Dump Gardenhire now.

[edavis0308]

About as much hindsight as seeing someone skating on a lake in April with a blowtorch and feeling that there might be a happy ending to that situation...

 

Where do they do that? I'd pay to see that.

[cmathewson]

If ya ain't gonna ever try to stretch him out, why even bother having him in the rotation? You can't ask the bullpen to pick up 4 innings every dam time Pelphrey pitches. Most baseball fans can only think short term. Gardy's thinking long term, and you might have to sacrifice a game here and there, but you gotta get innings from your starters or your bullpen's gonna be overworked.

 

I'm sure that was going through Gardy's mind. I mean, he was at 80 pitches or something and he was already out of gas? Well, yes he was, and it was obvious to everyone watching. If he can't get through six innings, it's on the GM, not Gardy. Gardy has to make the calls to win games. Leaving him out there to "stretch him out" was not the call to win that game, and it did more damage to the pitcher's long-term outlook than if Gardy had protected him.

 

I could see it if it was Gibson or someone who has some upside and a long-term future with the team. But Pelfrey is just a stop gap. You manage with him to win now, not to play for another day.

[golfboy1]

If ya ain't gonna ever try to stretch him out, why even bother having him in the rotation? You can't ask the bullpen to pick up 4 innings every dam time Pelphrey pitches. Most baseball fans can only think short term. Gardy's thinking long term, and you might have to sacrifice a game here and there, but you gotta get innings from your starters or your bullpen's gonna be overworked.

 

Pelfrey has been struggling so they should have taken him out while he still had a good start going. Plus, they SHOULD try to win every game that is winnable.

 

The average ML starting pitcher goes 5.7 innings per start so if you are getting 5 innings from your worst starter I would consider that a success. They don't have to ;pull him every time he gets 5 innings in but I don't see the logic of blowing a game just so Pelfrey can get stretched out. They still pulled him after 5.3 IP but it was after the damage was done.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Was it a bad decision? In hindsight yes, but I can't pin this loss all on Gardenhire, let alone have it be the basis for his dismissal.

 

Let's give credit here where credit is due, and assign blame fairly. This wasn't a Gardenhire loss - it was a Scherzer win, helped by the Twins lineup going 1-for-8 with runners in scoring position. And is a 3-run homer by Fielder really so surprising? The guy is going to get his dingers regardless of who is pitching.

[Riverbrian]

I didn't see the game... It does seem a bit harsh to call for his replacement based on one game.

 

I assume that Gardenhire will blow another one or seven before the year is out and I assume that any replacement for Gardenhire will blow one or seven before the year is out.

[drjim]

Gardy would be a much better manager if he didn't actually have Pelfrey as a starter.

[jun]

Well Gardenhire did pull a healthy Hernandez out after 5 innings (0 runs allowed), Hernandez also had a perfect last inning, no baserunners allowed!!! Hernandez only threw 80 pitches at that time. My point is Gardenhire should know his starting pitchers limitation, he should have stretched out Hernandez and limited Pelfrey.

[jun]

I doubt it, he would make other mistakes. The bottom line is he is not a good manager.

[Guest USAFChief]

A few points and/or rebuttals:

 

1) Anyone got any advil?

 

2) "This is not just about W/L, but for the pitcher's future." It's always about W/L, this is the major leagues. Not to mention "Pelfrey's future?" LOL. Pelfrey is signed for 1 year. His "future" is the next 5 months, as far as the Twins are concerned. And last I checked, wins in April count just as much as wins in September.

 

3) "Pelfrey is getting better every time out, so I expect Gardenhire to do the same thing next time." No, he's not getting better. At least not yet. I do agree though that Gardenhire will needlessly P away a game again, though, which is why I've reached the point where I want him gone now. That was malpractice last night.

 

4) "The goal for a starting pitcher should be AT LEAST six innings." The goal for a manager should be to win every winnable game, by using his assets in the smartest manner. If it's smart to leave the starter in, he should do so. If it's smart to take 5 decent innings and not press your luck, he should do so. You don't get extra wins because your starter lasted 6 innings.

 

5) "Don't blame Gardy, blame Pelfrey." No, Pelfrey did the best he could. It's the manager's job to realize that, and do something to prevent Pelfrey's best from predictably turning a 2 run lead into a 1 run deficit. Pelfrey was out of gas in the 5th, it doesn't take a genius to see the top of the order due up in the 6th and see what's likely to happen. I saw it coming, why shouldn't I expect the manager to see it coming? That's one of his primary jobs.

 

6) "Pitch count was 80, yada yada yada" It makes no more sense to leave a starter in simply because he hasn't reached 100 pitches than it does to yank him simply because he has. Pitch counts should be secondary to results and how many pitches a manager thinks the guy has left.

 

7) "Did anyone think we'd be at .500, yada yada yada." Entirely beside the point. Win that game, and they're 2 games over .500. Win the KC game and they're 4 games over .500. What anyone thought they'd be isn't relevant compared to what they actually could be.

 

Seriously...anyone got any advil? 6 should do it.

[jun]

Well Hernandez got pulled after throwing 80 pitches and 5 innings of no run ballgame. Hernandez had a perfect 5th inning, no baserunners allowed.

[nicksaviking]

I'm under the assumption that Gardy was still frozen in shock that Pelfrey's pitch count was only 72 after 5 innings.

 

Duensing should have faced Fielder but I don't believe for a second you people actually think an overachieving team playing .500 baseball would fire a manager in April after a 12 year tenure.

 

Besides, as stated above, for every finger pointed at Gardenhire, two should be pointing at Ryan. Pelfrey is not an adaquately functional pitcher at this point but since the GM paid the recent TJ victim and paid him well, he's been obligated to remain in the rotation which has been killing the bullpen. It's no shock Gardenhire clung to Pelfrey's one shining moment hoping against hope that the guy would prove something last night.

 

And this is coming from someone who has NOT been a traditional Gardenhire defender.

[Guest USAFChief]

 

Duensing should have faced Fielder but I don't believe for a second you people actually think an overachieving team playing .500 baseball would fire a manager in April after a 12 year tenure.

 

I don't. I'm simply stating what I wish would happen, not what I think will happen.

 

As for the rest, Gardenhire is paid to manage the players he has. Discussions of Ryan are certainly valid--and there are no shortage of them--but that has nothing to do with Gardenhire's management of last night's game.

[Otto von Ballpark]

One of the less-acknowledged effects of modern pitch count watching is that not only are starters usually pulled around 100 pitches, they are very rarely pulled before 80 or 90 pitches.

 

Last night, Pelfrey wasn't dominating, but he survived 5 innings with under 80 pitches and I'm sure Gardy was shooting for 90+ before pulling him. Look at Pelfrey's pitch counts this year:

 

96

62 (his disastrous start against KC)

96

94

90

 

Also Gardy was probably aiming to get Pelfrey through the 6th inning for the first time this year, so he could bring in his "7th inning guys" the following inning.

 

It's all kinda silly, when Pelfrey's been so shaky lately, your bullpen is fully rested, you've got a lead in the 6th inning against a good team, and the heart of their order is due up in the 6th. At the very least, he should have a leash, and any kind of non-pitch-count leash in that scenario results in him getting pulled once two men are on, nobody's out, and a lefty slugger is at the plate.

 

Maybe this is part of why Gardy is generally a good in-season manager (at least through 2010, anyway) and not a very good playoff manager?

[ashbury]

If ya ain't gonna ever try to stretch him out, why even bother having him in the rotation? You can't ask the bullpen to pick up 4 innings every dam time Pelphrey pitches. Most baseball fans can only think short term. Gardy's thinking long term, and you might have to sacrifice a game here and there, but you gotta get innings from your starters or your bullpen's gonna be overworked.

 

There's a lot to what you're saying here. And in the view of the long season, Gardy might still be playing the "what will it take to win the Division" game. In that case, one of the cards that has to fall into place is Pelfrey contributing. I can see that inning as "it's April, still the time to see what we've got in him."

 

But where I disagree is that this wasn't the inning to do that. I was fine with sending him out for the additional inning, and was OK for the first batter reaching base. When the second one did, and Fielder coming up, then it is hardly second-guessing to say that this was enough for one day. The stretching out can continue in the next game; there was equal importance to having a good game (up to and including those two batters) as something to build upon.

[ashbury]

Well Gardenhire did pull a healthy Hernandez out after 5 innings (0 runs allowed), Hernandez also had a perfect last inning, no baserunners allowed!!! Hernandez only threw 80 pitches at that time. My point is Gardenhire should know his starting pitchers limitation, he should have stretched out Hernandez and limited Pelfrey.

 

Gardy pretty clearly has different rules/principles for young players than for established veterans. I'm not sure I would go that route every time, but I bet he could explain it to me if he had a motivation to try.

[70charger]

6) "Pitch count was 80, yada yada yada" It makes no more sense to leave a starter in simply because he hasn't reached 100 pitches than it does to yank him simply because he has. Pitch counts should be secondary to results and how many pitches a manager thinks the guy has left.

 

It's a real problem with pitch counts, isn't it? Somewhere along the way we decided 100 was a magic number. This not only ignores the "horses" of the game, but it is detrimental to those who struggle with high pitch counts for whatever reason, be it fragility, being out of shape, or - like Pelfrey - not having the gas in the tank because of record-setting comeback from TJ.

 

It goes both ways. Just like you wouldn't have wanted Bert Blyleven or Nolan Ryan or Jack Morris yanked every sixth inning, you don't want a guy like post-surgery Pelfrey pummeled every sixth inning. Pitch count is individual. Or at least it should be.

[Aaron Cross]

I wanna see pelphrey bear down and get fielder out. Cant stand people always clamoring to yank the starter. Until recent years, gardy has always had the quick hook and he's always overused his bullpen. He's finally evolved as a manager and realized he has to get innings from his starters, and all people can do is bitch.

[Willihammer]

pelphrey bear

 

Who's that, a challenger to TC Bear?

 

One of the conventional wisdoms that I've never understood is that you adjust the length of your starters' leashes depending on whether or not you are on the road. Anyone care to elaborate?

[Boom Boom]

I want to see Pelfrey get Fielder out too, but the manager has to realize that it's a bad matchup, especially at that point in the game and especially if Duensing is going to be coming in anyway.

[cmathewson]

I wanna see pelphrey bear down and get fielder out. Cant stand people always clamoring to yank the starter. Until recent years, gardy has always had the quick hook and he's always overused his bullpen. He's finally evolved as a manager and realized he has to get innings from his starters, and all people can do is bitch.

 

The manager does two things to help a team win: The line-up card and making pitching changes. It's his job to determine if the pitcher on the field is a good choice in this phase of the game. You can say he should just bear down and get the guy out. But if he's out of gas, no amount of bearing down is going to help him get out of a jam.

[ashbury]

I wanna see pelphrey bear down

 

An implication that Pelf isn't tough enough or whatever just sounds crazy considering nobody's come back from TJ surgery faster. What if he already bore down the previous inning, and is simply physically exhausted? You can't just keep telling the guy "yeah, do that, *again*". Well, you can, and he'll try. But.

[Guest USAFChief]

I wanna see pelphrey bear down and get fielder out. Cant stand people always clamoring to yank the starter. Until recent years, gardy has always had the quick hook and he's always overused his bullpen. He's finally evolved as a manager and realized he has to get innings from his starters, and all people can do is bitch.

Even granting your assumptions here...call me crazy but I'll take the "quick hook, always overusing his bullpen" Gardy who managed to win 90 games with some regularity over the "evolved" Gardy who has lost 190 over the past two seasons. I'd prefer one who paid less attention to "getting innings" and more to getting wins.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

oh look. This thread again.

 

Yeah let's fire the manager for not wanting to overuse his bullpen early in the year by not pulling a starter who looked like he was finally getting it together.

[snepp]

Looked like he was "finally getting it together?" He was falling apart at the end of the game.

 

 

 

Making managerial decisions based on a cliche probably isn't very sound strategy.

[Guest USAFChief]

oh look. This thread again.

 

Yeah let's fire the manager for not wanting to overuse his bullpen early in the year by not pulling a starter who looked like he was finally getting it together.

I can only assume then, that you're miffed at Gardy for pulling Pelfrey when he did. Right? Shoulda left him in the game to finish the 6th, right? Since he looked like he was finally getting it together, and not wanting to overuse his bullpen and all, right? Otherwise, please explain why it would have been bad to pull Pelfrey BEFORE the damage was done, but OK to pull him AFTER the lead was gone. In the same inning and all.

[Ultima Ratio]

Jeebus chief, the ball was coming out of his hand real good! ALRIGHT! You don't pull a guy who's getting his stuff together, battling his tail off, and whose pitches are coming out of the hand darn good, got it? http://deephousepage.com/smilies/Disappointed_anim.gif

[Kobs]

Looked like he was "finally getting it together?" He was falling apart at the end of the game. Making managerial decisions based on a cliche probably isn't very sound strategy.

It is if you want to keep the sportswriters from pointing the finger at you. Managers have been doing it for 100+ years.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Yeah let's fire the manager for not wanting to overuse his bullpen early in the year by not pulling a starter who looked like he was finally getting it together.

 

I'm not necessarily calling for Gardy's firing like the original poster, but here are the guys who have been in the Twins bullpen all year and their current games and innings pitched paces:

 

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 200]

Pitcher

G

IP

Glen Perkins

63

58

Josh Roenicke

56

85

Jared Burton

70

64

Casey Fien

77

63

Brian Duensing

70

57

Ryan Pressly

49

72

[/TABLE]

 

This is not yet a bullpen that desperately needs three extra outs from Mike Pelfrey to avoid overuse. In fact, our relief ace Perkins is on pace for career lows in games and innings.

 

When you factor in his late start, Swarzak is on a bit of a high pace right now, but he's also the long man and spot starter so it's not really comparable to the core bullpen guys.

[Aaron Cross]

And a short start from Worley.

[johnnydakota]

If ya ain't gonna ever try to stretch him out, why even bother having him in the rotation? You can't ask the bullpen to pick up 4 innings every dam time Pelphrey pitches. Most baseball fans can only think short term. Gardy's thinking long term, and you might have to sacrifice a game here and there, but you gotta get innings from your starters or your bullpen's gonna be overworked.

 

So your suggesting we play for a victory or 2 in August?

Anyone remember how Nathan fared his 1st half , compared to the 2nd half after his return?If your not going to baby him back into being a 6 and 7 inning pitcher here , then send him down till july,and let him get it together in Rochester.....And by no means is the rotation Rons fault, that is squarely on ownership and Ryans shoulders, but the mismanagement of it belongs to Anderson and Gardenhire