Souhan: Mauer Should Move To 1B

[IdahoPilgrim]

Is this truly a "major" head injury? He apparently received a mild concussion and the Twins are being extremely cautious because their 2013 squad is awful. Yes, concussions are scary but realistically, 99% of the time people recover from them just fine. Guys have been sitting behind the dish, getting concussions for 100 years. Yes, there is a small chance that Joe will go all Justin Morneau on the Twins and that would suck. But there is a very small chance of that happening.

 

Argue whether that small risk is worth it but let's not act as if Joe just stuck his arm in a wood chipper. He's expected to be back by the end of the week.

 

To be fair, thinking in general on concussions has changed dramatically in just the past couple of years. I think comparisons with past standards and expectations are pretty much out the window at this point. That's why MLB instituted a new 7-day DL for just these types of injuries. You're going to find all stakeholders in the game (owners, athletes, FO types, agents, medical staffs, etc) being much more cautious than in the past. It makes the question of should he move to reduce the chance of future concussions very legitimate in my mind.

 

And I think the fact that catchers Iand umpires) are so prone to this type of injury is something MLB is going to have to address sooner rather than later, just as the NFL is being forced to address it.

[Mike Sixel]

That was a typo, which I had already changed to .680.

 

Getting an .800 OPS first baseman on the FA market is not hard to do. Arcia could also be that guy, as could Sano.

 

You are proposing moving Sano from 3B, but not willing to move a 30 year old catcher?

 

I do agree, Arcia might be best suited to 1B, but I think he's a DH/RF over time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

To be fair, thinking in general on concussions has changed dramatically in just the past couple of years. I think comparisons with past standards and expectations are pretty much out the window at this point. That's why MLB instituted a new 7-day DL for just these types of injuries. You're going to find all stakeholders in the game (owners, athletes, FO types, agents, medical staffs, etc) being much more cautious than in the past. It makes the question of should he move to reduce the chance of future concussions very legitimate in my mind.

 

And I think the fact that catchers are so prone to this type of injury is something MLB is going to have to address sooner rather than later, just as the NFL is being forced to address it.

 

I'm not trying to downplay concussions at all; they're serious injuries and I commend MLB for adding the 7 day DL for concussions.

 

My point is that I think Twins fans are overly sensitive to concussions because of Morneau and Koskie. Catchers have been doing this for a century and many of them play until their mid to late 30s at the position. By all accounts, Joe's concussion is about as minor as a concussion can be. It's worth keeping an eye on and thinking about as a long-term issue going forward but you can say that about any player. Joe is not special in that regard, nor should we have any additional concerns about him past the fact that he makes a lot of money.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You are proposing moving Sano from 3B, but not willing to move a 30 year old catcher?

 

I do agree, Arcia might be best suited to 1B, but I think he's a DH/RF over time.

 

I'm not proposing that Sano move to 1B but Miguel himself may force the situation. It's far from a given that he has the ability to be a MLB third baseman, though we certainly have more hope for that now than we did a year ago.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I'm not trying to downplay concussions at all; they're serious injuries and I commend MLB for adding the 7 day DL for concussions.

 

My point is that I think Twins fans are overly sensitive to concussions because of Morneau and Koskie. Catchers have been doing this for a century and many of them play until their mid to late 30s at the position. By all accounts, Joe's concussion is about as minor as a concussion can be. It's worth keeping an eye on and thinking about as a long-term issue going forward but you can say that about any player. Joe is not special in that regard, nor should we have any additional concerns about him past the fact that he makes a lot of money.

 

That's exactly the thing I think is going to change - especially when the catcher in question is one of the team's top hitters or has a lot of money invested/sunk into him. Right or wrong, I think teams will be very quick to switch such people to "safer" positions, much more so than in the past.

[Brock Beauchamp]

That's exactly the thing I think is going to change - especially when the catcher in question is one of the team's top hitters or has a lot of money invested/sunk into him. Right or wrong, I think teams will be very quick to switch such people to "safer" positions, much more so than in the past.

 

It's possible and should the data back that up, I'm in favor of it.

 

What I think is more likely is a rapid deployment of better gear and a study into what can prevent the injury from occurring.

[Mike Sixel]

Gear, schmear. NFL players won't even wear pads.....players are really weird about appearance and "stay the same" vs safety.....

 

I'd guess any studies would come well after Joe moves to 1B.

[Dman]

Anyone know how many catchers have been knocked out of the game with foul tips based on concussions? What is the safest position to play to avoid concussions? So far I think we have had several outfielders have concussions and Morneau who is a 1st baseman has been impacted more by concussions than most and supposedly that is a safe place to play. I just don't think there is a safe place on the field to 100% avoid concussions. They can happen to anyone at anytime. Ask Justin Morneau how concussion free being a 1st base man is. If Mauer thinks it is too dangerous to be behind the plate and wants to give it up then that is fine but until then I say leave him where he is.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Gear, schmear. NFL players won't even wear pads.....players are really weird about appearance and "stay the same" vs safety.....

 

I'd guess any studies would come well after Joe moves to 1B.

 

The NFL's problems are an entirely different argument. It took the NFL far too long to realize that gear had turned into an offensive weapon, not an injury preventative measure. They let this situation happen to themselves.

 

Baseball players balked at the new helmet because it looked funny. Well, I think we can both agree that was a stupid opinion to have but there's no reason that has to happen with catching gear should it arrive on the scene in the next few years. I have no issues with MLB just making these decisions en masse and not giving the players an option.

[Mike Sixel]

Mornaeu was injured sliding into 2nd, not playing 1B.

[ashbury]

That's exactly the thing I think is going to change - especially when the catcher in question is one of the team's top hitters or has a lot of money invested/sunk into him. Right or wrong, I think teams will be very quick to switch such people to "safer" positions, much more so than in the past.

 

The phrase Tools of Ignorance may be about to make a comeback.

[Guest USAFChief]

A couple follow ups:

 

I think moving Mauer after his skills deteriorate is too late.

 

I completely agree that Mauer making the HOF is virtually meaningless to me. I care about the Twins.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I completely agree that Mauer making the HOF is virtually meaningless to me. I care about the Twins.

 

It's a secondary concern. If Mauer is killing the Twins at catcher, then you move him for the good of the team... but that's not the case. He's quite fine at catcher and in his age 30 season.

 

Really, I think there are too many variables in play to make a truly informed decision. Can Sano stick at third? Is Arcia an OF? Can Pinto hit and play defense? The Twins could end up with 2-3 1B/DH types, which means that large sacrifices must be made to let Joe play first.

 

Or, the inverse... Pinto could come out of the gates strong and make this decision very easy. I'm not saying that Mauer has to stay behind the dish, I'm merely suggesting that there is no clear answer and moving him away from the position largely based on fear is the wrong decision. Joe has a lot of value behind the dish, value that is much harder to replace at catcher than it is at other positions.

[Mike Sixel]

Every decision is hard, and has a lot of variables.....I'm not sure that is a good arguement for not making a decision one way or the other.

 

I am all over the 25-30% more at bats argument, frankly.

[iastfan112]

It's a secondary concern. If Mauer is killing the Twins at catcher, then you move him for the good of the team... but that's not the case. He's quite fine at catcher and in his age 30 season.

 

Really, I think there are too many variables in play to make a truly informed decision. Can Sano stick at third? Is Arcia an OF? Can Pinto hit and play defense? The Twins could end up with 2-3 1B/DH types, which means that large sacrifices must be made to let Joe play first.

 

Or, the inverse... Pinto could come out of the gates strong and make this decision very easy. I'm not saying that Mauer has to stay behind the dish, I'm merely suggesting that there is no clear answer and moving him away from the position largely based on fear is the wrong decision. Joe has a lot of value behind the dish, value that is much harder to replace at catcher than it is at other positions.

 

Exactly this. If Pinto proves he can handle the position adequately both offensively and defensively I'd be perfectly fine with moving Mauer, as it is moving him now leaves the position in a pretty precarious spot, behind Pinto there isn't anyone I'd feel comfortable leaving the position to within the organization.

[Dman]

Mornaeu was injured sliding into 2nd, not playing 1B.

 

That is exactly my point. It doesn't matter where you move him he can still get a concussion sliding into 2nd base or any number of things on a baseball field. Just because you move him doesn't mean he is safe from concussions.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I honestly don't understand the "decision" that needs to be made here. Mauer's value as a catcher is immensely higher than that of Mauer as a 1B. There are plenty of FA guys who will sign reasonably priced deals to OPS .800 at 1B, and finding that production at catcher is rare. I agree if Pinto is forcing the issue, that you can think about it, but as much as I like Pinto, expecting him to put up anything close to the HOF numbers Mauer has put up at C to date is unreasonable. I'm all for keeping his bat in the lineup more and giving him reps at DH, 1B, 3B, or anywhere else he can play competent defense, but moving him for the sake of moving him when his production continues to remain very good strikes me as poor planning. Mauer should stay at C for as long as possible through the next wave. His value as a catcher is much much much higher.

[Winston Smith]

I honestly don't understand the "decision" that needs to be made here. Mauer's value as a catcher is immensely higher than that of Mauer as a 1B. There are plenty of FA guys who will sign reasonably priced deals to OPS .800 at 1B, and finding that production at catcher is rare. I agree if Pinto is forcing the issue, that you can think about it, but as much as I like Pinto, expecting him to put up anything close to the HOF numbers Mauer has put up at C to date is unreasonable. I'm all for keeping his bat in the lineup more and giving him reps at DH, 1B, 3B, or anywhere else he can play competent defense, but moving him for the sake of moving him when his production continues to remain very good strikes me as poor planning. Mauer should stay at C for as long as possible through the next wave. His value as a catcher is much much much higher.

 

What is his value sitting at home in a dark room after his brain gets scrambled again? That is the real question, do you put him back in a position where he has a much higher chance of getting his bell rung or do you protect a 115 mill investment as best as possible?

His chance of getting hurt again is much much higher if he is catching. His value is higher catching but his value is zero sitting at home or next to zero if he becomes a shell of himself.

On a non-contending team why take the risk?

[Marta Shearing]

[quote name=Brock

Beauchamp]Pudge Rodriguez averaged 126 games a season over his first ten seasons.

 

Joe Mauer is at, what, 119 games a season?

 

Mauer's "injury history" is being blown waaaaaaaay out of proportion. Catchers get dinged up and miss games. When they're healthy, they miss games just to rest. Expecting anything more than 130 games a season from a catcher is asking too much.

 

Whether you want to argue that Joe's bat will improve at first and that the 10-15 additional games he'll play at the position will outweigh the lineup strength he provides at catcher, so be it. But his injury history is being overstated. He has missed several partial seasons, two of which were as much due to the Twins being awful as Joe being "injured".

 

He's at an age where catchers historically flame out, AND now he has a brain injury. Morneau hasnt been the same since his last brain injury. Why take the chance with mauer?

[iastfan112]

Just a reminder, its almost a given that the Twins have some sort of insurance on Mauer's contract so its not as if he's knocked out that they won't recoup at least some of that 115 million.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Just a reminder, its almost a given that the Twins have some sort of insurance on Mauer's contract so its not as if he's knocked out that they won't recoup at least some of that 115 million.

 

I really don't care about the contract - I want him active and healthy because we need his bat in the lineup.

[mudcat14]

How much is it really worth?

 

150+ games of Joe Mauer at an .860 OPS, replacing an .800 OPS first baseman

 

or

 

120-130 games of Joe Mauer at an .860 OPS, replacing a .680 OPS catcher.

 

I don't think it's that cut and dried, Brock. In four seasons of full-season ball, essentially climbing a level per year, Pinto has OPS'd @ .672, .697, .844 & .897. He's trended upward each year while climbing the ladder. Is it unreasonable to predict he can OPS in the mid .700's as a regular MLB catcher? Hermann? Okay, not so much, but still serviceable as a back-up.

 

As for potential solutions for 1B, only 11 posted an OPS in the majors of .800 or above this year, so unless your counting on making a big splash via trade or finding last years Willingham @ 1B, we'll be lucky to match Morneau's .745. If Pinto & Hermann can come anywhere close to Morny's OPS, I'd rather have Mauer's .860 @ 1B for an additional 20-30 games per year.

[diehardtwinsfan]

What is his value sitting at home in a dark room after his brain gets scrambled again? That is the real question, do you put him back in a position where he has a much higher chance of getting his bell rung or do you protect a 115 mill investment as best as possible?

His chance of getting hurt again is much much higher if he is catching. His value is higher catching but his value is zero sitting at home or next to zero if he becomes a shell of himself.

On a non-contending team why take the risk?

 

If you are talking this season and right now, personally I'd shut him down and send him home. Long term though, I think this is a risk that you have to take unless Mauer himself is forcing it. Mauer represents a huge competitive advantage at C that is largely gone at 1B. Giving him reps over there to get him more plate appearances is one thing, but a full switch when he's still a productive catcher is another thing alltogether.

[LaBombo]

As for potential solutions for 1B, only 11 posted an OPS in the majors of .800 or above this year, so unless your counting on making a big splash via trade or finding last years Willingham @ 1B, we'll be lucky to match Morneau's .745. If Pinto & Hermann can come anywhere close to Morny's OPS, I'd rather have Mauer's .860 @ 1B for an additional 20-30 games per year.

If the Twins can't at least equal Morneau's output at first base with an internal option, a modestly-priced free agent, or a trade of a non-essential prospect, then there's little reason to have faith that they will acquire some of the other pieces they need to contend that are typically much harder to find than a first baseman who can hit.

[70charger]

I don't think it's that cut and dried, Brock. In four seasons of full-season ball, essentially climbing a level per year, Pinto has OPS'd @ .672, .697, .844 & .897. He's trended upward each year while climbing the ladder. Is it unreasonable to predict he can OPS in the mid .700's as a regular MLB catcher? Hermann? Okay, not so much, but still serviceable as a back-up.

 

As for potential solutions for 1B, only 11 posted an OPS in the majors of .800 or above this year, so unless your counting on making a big splash via trade or finding last years Willingham @ 1B, we'll be lucky to match Morneau's .745. If Pinto & Hermann can come anywhere close to Morny's OPS, I'd rather have Mauer's .860 @ 1B for an additional 20-30 games per year.

 

I think perhaps he was speaking in generalities. Catchers don't tend to hit well, much less hit like Joe Mauer.

 

On the other hand, if Pinto can OPS in the mid 700 range, the decision becomes a whole heck of a lot easier.

[jm3319]

Just a reminder, its almost a given that the Twins have some sort of insurance on Mauer's contract so its not as if he's knocked out that they won't recoup at least some of that 115 million.

 

I really don't care about the contract - I want him active and healthy because we need his bat in the lineup.

 

^^^THIS

 

i really don't care if the Twins are on the hook for an injured player's contract. They offered the contract, and it's their money not mine.

 

Moving and protecting Mauer isn't about $$$$ it's about keeping him healthy so he can contribute to the team and help them win (even if he is the only man on the roster worthy of being called a major leaguer)

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think perhaps he was speaking in generalities. Catchers don't tend to hit well, much less hit like Joe Mauer.

 

On the other hand, if Pinto can OPS in the mid 700 range, the decision becomes a whole heck of a lot easier.

 

Yep and yep. If Pinto can OPS at .750, there's no reason not to move Mauer away from the position, at least on a semi-regular basis. Maybe Joe drops to catching 50 games a season. Maybe he stops catching entirely... Either would be fine with me at that point.

[mudcat14]

Just a reminder, its almost a given that the Twins have some sort of insurance on Mauer's contract so its not as if he's knocked out that they won't recoup at least some of that 115 million.

 

The problem here is that insurance will only pay if he is permanently disabled (forced to retire) Morneau was insured as well, but The Twins were on the hook for the final 3+ years of his deal at an extremely diminished return.

[mudcat14]

^^^THIS

 

i really don't care if the Twins are on the hook for an injured player's contract. They offered the contract, and it's their money not mine.

 

 

It doesn't matter who's money it is. The Twins will still only budget X amount of money for payroll. If $23mil is tied up in one player who only provides about say $3mil of value, that's $20mil they don't have to spend on an additional $20mil worth of value.

[iastfan112]

Yep and yep. If Pinto can OPS at .750, there's no reason not to move Mauer away from the position, at least on a semi-regular basis. Maybe Joe drops to catching 50 games a season. Maybe he stops catching entirely... Either would be fine with me at that point.

 

I'd add field the position well to things he needs to prove, most of the negatives I've read about him are pointed at being poor to middling defensively. I don't know that you want Ryan Doumit 2.0 as a full time catcher.