Joe Mauer position change

[darin617]

I just finished reading on rotoworld.com that Gardy is suggesting that Mauer might have to be moved to first because of concussions and possible future concussions.

 

So Twins fans (including me) hoping Justin Morneau could be resigned next season have to be bummed out now. If this is the case the Twins may as well pay 70-80% of his remaining contract and move him to a contender for a prospect.

 

So now can we say Mauer's contract is horrible when he becomes a full time 1st basemen? $23M for a light hitting 1B with good average? Maybe Mauer could still be the emergency catcher next season. You would expect Chris Herrmann to share catching duties with Josmil Pinto and that Doumit will be traded either this winter or maybe sooner...

[h=1][/h]

[Monkeypaws]

I've never bought into the position change stuff for Mauer - Fisk was a big man, and he caught into his 40s. Because there is no need for mobility, catcher is a great spot for an older guy.

 

Mauer is an excellent defensive catcher; no reason to move him out of that until his abilities decline.

[Willihammer]

Mauer's bat can play anywhere, including 1B.

 

The only spot it doesn't play is the DL.

[Monkeypaws]

If I'm the Twins, I want to milk every last cent out of that obscene contract - DHs and 1Bs don't make 20+ million a season without hitting 50 HRs a year.

[Mr. Brooks]

I just finished reading on rotoworld.com that Gardy is suggesting that Mauer might have to be moved to first because of concussions and possible future concussions.

 

So Twins fans (including me) hoping Justin Morneau could be resigned next season have to be bummed out now. If this is the case the Twins may as well pay 70-80% of his remaining contract and move him to a contender for a prospect.

 

So now can we say Mauer's contract is horrible when he becomes a full time 1st basemen? $23M for a light hitting 1B with good average? Maybe Mauer could still be the emergency catcher next season. You would expect Chris Herrmann to share catching duties with Josmil Pinto and that Doumit will be traded either this winter or maybe sooner...

 

 

Mauer's current OPS would rank 3rd in the AL, and 5th in MLB among 1st baseman this year.

And his numbers would probably go up a bit without the rigors of catching. Don't laugh. His numbers go down incrementally from OPS after 1 consecutive day catching, to OPS after 2 consecutive days catching, to 3 days, to 4 days, etc. (As I'm sure is the case with all catchers.)

If he could gain even 25 pts of OPS by moving out from behind the plate, he'd be a top 3 to 5 1B'man in MLB every year.

Obviously his bat has more value at C than 1B, I'm not disputing that. But it's not like he's suddenly a "light hitter" if he moves to 1B, he'd still be right among the league leaders in offensive production at that position as well. Unless of course I'm talking to someone who thinks only HR and RBI matter (I don't know, so sorry if you are not), in that case I obviously cannot make an argument that will change your mind.

[Mr. Brooks]

If I'm the Twins, I want to milk every last cent out of that obscene contract - DHs and 1Bs don't make 20+ million a season without hitting 50 HRs a year.

 

Mark Teixeira?

[Monkeypaws]

Mark Teixeira?

 

Touche!

 

Still, Morneau's contract topped out at what, 14 mil? Mauer got the big bucks because he is an elite catcher. If you take New York out of the equation, he is still the 2nd highest paid guy after Cliff Lee.

[Mr. Brooks]

Touche!

 

Still, Morneau's contract topped out at what, 14 mil? Mauer got the big bucks because he is an elite catcher. If you take New York out of the equation, he is still the 2nd highest paid guy after Cliff Lee.

 

I don't disagree that his bat plays better at C. That shouldn't even need to be stated.

Sure, he'd probably be overpaid a bit at 1B, but not by a ton. Justin would probably have been underpaid had he stayed healthy and continued to hit like he was. So, IMO you split the difference (14.5 and 23), and that is about what Mauer is probably "worth" as a first baseman.

[Monkeypaws]

I don't disagree that his bat plays better at C. That shouldn't even need to be stated.

Sure, he'd probably be overpaid a bit at 1B, but not by a ton. Justin would probably have been underpaid had he stayed healthy and continued to hit like he was. So, IMO you split the difference (14.5 and 23), and that is about what Mauer is probably "worth" as a first baseman.

 

Fair enough, especially if you get additional production. Still, if we bemoan the millions thrown away on Blackburn, and for some Correia, yet somehow this flies.

[Mr. Brooks]

Fair enough, especially if you get additional production. Still, if we bemoan the millions thrown away on Blackburn, and for some Correia, yet somehow this flies.

 

Overpaying by $4 or $5 million for a 6 WAR player is not the same as spending $4 or $5 million on a replacement level player.

[Guest USAFChief]

I argued for years that Mauer should have been playing third base.

 

I've never bought into the "Mauer's hits count for more as a catcher" thing, but even if one believes that, I think we can all agree that "Mauer not in the lineup" is where he really becomes overpaid.

 

I also think there's a good chance he hits better if he's not catching.

 

i m opposed to dumping Morneau, but if part of that plan includes making Mauer the every day 1st baseman and finding a good regular catcher (Brian McCann?) I could get behind that.

[Mr. Brooks]

I argued for years that Mauer should have been playing third base.

 

I've never bought into the "Mauer's hits count for more as a catcher" thing, but even if one believes that, I think we can all agree that "Mauer not in the lineup" is where he really becomes overpaid.

 

I also think there's a good chance he hits better if he's not catching.

 

i m opposed to dumping Morneau, but if part of that plan includes making Mauer the every day 1st baseman and finding a good regular catcher (Brian McCann?) I could get behind that.

 

It's not that his hits count more as a catcher.

It's that his bat has more value as a catcher, because whoever replaces him at catcher is more than likely going to be much less of an offensive asset than whomever Mauer replaces at 1B or 3B or RF. That isn't really something to buy into or not buy into, its pure math.

It's just not easy to find a catcher who can hit, but even a league average 1B, 3B or RF is going to have a decent bat.

[Tibs]

Any team would want a bat like Joe Mauer's on the team no matter what position he plays.

[Guest USAFChief]

That isn't really something to buy into or not buy into, its pure math.

We'll just have to disagree on that.

 

i think the math says a single to left counts the same on offense no matter where you line up when you take the field on defense.

[Seth Stohs]

I want Mauer to play 150 games a year for the next 5-6 years. If it's 75 at catcher the next couple of years and the rest between 1B and DH, that would be great. If it's moving to 1B completely, I'm fine with that. I get that his WAR for the exact same numbers will be higher at 1B... but as has been pointed out, he has 0 value if he's hurt. Of course, 1B can get hurt too... MOrneau's concussion came on the base paths. But, it reduces the odds.

 

Mackey made a great point on the radio last night. What would Miguel Cabrera be as a hitter if he was a catcher? Obviously they'd still be good, but they wouldn't be as good because of the beating... Likewise, could Mauer be even a little better a hitter by not catching? I think so.

[diehardtwinsfan]

We'll just have to disagree on that.

 

i think the math says a single to left counts the same on offense no matter where you line up when you take the field on defense.

 

It's not that it counts more, it's that catchers as a whole tend to get a lot less of them. This is what makes Mauer valuable. Mauer is an HOF as a catcher. As a 1B, I doubt he makes it. He's just good, not great. That's why it matters.

 

That said, getting him some time there right now will help keep him fresh for catching as he ages. I'm fine with that as we want him catching when the next wave arrives.

[Beezer07]

We'll just have to disagree on that.

 

i think the math says a single to left counts the same on offense no matter where you line up when you take the field on defense.

 

Again, you're arguing how much his hits count. Everyone else is arguing that his value as a hitter is higher (and much, much higher) as a catcher than as a 1B or DH. And again, there isn't any disputing this, as it's based on math. If you don't agree with WAR, or the math behind it, that's fine. But a good-hitting catcher is worth way more to a team than a good-hitting first baseman. Why? because you can find a decent 1B a lot of other places, while most other catchers are complete garbage on offense.

[Tibs]

It's not that it counts more, it's that catchers as a whole tend to get a lot less of them. This is what makes Mauer valuable. Mauer is an HOF as a catcher. As a 1B, I doubt he makes it. He's just good, not great. That's why it matters.

 

That said, getting him some time there right now will help keep him fresh for catching as he ages. I'm fine with that as we want him catching when the next wave arrives.

 

I agree that he has more value as a catcher, but I disagree with the idea that a certain position should produce a certain way. If a team hits 150 homers and scores say 750 runs, why should it matter who hits the homeruns and scores/drives in the runs?

[darin617]

Any team would want a bat like Joe Mauer's on the team no matter what position he plays.

 

How many of the other 29 teams would take Mauer if he was placed on waivers and the Twins just said he's all yours and enjoy the contract! Maybe 3-5 teams would.

[Tibs]

How many of the other 29 teams would take Mauer if he was placed on waivers and the Twins just said he's all yours and enjoy the contract! Maybe 3-5 teams would.

 

My post doesn't mention his contract.

[IdahoPilgrim]

How many of the other 29 teams would take Mauer if he was placed on waivers and the Twins just said he's all yours and enjoy the contract! Maybe 3-5 teams would.

 

I think at this point his contract is pretty much irrelevant - it is what it is and is not going to change.

 

I agree that having the primary focus on matching his output to his position is overstated and overrated. For me, have him play the position that's going to maximize his plate appearances. That's the only math I'm caring about.

[cmathewson]

If I'm the Twins, I want to milk every last cent out of that obscene contract - DHs and 1Bs don't make 20+ million a season without hitting 50 HRs a year.

 

Do you do that if he is one foul tip from ending his career and forcing us to eat the rest of his contract? Moving him to 1B is risk management.

[Joe A. Preusser]

How many of the other 29 teams would take Mauer if he was placed on waivers and the Twins just said he's all yours and enjoy the contract! Maybe 3-5 teams would.

 

Try 20-25, maybe more. If there were a second Joe Mauer then even the thrifty Twins might claim him off waivers and play him somewhere else. Elite players are very hard to get, and Mauer is most definitely elite.

[stringer bell]

I am pretty convinced that Mauer, in his thirties, would be a somewhat more powerful, better hitter as a first baseman. Would he be worth $23M? I don't know, but a batting champ with 20 homers and a .900+ OPS playing 150+ games would be pretty good. If Mauer is willing, I think the Twins should make the switch. It is extremely tough to build your club and lineup around a catcher. They miss games and have to be slotted at other positions if the team wants more than 600 PAs from the player. Different players wear down at different rates, but Mauer's bat is too valuable to the Twins to have him miss more and more time as the years go by.

[Joe A. Preusser]

I think at this point his contract is pretty much irrelevant - it is what it is and is not going to change.

 

I agree that having the primary focus on matching his output to his position is overstated and overrated. For me, have him play the position that's going to maximize his plate appearances. That's the only math I'm caring about.

 

But it's not only about maximizing Mauer's plate appearances, it's about maximizing the potential for whatever his replacement does.

 

Example 1: Mauer plays catcher and Player A plays first base.

Mauer = .320, .400, .450 Replacement Level Player A = .290, .330, .440

 

Example 2: Mauer plays first base and Player A catches.

Mauer = .340, .420, .470 Replacement Level Player A = .240, .290, .410

 

Clearly example 1, where Mauer catches and we insert a league average 1B into the lineup gives us more production out of the two positions. In example 2, even though Mauer's individual numbers go up, the total production out of the same two positions goes way down. This is why Mauer has so much value as a catcher.

[IdahoPilgrim]

But it's not only about maximizing Mauer's plate appearances, it's about maximizing the potential for whatever his replacement does.

 

Example 1: Mauer plays catcher and Player A plays first base.

Mauer = .320, .400, .450 Replacement Level Player A = .290, .330, .440

 

Example 2: Mauer plays first base and Player A catches.

Mauer = .340, .420, .470 Replacement Level Player A = .240, .290, .410

 

Clearly example 1, where Mauer catches and we insert a league average 1B into the lineup gives us more production out of the two positions. In example 2, even though Mauer's individual numbers go up, the total production out of the same two positions goes way down. This is why Mauer has so much value as a catcher.

 

I respectfully disagree. What can play "what if" games ad infinitum with the ubiquitous "replacement level player" to maximize production, and we could add to that enhancing other areas to make up the deficit, but I still believe we should concentrate on maximizing the known quantity, the one who is actually under contract until 2018, first.

[COtwin]

I think I would be much more worried if Doumit and Hermann were the only options. Pinto makes the idea of a Mauer switch to first base much more palatable in my opinion. Trade Doumit. Hermann moves to the bench as a catcher / corner outfielder (rarely but still useful). Pinto becomes everyday catcher. If Pinto works out then maybe Morneau gets resigned to a reasonable contract to play DH and back up Mauer. Gardy would still have three guys who can play catcher. Keep one infield utility and a flexible outfielder and we still have room for a power bench bat, two if we stop this 13 pitcher craziness.

[Mr. Brooks]

I agree that he has more value as a catcher, but I disagree with the idea that a certain position should produce a certain way. If a team hits 150 homers and scores say 750 runs, why should it matter who hits the homeruns and scores/drives in the runs?

 

It doesn't. But you are going to have a lot easier time scoring those 750 runs with a catcher who can OPS .880 than with a catcher who will OPS .700.

 

You admitted that he has more value as a catcher, if u explain in words why, you will probably find yourself making the same argument as me.

[stringer bell]

I think I would be much more worried if Doumit and Hermann were the only options. Pinto makes the idea of a Mauer switch to first base much more palatable in my opinion. Trade Doumit. Hermann moves to the bench as a catcher / corner outfielder (rarely but still useful). Pinto becomes everyday catcher. If Pinto works out then maybe Morneau gets resigned to a reasonable contract to play DH and back up Mauer. Gardy would still have three guys who can play catcher. Keep one infield utility and a flexible outfielder and we still have room for a power bench bat, two if we stop this 13 pitcher craziness.

Most of what you said makes sense to me, but signing Morneau as a DH/bench bat doesn't fit. I think the Twins can find others to fill that role at a far smaller price and would do so if they decide Mauer is a first baseman.

[Kwak]

Mauer to 1B--to deflect the negative press when Morneau leaves. Curious we didn't hear the "we need a third catcher refrain". Every time Joe gets an oowie the "move Mauer" birds start to chirp. They quiet down when he's back at catcher and things are "Jake".