Most over-rated player in the last 30 years to retire after 2014 season

[Willihammer]

Biggio had a farewell tour. I don't remember if Edgar did or not, I assume so. Ripken, Chipper... guys who play long career for one organization usually get one. Its just going to be bigger for Jeter because of that old saying, everything's bigger in NY.

 

edit: FWIW I agree Biggio probably deserves a spot in the Hall

[cmathewson]

Jeter is one of the best ever. Maybe top 5. He was the best hitting shortstop of his era, an era that included Ripken, Garciaparra, and, yes, Rodriguez. If A-Rod had stayed at short and not juiced, it would be a discussion.

 

His defense was overrated. But it is tough to compare him all time defensively because guys like Wagner never had the advanced metrics spotlight that Jeter has lived under. Back then, it was all about scouting eye. Who knows? He certainly was not the best defensive shortstop of his era. Ripken, Visquel, and others were better. Overall, I'd put him just behind Ripken. That's elite company.

 

I for one will cheer when he is announced. Guys who play their whole careers for one organization should be celebrated. HOF guys all the more.

[tobi0040]

Craig Biggio, Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker for me.

 

Vlad Guerrero should be a HOF guy. His average 162 games season (he played 15 years):

 

.318 average, 34 HR, 113 RBI, 36 2B, 14 SB, .931 OPS. Absolute cannon in RF. He had seven seasons with 10+ outfield assists.

 

I think Walker will be forever dinged because of Coors Field. His numbers did jump a ton after he went from MON to COL.

 

I think this article will surprise some people.

 

http://crusherdestroyer.hubpages.com/hub/Ten-Reasons-Why-Vladimir-Guerrero-Should-Be-A-Hall-Of-Famer

[TheLeviathan]

Jeter is one of the best ever. Maybe top 5.

 

This is the over-rating I'm talking about. He's not a top 5 player ever. That's just totally unsupported by evidence.

[tobi0040]

I am guessing CMathewson meant top 5 SS. I put him behind Wagner and Banks, a coin flip with Ripken.

 

If Tulo and Han-Ram play another 8-10 years they won't have 3k hits but will have better numbers on a per season basis, by far.

[TheLeviathan]

I am guessing CMathewson meant top 5 SS. I put him behind Wagner and Banks, a coin flip with Ripken.

 

If Tulo and Han-Ram play another 8-10 years they won't have 3k hits but will have better numbers on a per season basis, by far.

 

I hope so, I wouldn't disagree with top 5 SS. Top 5 for all positions. No.

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

Top SS of all time IMO:

1. Honus Wagner

2. A-Rod (roids aside)

3. George Davis

4. Cal Ripken

5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)

6. Ozzie Smith

7. Luke Appling

8. Derek Jeter

9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

 

 

I appreciate your list, except for the fact that this game is played in front of millions of swooning fans. A-Fraud won't make the Hall of Fame, so long as the steroid cloud trumps statistics. For this reason Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken move up the list purely based upon the "what have you done for me lately?" critique.

 

There are 51 Yankees in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Derek Jeter is a Yankee. Jeter has more hits than any Yankee to ever put on the pinstripes. Therefore, Jeter will be remembered as one of the greatest Yankees.

 

Will he be remembered as one of the greatest shortstops of all time? Probably. Does he deserve to be among the top ten? Yes. The top five? No way.

 

BTW, I love the title of this thread. Spirit...Dave's title is about as subtle as Al Franken's love for Rush Limbaugh.

[jorgenswest]

Jeter's defense through age 30 was close to average. Other guys like Banks, Yount and eventually Ripken moved off shortstop. All of them would have been liabilities in the field had they played shortstop late into their 30s.

 

Jeter is a great player and worthy hall of famer that in the context of shortstops is much closer to Babe Ruth than Jim Rice.

[cmathewson]

This is the over-rating I'm talking about. He's not a top 5 player ever. That's just totally unsupported by evidence.

 

I meant SS, not all players.

[TheLeviathan]

I meant SS, not all players.

 

That's more reasonable. Though I do think their are some that put him that high.

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

His defense wasn't up to snuff the majority of those years, he never should have been SS the minute the Yankees got a superior on in A-Rod.

 

Top SS of all time IMO:

1. Honus Wagner

2. A-Rod (roids aside)

3. George Davis

4. Cal Ripken

5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)

6. Ozzie Smith

7. Luke Appling

8. Derek Jeter

9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

 

It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots, yet Barry Larkin doesn't even get on the first ballot when he was clearly a superior overall player.

 

I have been watching baseball for almost 50 years. I didn't see Appling, Boudreau or Hans. Given numbers and quotes from his contemporaries--concede Honus Wagner best SS of all time. I definitely feel Ozzie is the best I have ever seen so number 2. The next 5 or so (Appling, Boudreau, Larkin, Cal) hard to rank. All are better than Jeter. Then you get another group--Pee Wee, Rizzuto, Banks (would be higher but moved off) also true with Yount that maybe just maybe Jeter fits in with. Top 10 of all-time (arguably). Top 5. No way. A couple of others to think about Dick Groat and Jim Fregosi (who just died this morning)...I am sure I am forgetting somebody.

[Kwak]

Top 5, Top 10 SS--splitting hairs! The premise was Most Overrated. It seems virtually all posters disagree. Only obliquely mentioned--playing in NY. Yes, the games biggest stage. Make it [t]here--make it anywhere goes the song lyric--and as far as baseball it's true! Failures get magnified also--ask David Winfield. Even worse was what happened to Bobby Murcer. Though probably the very worst was what was done to Maris--but that's NY!

[savvyspy]

I honestly think Jeter has been a bit UNDERRATED in my opinion. His ability to perform and lead a number of championship teams in the spotlight of New York is special. I think of him as basically Kirby Puckett in a MUCH tougher market. The Twins have had MAYBE 2-3 players TOTAL (Puckett, Carew, Killebrew) of Jeter's caliber in their existence.

[Teflon]

Name anyone Barry Larkin has ever dated.

 

PS - If you were Jim Rice would you have prefered to NOT be a Hall-of-Famer as opposed to now being the Hall of Fame's Mendoza Line?

 

You know what I meant. IMO there are different levels of HOFamers. Would you say that Jim Rice is in the same class as Babe Ruth?

[cmathewson]

Having moved from Minnesota to NY, I can see why it is hard to play here. Not only is the population orders of magnitude greater, but New Yorkers are really focused. On everything. They are news, sports and weather hounds. They follow players everyday. I remember earlier this year, all the buzz was about "what's wrong with Eli?" They thought his career might be over. Every conversation on every train ride I had was about this. They were beside themselves.

 

To me, for a guy to handle that microscope and be universally beloved by New Yorkers over nearly two decades takes doing. Jeter and Rivera are like demigods here, because they were the most consistently excellent players this town has seen since Gehrig. Most Yankees have abbreviated careers. Think of Mantle, who was one of the all-time greats at any position. You just wonder what might have been if lifestyle and injuries hadn't shortened his career. So it goes because of the microscope. Not so for Jeter.

[DaveW]

I honestly think Jeter has been a bit UNDERRATED in my opinion. His ability to perform and lead a number of championship teams in the spotlight of New York is special. I think of him as basically Kirby Puckett in a MUCH tougher market. The Twins have had MAYBE 2-3 players TOTAL (Puckett, Carew, Killebrew) of Jeter's caliber in their existence.

IMO you are over-rating him by saying that

The Twins have definitely had more than 2-3. Killebrew, Carew, Tony O, Mauer and Puckett are all better than Jeter. Johan honestly might be better as well (tough to compare SP and position players though)

 

Jeter wasn't even the best play on his own team the majority of those years (WAR his him the best only 3 years)

 

Take Mauer for instance, he is significantly better than Jeter offensively (it's not even close) and defensively the only position harder than SS is Catcher, and Joe at the very least played a very good defensive catcher for a decade.

 

You wanna talk about under-rated? Joe Mauer. Kid already easily goes down as one of the best 5 Catchers in the games history, even with the position switch, yet nobody mentions him. That is under-rated.

[DaveW]

It seems virtually all posters disagree.

 

Except that isn't the case...

[jorgenswest]

Jeter has 94 career offensive WAR. Second among shortstops.

[tcarlic]

Dude has never won an MVP. Below average defense. Put him on the Royals and he'd be a nobody. Definitely one of the most overrated players of all-time. Bravo, OP!!

[Thrylos]

Jeter is one of the best ever. Maybe top 5. He was the best hitting shortstop of his era, an era that included Ripken, Garciaparra, and, yes, Rodriguez. If A-Rod had stayed at short and not juiced, it would be a discussion. .

 

Was listening to WFAN out of NYC, Mike Fransesca's show today, and actually he pointed out that Jeter is one of the top Righty hitters post war (career BA based), if you count hitters who played more than 10 seasons.

[Bark's Lounge]

Dude has never won an MVP. Below average defense. Put him on the Royals and he'd be a nobody. Definitely one of the most overrated players of all-time. Bravo, OP!!

 

He would have, except his career years were in 1999, 2006, and 2009 - years where lesser players had better years. No offense to Morneau, but 2006 should have been the year he took home the MVP. No complaints about that, but Derek Jeter, without an MVP, is still a MVP in my mind's eye. Hopefully, he has a trick up his sleeve and goes off offensively this year and then takes a walk down the long hall of going off on a good note.

[TKGuy]

At the risk of sounding condescending, so I apologize in advance, but thinking any inner-circle, first ballot Hall of Famer is overrated is a little silly.

 

Jeter has been one of the best, he has the numbers, he has the longevity, he's been a leader on winning teams, he's the total package.

 

This!

[thetank]

Vlad Guerrero should be a HOF guy. His average 162 games season (he played 15 years):

 

.318 average, 34 HR, 113 RBI, 36 2B, 14 SB, .931 OPS. Absolute cannon in RF. He had seven seasons with 10+ outfield assists.

 

I think Walker will be forever dinged because of Coors Field. His numbers did jump a ton after he went from MON to COL.

 

I think this article will surprise some people.

 

http://crusherdestroyer.hubpages.com/hub/Ten-Reasons-Why-Vladimir-Guerrero-Should-Be-A-Hall-Of-Famer

Vlad wll be first time eligible in a few years. Walker likely needed more counting stats like hits and RBIs in order to make it in the HOF as well which is likely true of CF Jim Edmonds. Biggio hit .260 the last 6 years of his career in order to get 3000 hits which will het him in the HOF.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

I have never been a fan of Derek Jeter. But I too have watching this game for over 20 years and yes Jeter is overrated.

 

1) At no point throughout his career was he ever the best SS in the game. Probably not even top 3. Larkin, Ripken, Rodriguez, Garciaparra, Fernandez, Rollins, Tejida, Reyes, Ramirez... Not even including defensive stallwarts Vizquel and Ozzie. Too many names were consistantly listed above him.

 

2) Defensively he was horrendous. Pick your defensive rating, they all say the same thing.

 

3) Offensively he was very good. He also had all-stars batting around him for virtually every season in his career. He was seeing better pitches because you waould rather face Jeter than the behemoths behind him.

 

4) There is a degree of compiler going on here. Not real effective in the later years, but hanging on. Dave Winfield? Eddie Murray?

 

5) Not enough can be said about the media garbage here. Take him out of New York, and he becomes very good, not godlike. George Brett, Robin Yount, Craig Biggio.

 

6) Think Jeter is a good teammate? Think again. Ask ARod when he first came over to the Yankees how he was met by Jeter, even though he willingly deferred and switched positions for him. Ask the upper brass who asked Jeter to swtich positions for the better of the team and were rebuffed. Ask every Yankee who has played for the team and wasn't part of the clique how they were treated. Does this happen other places, yes. But we are talking about Jeter.

 

7) You can not use WS rings in any argument for any player concerning greatness. Greg Gagne for the Twins has 2 rings, Biggio has none. Does that make Gagne a better player? One players team impact in baseball is so negligable compared to other team sports, it shouldnt even be in the discussion

 

I am not going to argue whether or not Jeter is a HOF player. His offensive numbers are strong. His defensive numbers are equally bad (as Jeter played arguably the most important defensive position, these have to be part of the discussion). I will just be thankful that after this year I will be able to read ESPN again without having to to skip over the Jeter garbage.

[biggentleben]

Vlad wll be first time eligible in a few years. Walker likely needed more counting stats like hits and RBIs in order to make it in the HOF as well which is likely true of CF Jim Edmonds. Biggio hit .260 the last 6 years of his career in order to get 3000 hits which will het him in the HOF.

 

I understand that you're anti-Biggio, but he also had one negative WAR season in his career - his last one. He's said in interviews that he knew that season that it was time to hang it up, whether or not 3,000 came or not because he just couldn't be an asset to his team anymore. Through his age 35 season, he had career numbers of .291/.381/.436 with 2,149 hits. If he retired right then, he is probably in the HOF already. Of course, his injury at 34 that sapped his speed is why Biggio has stated that he changed his approach to drive the ball more rather than spraying line drives because he wasn't happy with his results without his high-end speed that he'd had his whole career.

[thetank]

I understand that you're anti-Biggio, but he also had one negative WAR season in his career - his last one. He's said in interviews that he knew that season that it was time to hang it up, whether or not 3,000 came or not because he just couldn't be an asset to his team anymore. Through his age 35 season, he had career numbers of .291/.381/.436 with 2,149 hits. If he retired right then, he is probably in the HOF already. Of course, his injury at 34 that sapped his speed is why Biggio has stated that he changed his approach to drive the ball more rather than spraying line drives because he wasn't happy with his results without his high-end speed that he'd had his whole career.

Biggio is a HOFer. I would vote for him if I had a vote. He caught, played second, and CF. It helped getting 3000 hits. I think Jeter was a better hitter.

 

When I read the sabermetrics gurus they don't like Jeter's fielding. I can concede that they may have a point despite his being voted a gold glover a few times.

[richardkr34]

The discussion of "inner-circle" HOF depends on how many players are in said circle. If we're talking Mays, Mantle, Musial, Hornsby, Wagner, Cobb, Schmidt, Brett, Ruth, W. Johnson, R. Johnson, Koufax, Aaron, T. Williams, then no, Jeter is not on that level.

[nicksaviking]

I have lived in NYC for about 7 years now, I goto about 15-20 Yankee games a year, trust me, it gets said.

 

You'd know better than I would then. Still, those tend to be the kinds of folks who don't understand that baseball, or movies and music for that matter, existed more than ten years ago. I don't even bother trying to argue with those narrow focused people, you can't really. They're the same people who would say Kanye West is the greatest musician of all time but couldn't even name one member of the Beatles.

[TheLeviathan]

The discussion of "inner-circle" HOF depends on how many players are in said circle. If we're talking Mays, Mantle, Musial, Hornsby, Wagner, Cobb, Schmidt, Brett, Ruth, W. Johnson, R. Johnson, Koufax, Aaron, T. Williams, then no, Jeter is not on that level.

 

Yeah...that was my issue with Seth's remark too. Jeter is "inner circle" - what does that mean?

 

I judge a player being overrated by comparing him to similar peers and how they are perceived. There is no question, in my mind, that compared to his comparable peers (Alomar, Biggio, Damon) that he has been over-rated.

[one_eyed_jack]

I don't know that Biggio has ever been linked to steriods. He is a guy that should have made it by now though, but I think he was hurt most by the packed ballot. He missed by two votes last year, one weirdo voted only for Jack Morris. Multiple voters said that the 10 vote rule left guys off. So this is really a personality/voting issue than anything else. The numbers are there:

 

3,060 hits, 291 HR, .796 OPS, 414 SB, 668 2B. By any measure one of the best hitting 2B of all time.

 

 

---He's never been linked to steroids by any credible evidence, but certain individual voters have refused to vote for him because they suspect him of using. (Murray Chass and Rick Morrissey are a couple of examples.) Their arguments are more guilt-by-association - i.e. Biggio played with known roiders like Camminitti, so they can't be sure he didn't use.

 

So I will be interested to see what these guys do with Jeter. Because if they apply the same logic to Jeter's candidacy that they did to Biggio's, then they won't be voting for Jeter due to steroid suspicion.