Can we please end the Dozier era now?

[stringer bell]

First of all, Dozier has looked tremendous at second (yes I am a baseball fan, not a scout) and that is worth something. Secondly, it is ridiculously early in the season to make declarations about offensive numbers. I said the same thing about Parmelee, who now has the second-highest OPS on the team (of qualifiers). One or two good games and Dozier's numbers would look fine and as a matter of fact, his OPS was well over .700 after his good game in Baltimore. I think Dozier's ceiling would be in the top half of regular second basemen and his floor is Alexi Casilla w/o the basestealing.

[DaveW]

You guys can have those opinions which is fine, just mark my words, dozier will never be a legit starter in the majors, been saying it for the past year plus. He could be a mediocre util guy for a year or two but that is the best case scenario.

 

I hope I am proven wrong. But I doubt it. Now that he isn't a SS he actually needs to contribute with the bat.

[DaveW]

I think it's too early make any judgements about Dozier. It was just a couple of days ago when some thought Parmelee was looking lost at the plate.

 

Some people thought that.... Most people didn't, also it doesn't take a baseball expert to see the difference between Parmelees offensive skill set and doziers

[stringer bell]

Some people thought that.... Most people didn't, also it doesn't take a baseball expert to see the difference between Parmelees offensive skill set and doziers

Except that Dozier doesn't have to OPS .800 to be average. Something in the .750 range with good to outstanding defense would be fine, thank you.

[cmathewson]

Dozier has 364 mlb PA's.

 

Plouffe after 1st 364 mlb PA's: .226/.272/.343/.615, 10 HR, 3.4 KK/BB

Dozier after 1st 364 mlb PA's: .228/.261/.326/.587, 6 HR, 3.9 KK/BB

 

Giving up on Dozier after 364 PA's would be as silly as giving up on Plouffe after his first 364 PA's.

But, I can't say this surprises me, considering a TON of people wanted to bail on Plouffe as well.

 

This. Guys take time to develop. Physically, they don't hit their maturity until they're 26, typically. Mentally, maturity might not happen until they're 27 or 28. In Dozier's case, he also has to deal with a position change (which Plouffe went through last year). By all accounts, he's handling that well. But that takes a mental toll at the plate. Give him time to adjust. He'll never be an all-star. But he can be a solid major leaguer if they just give him a chance to learn and develop.

 

This is supposed to be a year when we develop a new middle infield, center fielder and right fielder, and solidify third base. It's not supposed to be a year when we fixate on every game like it's Game 7 of the World Series.

 

One of the reasons we have had revolving doors at both middle infield positions is the constant need to win every game, and the fixation on failure that comes along with it. We want these guys to develop in a winning atmosphere. But they also need the room to fail. Players develop by learning to avoid making the same mistakes multiple times--by making adjustments. If you fixate on the mistakes, you never give them the chance to adjust.

[clutterheart]

You guys can have those opinions which is fine, just mark my words, dozier will never be a legit starter in the majors, been saying it for the past year plus. He could be a mediocre util guy for a year or two but that is the best case scenario.

 

I hope I am proven wrong. But I doubt it. Now that he isn't a SS he actually needs to contribute with the bat.

 

Based on his career stats this is hardly a groundbreaking opinion. But there is nobody else so might as well stick with a guy who has shown OK plate disciple in the minors. The FO gave Gardy 4 utility infielders. He had to choose one and it might as well be Dozier. Carroll probably can't play everyday and the other two are not great, so the team is stuck with Dozier.

 

Don't place your blame on Gardy. It goes right on Terry Ryan's head. Ryan didn't even bring in anyone at AAA to play 2B who had an outside chance at being good.

[glunn]

Lots of good posts in this thread.

 

It seems to me that no one is disputing the fact that there is no prospect knocking on the door, so why not give Dozier a chance. Even if Dave is correct that Dozier will be mediocre at best, why not give him a chance to show what he can do. As Cmathewson has suggested, Dozier may be a late bloomer. And looking at the stats posted above as to Dozier and Plouffe, it seems to me that patience might pay off. Also, as many has observed, he has been hustling his tail off to provide good defense. Finally, Dave himself said that he is hoping that he is wrong about Dozier, and there has to be a first time for everything.

[jokin]

Based on his career stats this is hardly a groundbreaking opinion. But there is nobody else so might as well stick with a guy who has shown OK plate disciple in the minors. The FO gave Gardy 4 utility infielders. He had to choose one and it might as well be Dozier. Carroll probably can't play everyday and the other two are not great, so the team is stuck with Dozier.

 

Don't place your blame on Gardy. It goes right on Terry Ryan's head. Ryan didn't even bring in anyone at AAA to play 2B who had an outside chance at being good.

 

Hard to believe Brian Dinkelman and Doug Bernier don't get you all tingly.

 

This is what it is and we're going to have to lump it until Santana and Rosario are ready. Hello 2015.

[spideyo]

I must admit, it would be more fun to drunkenly holler out "DINKLEMAN" than yelling for dozier. But that's just my opinion

[cmathewson]

Lots of good posts in this thread.

 

It seems to me that no one is disputing the fact that there is no prospect knocking on the door, so why not give Dozier a chance. Even if Dave is correct that Dozier will be mediocre at best, why not give him a chance to show what he can do. As Cmathewson has suggested, Dozier may be a late bloomer. And looking at the stats posted above as to Dozier and Plouffe, it seems to me that patience might pay off. Also, as many has observed, he has been hustling his tail off to provide good defense. Finally, Dave himself said that he is hoping that he is wrong about Dozier, and there has to be a first time for everything.

 

Yes. Dave claims he has been calling for the Twins to dump Dozier since before he even got his shot at short last year. That would be the year after he won the organization's Minor League Player of the Year award. Admittedly, that says as much about the lack of quality prospects in the org. in 2011. But it also says Dozier is a decent prospect who could become a solid major leaguer if given the chance. The closest viable alternative (Rosario) is in Fort Myers. That's at least two years away. At that time, I might be calling for the end of the Dozier era. Barring an acquisition, it makes little sense to call for it before 2015.

[kab21]

Some people thought that.... Most people didn't, also it doesn't take a baseball expert to see the difference between Parmelees offensive skill set and doziers

 

It doesn't take a baseball expert to see the difference between Parmelee's defensive skill set and Dozier's.

[DaveW]

Listen I am not trying to create an issue, just stating what I believe to be true, I hope I am wrong but I have had this gut feeling about Dozier for the past year and a half, I had the same one with Kevin Slowey and people told me I was crazy as well.

 

I hope I am wrong and Dozier sticks at 2B for at least a couple years.

 

Also, why on earth was he not PH for?

[diehardtwinsfan]

Two words: Andi Dinkleman

[jokin]

Listen I am not trying to create an issue,

 

Ah yes, the morning after the night before...

[cmathewson]

Also, why on earth was he not PH for?

 

The Twins had one bat on the bench who is better than Dozier and Florimon hitting after Dozier, with a two-run deficit. Perhaps Gardy thought his best chance to tie the game or take the lead was with Dozier getting on base and Ramirez knocking him in. Pinch hitting for Dozier in that situation equates to hoping Ramirez hits a homer. Seems like longer odds than taking your chances with Dozier and pinch hitting for Florimon.

[kab21]

Listen I am not trying to create an issue, just stating what I believe to be true, I hope I am wrong but I have had this gut feeling about Dozier for the past year and a half, I had the same one with Kevin Slowey and people told me I was crazy as well.

 

I hope I am wrong and Dozier sticks at 2B for at least a couple years.

 

Also, why on earth was he not PH for?

 

The first issue I have is that there is no other alternative on the roster to Dozier. We know Carroll isn't very good. Everyone should be less certain about Dozier.

 

He wasn't PH for because the Twins have Escobar, Carroll and Wilkin on the bench. I'm sure Wilkin would have been in there against a lefty but I don't think Wilkin is very good either.

[Mike Sixel]

I would spend at least half of this year giving Dozier every opportunity to succeed or not. Gotta find out if he is at least a stop gap to Rosario (assuming he stays at 2B).

[DaveW]

The Twins had one bat on the bench who is better than Dozier and Florimon hitting after Dozier, with a two-run deficit. Perhaps Gardy thought his best chance to tie the game or take the lead was with Dozier getting on base and Ramirez knocking him in. Pinch hitting for Dozier in that situation equates to hoping Ramirez hits a homer. Seems like longer odds than taking your chances with Dozier and pinch hitting for Florimon.

 

Florimon has been at least hitting decently (I know I know super super super small sample size) I think Ramirez is nothing special as well....which is why I would have prefered to give a guy like Thome the 25th spot. There is no need for this team to carry 5 OF's, esp when three of them need to be playing near every day anyways.

[DaveW]

The first issue I have is that there is no other alternative on the roster to Dozier. We know Carroll isn't very good. Everyone should be less certain about Dozier.

 

He wasn't PH for because the Twins have Escobar, Carroll and Wilkin on the bench. I'm sure Wilkin would have been in there against a lefty but I don't think Wilkin is very good either.

 

I don't get the Caroll hate, the dude had the 3rd or 4th highest OBP on the team last year, and while he won't knock the ball out of the park you know he will at least get on base and give you some chances to knock him in. Additionally he is very good defensively at 2B and can move over to SS or 3rd if need. No, he isn't the future, but at this point as long as the Twins are "in it" they need to be rolling with their best possible lineup. Once they fall 10 games out or whatever then let an inferior player like Dozier "prove" himself or not.

 

Also the Twins really screwed the pooch by not address MI yet again. IMO the best thing that could happen this year is Doizer either wows us all and proves to be a legit 2B or he fails so miserably the Twins have no choice but to address it in the off-season. If he goes hot/cold ala Alexi Casilla and so many others it could end up being disastrous for us moving forward.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Dozier is the only middle infielder with any pop in his bat so we may as well have him keep playing. I think Escobar needs to be playing every day, however.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I don't get the Caroll hate, the dude had the 3rd or 4th highest OBP on the team last year, and while he won't knock the ball out of the park you know he will at least get on base and give you some chances to knock him in. Additionally he is very good defensively at 2B and can move over to SS or 3rd if need. No, he isn't the future, but at this point as long as the Twins are "in it" they need to be rolling with their best possible lineup. Once they fall 10 games out or whatever then let an inferior player like Dozier "prove" himself or not.

 

Also the Twins really screwed the pooch by not address MI yet again. IMO the best thing that could happen this year is Doizer either wows us all and proves to be a legit 2B or he fails so miserably the Twins have no choice but to address it in the off-season. If he goes hot/cold ala Alexi Casilla and so many others it could end up being disastrous for us moving forward.

 

Carroll had a 3.5 WAR last season. He doesn't deserve to be on the bench and is actually a pretty good infielder overall. He's not flashy, but can be an extremely reliable contributor. His defense is very good and he can usually muster a somewhat decent OPS.

[cmathewson]

Carroll had a 3.5 WAR last season. He doesn't deserve to be on the bench and is actually a pretty good infielder overall. He's not flashy, but can be an extremely reliable contributor. His defense is very good and he can usually muster a somewhat decent OPS.

 

He's 39 years old. He wears out easy. Guys his age can go from a 3.5 WAR to a -3.5 WAR in one year if you're not careful. Plus, as the Chief said, we're not playing for this year. So why invest a lot of playing time in a guy who will be retired when the team next contends? At this point, he's basically a second bench coach.

[Alex]

He's 39 years old. He wears out easy. Guys his age can go from a 3.5 WAR to a -3.5 WAR in one year if you're not careful. Plus, as the Chief said, we're not playing for this year. So why invest a lot of playing time in a guy who will be retired when the team next contends? At this point, he's basically a second bench coach.

 

He does? It's very disappointing to me that the team isn't in a situation to give him more playing time. He's the best overall middle infielder on the team, but with the team pretty much needing to see Dozier, Florimon, Escobar, there's just not a place for him to get that regular time.

[jokin]

He does? It's very disappointing to me that the team isn't in a situation to give him more playing time. He's the best overall middle infielder on the team, but with the team pretty much needing to see Dozier, Florimon, Escobar, there's just not a place for him to get that regular time.

 

Yes. He's a proven veteran, making well-deserved decent veteran money. Right now in this season of FO puntage, he's become just a very costly insurance policy. I stand by my opinion to rotate him regularly at 3B, 2B and SS a few times a week to earn his $3.5M and provide some veteran on-field stability.

[cmathewson]

He does? It's very disappointing to me that the team isn't in a situation to give him more playing time. He's the best overall middle infielder on the team, .

 

I highly doubt that. His range is meh. He's very sure handed and gets on base. Both good things. But he doesn't get to many balls and he has the weakest arm of the four middle infielders on the team. So he is kind of a player coach. Not a bad thing considering the youth of the other guys.

[jokin]

 

Also the Twins really screwed the pooch by not address MI yet again. IMO the best thing that could happen this year is Doizer either wows us all and proves to be a legit 2B or he fails so miserably the Twins have no choice but to address it in the off-season. If he goes hot/cold ala Alexi Casilla and so many others it could end up being disastrous for us moving forward.

 

One might even say they "either didn't care or didn't try very hard to do better."

[cmathewson]

One might even say they "either didn't care or didn't try very hard to do better."

 

They care. They just don't agree with Dave. Dozier was the Minor League Player of the year two years ago for a reason: The organization thinks very highly of him. Of course he could go the way of Casilla "and so many others". It's entirely possible. It's just not all that likely.

 

I'm OK with questioning stuff and calling out mistakes that were made, but to accuse the organization of not caring or not trying all that hard is cynical in the extreme.

[Shane Wahl]

I would say that the Twins need to give 2013 to Dozier. By 2014, Santana and Beresford could be given chances to succeed at SS or 2B depending on Dozier's 2013 season.

[jokin]

They care. They just don't agree with Dave. Dozier was the Minor League Player of the year two years ago for a reason: The organization thinks very highly of him. Of course he could go the way of Casilla "and so many others". It's entirely possible. It's just not all that likely.

 

I'm OK with questioning stuff and calling out mistakes that were made, but to accuse the organization of not caring or not trying all that hard is cynical in the extreme.

 

The organization maybe has thought highly of Dozier (with little supporting evidence, who voted for that Minor League POY, anyway?). Virtually noone else with professional evaluative skills has done so, and there has been little supporting evidence save one above-average year in the minors from his career thus far. If the organization simply has a blind spot about the extreme need for strengthening the MI and Catcher positions, that still falls under the definition of "not caring enough" to fully consider the years of futility in the MI and is hardly cynical on my part ( I certainly won't speak for Dave on this).

[Shane Wahl]

There is an awful lot of instant gratification culture up in here, esp. with regard to Dozier and Hicks. Seven games into a new season with a position change.

 

Chill out.