Remember Me?

[old nurse]

yes, he was unhappy later...but he didn't complain and whine about it right away...he accepted it, tried it, but he had issues doing it...so then he voiced the issues.

So it is ok when the players complain in the media about things, but when the manager does it he lacks leadership? But Slowey was not the type of pitcher that should have been in the bullpen. After 2010 he should have been traded to a team that looks at a 13-6 record and drooled.

[ThePuck]

So it is ok when the players complain in the media about things, but when the manager does it he lacks leadership? But Slowey was not the type of pitcher that should have been in the bullpen. After 2010 he should have been traded to a team that looks at a 13-6 record and drooled.

 

No, actually, it isn't...but the Twins made it public...the Twins slammed him publically (especially Gardy) for it and instead of whimpering to himself and keeping his mouth shut, Slowey countered.

 

And, BTW, Slowey isn't the leader on the team, Gardy is. You wanna apply leadership principles to non-leaders.

[gunnarthor]

Uhh, I intended to only include the time that Slowey was healthy, none of the time when he wasn't- it's a direct apples-to-apples comparison timeline of the first 4 full years of their careers, Slowey's effectiveness as a starter is better, Blackburn was better as a "healthy" but very mediocre and inconsistent innings-eater, Slowey, as history has demonstrated, had something very wrong with him in April-May of 2011- with the level of Twins culpability up for debate, so you sorta got it completly wrong. In addition Blackburn was horrible in 2010 (he was ranked 99th out of 102 SPs by Fangraphs with a 5.42 ERA) and though he started OK in 2011, he ended up so ineffectively bad in July and August of that year (an ERA just under 7.00- every start was a struggle to even get to the 5th inning) he was shut down for the year just past mid-August and obviously got even worse last year, so epically bad (7.39 ERA) that he most likely, at age 31, is done for his career. By contrast, Slowey, at age 28, appears to have become healthy enough again to at least have a small-to-medium chance at reviving his career.

 

Since Slowey was never healthy, it doesn't really make sense to compare an event (his healthy season) that happened 3 years ago to determine who should start going forward. Blackburn was horrible in 2010 but finished very strong after coming off the DL just as Slowey started to pitch so badly he wasn't placed on the post season roster. Slowey was the worse pitcher in 2011 and didn't pitch at all in the majors in 2012 and missed most of the year with another injury. Kind of hard to fault the Twins for giving up on him there. It's nice that he's had 3 starts in Miami this year but it really means nothing.

[jay]

the Twins slammed him publically (especially Gardy) for it and instead of whimpering to himself and keeping his mouth shut, Slowey countered.

 

This is very true. We've bought into the narrative that Gardy sells on a number of occassions. Slowey is a bad guy... Garza, Lohse, even Perkins. I remember an awful lot of people wanting Perk shipped out of town, mostly due to Gardy's doghouse. Glen seems to be just about the only guy that has ever made it out.

 

More and more, I can't buy into the stuff that Gardy spews. Look at the recent crap about Hicks not running out that fly... give me a break.

 

My personal take: don't let Gardy's rants cloud your view of a player's personality.

[ThePuck]

My personal take: don't let Gardy's rants cloud your view of a player's personality.

 

I don't...Gardy just makes himself look worse every time he does it...and in Slowey's situation, he made himself look petty...which also isn't a rare thing for him.

[TheLeviathan]

Since Slowey was never healthy, it doesn't really make sense to compare an event (his healthy season) that happened 3 years ago to determine who should start going forward. Blackburn was horrible in 2010 but finished very strong after coming off the DL just as Slowey started to pitch so badly he wasn't placed on the post season roster. Slowey was the worse pitcher in 2011 and didn't pitch at all in the majors in 2012 and missed most of the year with another injury. Kind of hard to fault the Twins for giving up on him there. It's nice that he's had 3 starts in Miami this year but it really means nothing.

 

All of that is very fair. I think it's possible to say the Twins handled this poorly without putting it on an undue pedestal. Yes, lots of teams err in this way but that doesn't change that it was an error. Part of why these conversations spin out is because on group steadfastly denies anything was done wrong while the other makes it out to be a crime of the century.

 

Im just rooting for the guy to spite this team's petty, pathetic public campaign to pin the demise of our team on him. If anything I want them to learn not to go so nuclear in public. As others have said, we are lucky that same nonsense didn't cost us Perkins too. Just be professional about handling these things if they are so commonplace.

[Guest USAFChief]

I always liked Slowey. I always thought he was a better pitcher than Blackburn. I think the Twins mishandled Slowey to a certain extent, and I found the anti-Slowey campaign sort of distasteful and certainly counterproductive. All that said, it's hard to get too upset about the ultimate handling of Slowey. He was about to get expensive and his production and health didn't warrant the expense. Given that, there wasn't much trade market. Slowey at $750K on a bad team is about where he belongs given the past few years. Good for him.

[snepp]

Hindsight can make one look so smart. The mistake of signing Blackburn to a long term deal was based on the notion he was going to stay healthy and effective.

 

The Blackburn contract didn't require hindsight, it was lousy, and got panned, right from day one.

[stringer bell]

I don't want to read through this whole thread, but isn't it true that back of the roatation starters just don't last with their teams? Slowey might figure as a 4th/5th starter--hardly any of them remain with one squad for long. Who are the five worst pitchers that have been with the same team for five years? I would make an exception to this question for injury, but you don't find many guys who are 4th/5th starters that stay with one team.

[gunnarthor]

I don't want to read through this whole thread, but isn't it true that back of the roatation starters just don't last with their teams? Slowey might figure as a 4th/5th starter--hardly any of them remain with one squad for long. Who are the five worst pitchers that have been with the same team for five years? I would make an exception to this question for injury, but you don't find many guys who are 4th/5th starters that stay with one team.

 

Good point. Sorta depends on what we mean by back end starter. Slowey and Blackburn's 3 good seasons saw them put up somewhere (roughly) between 160-200 innings, 100-105ish ERA+, and somewhere between 2-3 WAR. If that's the criteria, then I think Tim Wakefield (04-11) would be the prime example.

[diehardtwinsfan]

A few things here:

 

1) I'm not sure it's been said, but there's no way the Twins keep Slowey. He was arb eligible, fighting through a nasty injury, and was ineffective. For the arb reason alone, he was going to end up somewhere else. He was too expensive to warrant his production.

 

2) Slowey was not the one that went public. It was the other way around. I'm not saying he was an awesome pitcher by any means, and I have no idea how he handled it in the clubhouse away from the media, but the Twins really looked classless with this one, just as they tend to do sometimes. And let's not pretend it was just him, Neshek, Bartlett, Morneau, and others had to put up with this kind of treatment. I do hope that part of the new manager/accountability era will be to clean that kind of stuff up. There's really not an excuse for it, especially for an organization that prides itself in being professional.

 

3) Slowey was "given a chance" to earn that spot, but everyone and his brother knew he was the odd one out, no matter how well he did.

 

4) Telling him to suck it up regarding the bull pen assignment is ridiculous, as is insinuating that he tanked. I have no doubt that he wasn't happy about the decision, and I have no doubt that he tried his best. The reality is that he was going to get a shot as a starter, as you can almost always count on one starter going down. It didn't work out. Where it went from there is my problem.

 

5) With Slowey, I'll always wonder about what could have been. I dont' think he would have been ace, but at that time he was drawing comps to Halladay and he was starting to blossom. He really looked like he was going to be an above average pitcher until he got hit by that line drive. I wish him the best, and I hope he's finally recovered. If so, the Marlins will be able to flip him for a nice prospect in a year.

[The Wise One]

According to the thread the great hindsight shown by some is that Slowey will be a good pitcher now and Blackburn's contract was unwise. I would imagine that someone thought there was a better chance of Blackburn turning into a Brandon Webb than Slowey of becomeing a Halliday,. Thus Blackburn got rich, Slowey got burned.

[one_eyed_jack]

5) With Slowey, I'll always wonder about what could have been. I dont' think he would have been ace, but at that time he was drawing comps to Halladay and he was starting to blossom. He really looked like he was going to be an above average pitcher until he got hit by that line drive. I wish him the best, and I hope he's finally recovered. If so, the Marlins will be able to flip him for a nice prospect in a year.

 

---All rightee, this thread has officially jumped the shark. Slowey blossoming into another Halladay? Wow.

[cmathewson]

A few things here:

 

 

5) With Slowey, I'll always wonder about what could have been. I dont' think he would have been ace, but at that time he was drawing comps to Halladay and he was starting to blossom. He really looked like he was going to be an above average pitcher until he got hit by that line drive. I wish him the best, and I hope he's finally recovered. If so, the Marlins will be able to flip him for a nice prospect in a year.

 

Now this is what I call revisionist history. I don't ever remember comps to Halladay, outside of his mother and a few bloggers who had a bromance going with his minor league numbers (ahem, Seth).

 

Kevin Slowey had a decent fastball and very good control. What Halladay has and Slowey never has had is a major league second or third pitch. Maybe he finally learned how to throw a change-up. Maybe he has a better breaking ball now. Maybe he learned a cutter. But he hadn't learned any of that stuff consistently when he was with the Twins, which is why he could never consistently get out of the sixth inning.

 

Comparing him to Halladay is just laughable. It is like Aaron Gleeman comparing him to Johan Santana. But Halladay is a future HOF pitcher. Santana is maybe a Twins HOF pitcher. It's still utterly ridiculous to compare a fifth starter (at best) with a Cy Young award winner. But it actually makes more sense than the Halladay comp.

 

As for "blossoming," I don't know what you're talking about. He had one year with an ERA+ over 100 and it was four years prior to his departure. Otherwise, he was consistently below average (in the low 90s). Slowey had two healthy seasons of his five with the Twins in which he pitched around 160 innings. Otherwise, he couldn't break 100. (By comparison, Halladay's career average ERA+ is 133, and his has pitched over 200 innings 8 times in his career).

[diehardtwinsfan]

---All rightee, this thread has officially jumped the shark. Slowey blossoming into another Halladay? Wow.

 

It jumped the shark the moment you missed the point.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Now this is what I call revisionist history. I don't ever remember comps to Halladay, outside of his mother and a few bloggers who had a bromance going with his minor league numbers (ahem, Seth).

 

Kevin Slowey had a decent fastball and very good control. What Halladay has and Slowey never has had is a major league second or third pitch. Maybe he finally learned how to throw a change-up. Maybe he has a better breaking ball now. Maybe he learned a cutter. But he hadn't learned any of that stuff consistently when he was with the Twins, which is why he could never consistently get out of the sixth inning.

 

Comparing him to Halladay is just laughable. It is like Aaron Gleeman comparing him to Johan Santana. But Halladay is a future HOF pitcher. Santana is maybe a Twins HOF pitcher. It's still utterly ridiculous to compare a fifth starter (at best) with a Cy Young award winner. But it actually makes more sense than the Halladay comp.

 

As for "blossoming," I don't know what you're talking about. He had one year with an ERA+ over 100 and it was four years prior to his departure. Otherwise, he was consistently below average (in the low 90s). Slowey had two healthy seasons of his five with the Twins in which he pitched around 160 innings. Otherwise, he couldn't break 100. (By comparison, Halladay's career average ERA+ is 133, and his has pitched over 200 innings 8 times in his career).

 

Slowey continued pitching after that injury and watched his stats absolutely tank that year. That's the danger in just looking at year to year stats. Whether it was bromancing blogger love, or just his mother hacking a few websites, the comps existed (adequate or not). You sighted Gleeman as an example, and it goes right into the point I was making. Slowey was a very good prospect that was starting to figure things out. He unfortunately took a line drive to the wrist and was never the same. I did not say that he's a future HOFer. I did say that he could have been an above average pitcher, and right now I think most of us would kill for something like that in our rotation where none presently exists.

[cmathewson]

Slowey continued pitching after that injury and watched his stats absolutely tank that year. That's the danger in just looking at year to year stats. Whether it was bromancing blogger love, or just his mother hacking a few websites, the comps existed (adequate or not). You sighted Gleeman as an example, and it goes right into the point I was making. Slowey was a very good prospect that was starting to figure things out. He unfortunately took a line drive to the wrist and was never the same. I did not say that he's a future HOFer. I did say that he could have been an above average pitcher, and right now I think most of us would kill for something like that in our rotation where none presently exists.

 

Nothing in his numbers showed improvement. Many of his numbers were regressing. In particular, his numbers the second and third time through the order continued to deteriorate as more major league hitters figured out that the only time he threw a breaking ball for a strike it was a hanger. That was why most bloggers I read thought he'd be a better fit in the bullpen. He dominated the first time through. After that, it got worse and worse as guys timed his fastball. You can go back and look at the numbers. They ain't pretty.

[jokin]

Dateline- Cincinnati, 11:45 EST, April 20

 

Hello again, Twins fans. Slow-Poke here again. I was scoreboard-watching at Great American BP today and noticed a curious anomaly. My old mates came up with a very nice away win against the hated Tidy-Whities with a nice pitcher's duel, late-inninng, 2-1 win. Just to update your next opponent at Target Field on Monday, my new team, the Marlins, also got a nice 2-1, late-rally win against the Redlegs last night. It was my 4th outing of the season against one of the top 4 hitting teams in baseball, and coming off of consecutive 11 run games. Despite similarly difficult conditions to what you've become accustomed to in Minneapolis- 42 degree game time temp, quickly soon after falling into the upper 30s, I was able to hold the Reds to 1 run and 4 hits over 6 innings, lowering my ERA to a BUCK.90 and my ERA+ is now 207.

 

How're the wrist and ribs feeling? Glad you asked. After a long, tough go of it, I'm finally fully healthy. My old Twins battery-mate, and now my boss, Mike Redmond, was quoted in the Herald saying: "I've never seen him pitch better than he is right now" But then, he's also willing to listen to me when I want to have an in-depth discussion on baseball math uses for parabolas from the Cissoid of Diocles; or whether alleged journalists like Jim Souhan, Jim Rome and Jim Gray are even worthy to carry the literary jockstraps of Grantland Rice, Red Smith and Shirley Povich. Of course, upon further reflection, that might be a bad choice of metaphor, Red Dog hasn't changed much- he still prefers having those locker room discussions sans jockstrap, or anything else on his body, for that matter. Not surprisingly, his loose vibe goes over well down here at South Beach, the losing puts itself in perspective when characterized by his free-spirited ways.

 

Looking forward to saying hello to all my MN friends and well-wishers next week. Do you think I might get a chance to do an in-game, "welcome back" interview with DicknBert?

[glunn]

I can understand that some people seem to feel strongly that the Twins mishandled Slowey. I even agree that in some respects they may be correct.

 

On the other hand, I am also getting a vibe as if at least some people will be happy if Slowey no hits the Twins. Since this is a Twins fan site, rooting for an opponent is inherently inflammatory and I urge people to be very respectful of each other if they want to post here.

 

If I did not have a commitment to enforce TD policy, I would not come back to this thread. For those of us like me who may get a little angry at the concept of rooting for any opponent when they are playing against the Twins, I urge you to save yourself the grief of coming back to this thread. And if you can't resist posting, please follow the letter and spirit of TD policy.

[jokin]

 

On the other hand, I am also getting a vibe as if at least some people will be happy if Slowey no hits the Twins. Since this is a Twins fan site, rooting for an opponent is inherently inflammatory and I urge people to be very respectful of each other if they want to post here.

 

If I did not have a commitment to enforce TD policy, I would not come back to this thread. For those of us like me who may get a little angry at the concept of rooting for any opponent when they are playing against the Twins, I urge you to save yourself the grief of coming back to this thread. And if you can't resist posting, please follow the letter and spirit of TD policy.

 

I'm not following the logic here, Glunn. I haven't ever seen any Twins fan ever post anything on TD on a "concept based on rooting for an opponent when playing against the Twins." In this case, for this particular thread, that is clearly also not the intent. Furthermore, there is virtually no chance that Slowey would even pitch in this series. But the Marlins coming to town will still be a legitimate news story. Actually, it was already being hyped by both DicknBert and in the postgame recap. Dick even threw Slowey a mini-bouquet and RedDog is sure to do some media interviews regarding his time with the Twins.

 

I am a little troubled that your comments are suggesting that independent thinking is somehow dangerous, that certain folks "know" what others are thinking, and that we all need to strive harder for some kind of groupthink consensus or all hell will break loose. Part of the problem is the constantly moving target of what exactly TD policy is. Interesting and lively discussion on how to make the team better seems to have already paid dividends- even if it was only a vicarious phenomenon. The Twins appear to be following actual statistical evidence on how to improve the lineup- I never thought that the FO would actually make the tacit admission that the soft-tossing P2C strategy should be scrapped, and I never thought Gardy would commit to move Mauer to the 2-spot on a regular basis or that having only 2 catchers is smart baseball, thereby giving you a viable bench option or two (witness Doumit yesterday). Seeking kumbayah consensus isn't all it's cracked up to be. Lively debate can generate more good ideas.

 

I greatly admired the abilities of Jim Thome, Robin Ventura and Mark Buehrle but I can still separate that from the disappointment as a Twins fan when they were acting as Twins-killers.

 

Former Twins get to be part of our extended family, and I generally like to see them do well when they move on- just not against the Twins! If Slowey is still pitching for the Marlins in June, I would enjoy nothing better than if the Twins knock him out with a 5 run first inning. In the end, we all hope and expect that the Twins will pound the living daylights out of the Marlins on Monday and Tuesday. And hopefully, the Twin FO also has learned that each player they control is an asset, and they should maximize the return from the asset- as a Twins player- developed and grounded in fundamentals to get maximum performance; as an injured Twins player, in helping them recover and rehab quickly and effectively from injury; and finally, that it's bad management practices, and entirely counter-productive to badmouth and sabotage (no matter how well-deserved) a current asset's potential value to prospective suitors and future prospective players.

[glunn]

Thanks for that clarification, jokin. I am glad that we feel the same way about the Twins knocking out Slowey in the first inning if he does take the mound. I am all in favor of independent thinking so long as it does not involve rooting for an opponent to do well against the Twins.

[drjim]

So Slowey has pitched 23.2 innings. His strand rate is way up, his k rate is down, his bb rate is up, his fb rate is about the same but his hr rate has dropped significantly. Yup, I don't think this "success" lasts much longer. By mid-May imagine no one will give a second thought to Slowey. Anything to keep criticizing the Twins front office in the interim I suppose.

 

Kevin Slowey » Statistics » Pitching | FanGraphs Baseball

[ThePuck]

I am a little troubled that your comments are suggesting that independent thinking is somehow dangerous, that certain folks "know" what others are thinking, and that we all need to strive harder for some kind of groupthink consensus or all hell will break loose. Part of the problem is the constantly moving target of what exactly TD policy is.

 

This...especially the last sentence. I've read the TD policy a bunch of times, and I've yet to see in the TD policy that posters can't talk about what was said by themselves, or other posters, in the past. Yet that road got closed in the last couple days. Thing is, it's sometimes closed, sometimes not. Is this going to be added to the TD policy, along with no rooting for an ex-Twin to do well against the Twins? (which I would never do, but see no reason why that's a problem). What would be so wrong for a Slowey fan to hope he does well against the Twins but the Twins still win? Telling people who they can and can root for seems fundamentally wrong.

 

It's to the point where a debate that gets even slightly heated gets shut down...and sometimes even before it gets to that point...

[glunn]

This...especially the last sentence. I've read the TD policy a bunch of times, and I've yet to see in the TD policy that posters can't talk about what was said by themselves, or other posters, in the past. Yet that road got closed in the last couple days. Thing is, it's sometimes closed, sometimes not. Is this going to be added to the TD policy, along with no rooting for an ex-Twin to do well against the Twins? (which I would never do, but see no reason why that's a problem). What would be so wrong for a Slowey fan to hope he does well against the Twins but the Twins still win? Telling people who they can and can root for seems fundamentally wrong.

 

It's to the point where a debate that gets even slightly heated gets shut down...and sometimes even before it gets to that point...

 

With all due respect, I believe that you are incorrect as to both of your points.

 

First, if you carefully read this thread you will see that there was no problem with talking about prior posts. The problem arose when the member who was defending his position elected to tell his detractors to go search the archives for proof that he was accurately characterizing his past posts. That was disruptive and disrespectful. If you read the thread, you will see the bickering that ensued. Please be advised that when a discussion devolves into bickering, action by a moderator is likely to result.

 

Second, there is no policy against rooting for an ex-Twin to do well against the Twins. If there was such a policy, then I would have deleted some posts and closed the thread. What I did instead was suggest that anyone offended by the thread refrain from visiting the thread instead of engaging on this point.

 

Third, openly wishing for the Twins to lose a game would be inflammatory trolling, and such a post would violate the policy against trolling.

 

In my view, this thread has received a lot of latitude. Personally, I enjoy "heated" debates so long as they are respectful. But when a debates devolve into bickering that becomes more about personal attacks than baseball, this crosses the line of both the letter and spirit of TD policy.

[biggentleben]

I will be cheering for the Twins 159 games this season. Everything but 3 games in May. Is that going to be getting me das boot?

[snepp]

I will be cheering for the Twins 159 games this season. Everything but 3 games in May. Is that going to be getting me das boot?

 

I smell a temp ban on the horizon....

[glunn]

I will be cheering for the Twins 159 games this season. Everything but 3 games in May. Is that going to be getting me das boot?

 

Just follow TD policy and avoid inflammatory posting and you will be fine.

[jokin]

With all due respect, I believe that you are incorrect as to both of your points.

 

First, if you carefully read this thread you will see that there was no problem with talking about prior posts. The problem arose when the member who was defending his position elected to tell his detractors to go search the archives for proof that he was accurately characterizing his past posts. That was disruptive and disrespectful. If you read the thread, you will see the bickering that ensued. Please be advised that when a discussion devolves into bickering, action by a moderator is likely to result.

 

 

 

In my view, this thread has received a lot of latitude. Personally, I enjoy "heated" debates so long as they are respectful. But when a debates devolve into bickering that becomes more about personal attacks than baseball, this crosses the line of both the letter and spirit of TD policy.

 

Actually, the attacks and bickering began in the manner they usually do. Followed by a solid defense from the OP, followed by a a complaint to the mod from the original attacker that he is now the one being attacked.

 

I ask again, does a broad topic- widely known and discussed- which were the lead quoted comments in multiple threads started on TD- and that was central to the offseason debate and the ensuing widespread discontent with what the FO did and didn't accomplish- require the OP to document the links? Is the failure to do so really the root cause of how things got "disruptive and disrespectful?" Or could the Brother TD Members at least accept the proposed premise at face value as another Brother's thought-out, evidenced-based position- if they were truly ignorant of all that transpired in the offseason- and then engage in the debate with politeness instead of pejorative?

[biggentleben]

Just follow TD policy and avoid inflammatory posting and you will be fine.

 

In all seriousness, I don't spend a ton of time in the Twins forum, so it won't be an issue, but I may be cheering for Up, Up, and a Hey rather than the M & M boys.