking at single game performances which have about as much statistical relevance as clutch hitting. 

     

    If you looked at aces as a whole in the postseason then they would have significantly outperformed the #3/4 types by a similar margin as they outperformed them in the regular season. 

     

    Oh?  You have some evidence of that?

     

    I see plenty of variation.  There are plenty of aces that struggle and lots of the Ryan Vogelsongs of the world.  If you have some sort of mass study on it I'd love to see it.  Otherwise it's easy to see just from pulling up this playoff year (and it's true for most you look at) that being the "ace" of your staff doesn't mean you won't be outperformed badly by dudes like Marco Estrada.  Every postseason is littered with dud performances by aces and surprising #3 guys that carry their team.

     

    And it shouldn't be a surprise.  The playoffs are just a grandiose small sample themselves.

    Edited by TheLeviathan

    I think the whole debate about whether an Ace does this in the regular season or an Ace does that in the post-season for your team is irrelevant to whether the Twins should sign one of the four clear #1 quality starters on the market this off-season.  The Twins have a chance of improving on a great season.  The Twins have the money to spend.  One of Zimmermann, Price, Cueto or Greinke could provide the Twins with 200+ innings of sub-3 ERA.  Add that to Santana, Gibson, Duffey and Berrios, and possibly Hughes (if he's back to 2014 form), and we will significantly improve the team's runs against.  Top starters who eat innings also give the bullpen a rest, and that helps make the bullpen more effective.

     

    This looks like the best opportunity, this off-season, to sign one of these guys.  If the Twins regress, and we want to get them off the books, there will always be buyers in New York, LA, etc.  Regardless, the Twins have money, will make more money by signing one of these guys, and this really could take us to the next level.

     

    Even if Berrios could be an Ace, or Hughes or Santana could pitch that well (despite their histories of not being at that level), that shouldn't deter the Twins from improving the pitching staff with a proven #1 guy.  In fact, getting that guy could make the other starters better.

     

    Like some other posters here, I'd love to see them get Zimmermann.

     

    The Royals are showing for the 2nd year in a row that you can go pretty far with a bunch of aging, FA 3s and 4s in your rotation

    Shields wasn't a 3 or 4.  Ventura didn't pitch like one last year either.  Both of those guys had a better ERA+ than any Twins starter since Baker's partial season in 2011, or before that, Johan.

     

    And Cueto, despite his mixed results for KC, definitely wasn't acquired to be a 3 or 4 either.

     

    The "total population" I was referring to was the population of all baseball players worldwide, not just the much, much, much smaller group of MLB pitchers who qualify for the ERA title. Only 5% of the men in the world are at least 6' 2", yet they make up the vast majority of MLB pitchers. 

    I don't think it's good science to compare the height of the total world population's men to MLB players. Professional athletes are different than the general population of the world. If you're going to make a height argument about baseball players (specifically in this case, pitchers), you need to look only at the sub-population of baseball players when determining if height matters among baseball players.

     

    Regardless, we're not doing full-blown scientific analysis here. It's just a discussion. The stats you threw out do not indicate that pitchers shorter than 6'2" are significantly under-represented in the results of ERA+ compared to the total population of pitchers who qualified (in this one year sample data).

    I just need to say this and it needs to be said more and more and more:  SHIELDS IS NOT AN ACE ANYMORE.  He's 33 and saw an increase in ERA, WHIP, B/9, and HR/9 in a pitchers haven of all places.  I know he gets Ks, and I'm open to picking him up for the right price assuming guys like May and Duffey still get to pitch, but in no way should we be giving up a ton of value for him.  He's 1 year into a 4 year deal that is going to be about as untradable as Nolasco is now, and he's got about as much of a chance of pitching like an ace as Nolasco does going forward.  Pass please. 

     

    I don't think it's good science to compare the height of the total world population's men to MLB players. Professional athletes are different than the general population of the world. If you're going to make a height argument about baseball players (specifically in this case, pitchers), you need to look only at the sub-population of baseball players when determining if height matters among baseball players.

     

    Regardless, we're not doing full-blown scientific analysis here. It's just a discussion. The stats you threw out do not indicate that pitchers shorter than 6'2" are significantly under-represented in the results of ERA+ compared to the total population of pitchers who qualified (in this one year sample data).

    I threw out the general population stat to indicate that at some level height matters. If the vast majority of people are under 6'2", but the vast majority of elite MLB pitchers are over, then height provides at least a very crude tool to differentiate players. The question is where is it useful and where is it not. I agree that there does not appear to be a height bias at the MLB level. But does it exist in the with prospects? Or drafting? Or with signing 16-year-old international kids? Hopefully this example will demonstrate what I mean (and oh my god this is so far off topic...)

     

    "Short" defined as 6'1" or less, and all numbers made up...

    (X% - Y to be read as "X% of Y are 'short'")
    Scenario 1:
    95% - the general population
    80% - all baseball pitchers
    50% - pitchers for competitive hs traveling teams, college, etc
    25% - pitchers good enough to be drafted/signed
    25% - pitchers who reach AA
    25% - pitchers who make the majors
    25% - pitchers who qualify for the ERA title
    20% - pitchers in the top 10 in league ERA

     

    In this scenario, height is clearly not a good indicator for any player acquisition. If a pitcher is good enough to be drafted/signed, beyond that height doesn't really matter at all.

     

    Scenario 2:
    95% - the general population
    80% - all baseball pitchers
    50% - pitchers for competitive hs traveling teams, college, etc
    40% - pitchers good enough to be drafted
    35% - pitchers who reach AA
    30% - pitchers who make the majors
    25% - pitchers who qualify for the ERA title
    20% - pitchers in the top 10 in league ERA

     

    Here, height does matter, as at every step the population of pitchers gets progressively taller. This scenario would indicate to me that height does matter to some degree, at least in the fact that it correlates with success.

     

    I don't have any data to know what the actual numbers are. But my theory is that at a certain age/level (maybe 22/AA), height stops being meaningful. But prior to that it is meaningful, primarily because it is a proxy for identifying which young pitchers will develop the stuff necessary to succeed in the majors. Obviously height isn't the only thing that matters, or even one of the main things. But when dealing with draft/signing/trade decisions, when all other things (stuff/results/health/etc) are equal I would go with the tall pitcher over the short pitcher.

     

    I just need to say this and it needs to be said more and more and more:  SHIELDS IS NOT AN ACE ANYMORE.  He's 33 and saw an increase in ERA, WHIP, B/9, and HR/9 in a pitchers haven of all places.  I know he gets Ks, and I'm open to picking him up for the right price assuming guys like May and Duffey still get to pitch, but in no way should we be giving up a ton of value for him.  He's 1 year into a 4 year deal that is going to be about as untradable as Nolasco is now, and he's got about as much of a chance of pitching like an ace as Nolasco does going forward.  Pass please. 

     

    The only hypothetical trades I have seen involve Nolasco. Which aren't happening from the Padres perspective.   Hedges could be a good prospect, so the Kepler piece comes close to cancelling out Kepler.

    Edited by tobi0040

    There's an incremental value to having an ace.  Now, instead of Gibson going against another clubs #1, he's going against their 2 or their 3 if Santana is the 2.  It can have a cascading effect on your pitching rotation.  That said, don't trade for it in the off season.  If you trade for an ace, do it in July.




    Create an account or sign in to comment

    You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create an account

    Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

    Register a new account

    Sign in

    Already have an account? Sign in here.

    Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...