Article: What in the Hell is a Pedro Florimon?

[drjim]

The Rangers were gobsmacked in 2012, during and after the close of the season with the defections and lack of replaceable asset additions., definitely ripe for making a significant move.

 

Actually, for a rebuilding team any rational offer trading at positions of depth and unloading PR splash-worthy veterans who won't necessarily be part of the next era of a returned competitiveness was a perfect recipe for working out a franchise-direction changing deal that might have presented a Win-Win scenario for both clubs.

 

Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

[jokin]

Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?

 

Boaggerts, Iglesias (his glove will make you forget Florimon), Marrero (AZ St. 1st round pick, starts in Hi-A, will likely jump to AA or even AAA w/ a good season and a Boaggerts call-up, would have to have been a PTBNL) and they just got Brock Holt besides, who has played plenty of SS (blocked by Pedroia @ 2B). Boaggerts may have been too young for the spotlight in Boston, but he would have been more than ready on the Twins, any of these others are more than ready, today, to offer significant upside in 2013 or 2014 over what the Twins plan to roster this year and next.

[jokin]

Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

 

So you say. I said a combo of veterans and prospects.

[lee_the_twins_fan]

According to Bleacher Report, the best remaining free agent shortstops are Alex Gonzalez, Ronny Cedeno and Jason Bartlett. Gonzalez sounds risky, but with a high upside. Are any of these guys worth pursuing?

 

Of the three, I'd rather have Bartlett back. Maybe back in the AL he can find his stroke again.

 

The other two are not worth pursuing.

 

I doubt the Twins will go after Bartlett or anyone, though.

[Guest USAFChief]

People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

 

I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."

If it's your contention that filling SS is too hard for the current Twins' GM, then can I assume you're also calling for his replacement? Or is "it's too hard" an acceptable excuse in your book?

[Dance with Disco Dan]

Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

 

That was my conclusion too. The Twins would have to open up the top end of its prospect list for a "Pick any four" type deal to get the Rangers off the idea of flipping Andrus or Profar for young, superstar-level talent like Price or Stanton. There is no individual or combination of Twins major-leaguers that would interest the Rangers in a trade for one of their stud SS. In my estimation, as great as it would be to have a top flight SS, it wouldn't be worth gutting the minor league pipeline. We have too many holes. That is the type of move a franchise makes when it is ready to make a run at the Series.

[Dance with Disco Dan]

So you say. I said a combo of veterans and prospects.

 

What combo plate would you offer the Rangers? I can imagine that only Willingham and maybe Perkins would interest them in such a deal. And I think that pair would only save us one top prospect. What do you think might do the trick?

[Jim H]

"Florimon reminds me of Greg Gagne at that age, who could barely get the bat on the ball, but he could sure get his glove on it. And when he got leather on it, he made outs. That is the promise of Florimon. I'm not saying he will be the next Greg Gagne. But he has a chance to fill the position until Santana or Polanco are ready to take over. " Quote from cmathewson

 

Florimon doesn't really remind me of Gagne. Gagne was younger and actually showed promise of a good bat while making a lot of errors and not showing the range he later exhibited. There was even talk of moving Gagne to 3B to take advantage of his bat and because some thought he really wasn't a shortstop. Gagne's bat never really developed, although he had his moments and often started the season well but seemed to wear down.

 

Florimon is quite a bit older than Gagne was as a rookie. Florimon actually may have better tools than Gagne although I doubt if I am a good one to judge that. It just seems that he should be more consistent defensively than he is, since he is already in his mid twenties. I would be happy if settles in as a superior defensive shortstop, and can get over the Mendoza line as a hitter. I am not sure that will happen, however.

[The Wise One]

Boaggerts, Iglesias (his glove will make you forget Florimon), Marrero (AZ St. 1st round pick, starts in Hi-A, will likely jump to AA or even AAA w/ a good season and a Boaggerts call-up, would have to have been a PTBNL) and they just got Brock Holt besides, who has played plenty of SS (blocked by Pedroia @ 2B). Boaggerts may have been too young for the spotlight in Boston, but he would have been more than ready on the Twins, any of these others are more than ready, today, to offer significant upside in 2013 or 2014 over what the Twins plan to roster this year and next.

 

Boston signed Drew to a one year deal for a reason, Bogaerts should be ready in 2014. I love how people on this board fantasise about trades that have so little likelyhood of happening. To get a Bogaerts one would have to be giving up a couple top 10 prospects. The belief that any Twins veteran left without a no trade clause or closes games will fetch much this off season is another fantasy. Also like the wish for a player who was in high A ball as a solution for shortstop while complaining of this year's players. The black hole of the Twins will continue.

[drjim]

If it's your contention that filling SS is too hard for the current Twins' GM, then can I assume you're also calling for his replacement? Or is "it's too hard" an acceptable excuse in your book?

 

I'm not making excuses, I'm stating facts. It has difficult to find good SSs, and I was more talking in the realm of what Brock suggested. I will not defend their inability to develop a SS.

 

2004 - SS in first round (Plouffe)

2005 - two SSs in the second round (Kelly, Thompson), SS free agent (Castro)

2008 - SS free agent (Everett)

2009 - two high priced SSs in international market (Polanco, Sano)

2010 - SS in trade (Hardy), SS in second round (Goodrum), high priced international market (Pimentel)

2011 - SS in first round (Michael)

2012 - SS on waivers (Florimon), SS in trade (Escobar), SS free agent (Carroll)

 

This is the best I could think of resources (high draft pick, trade, international above $750k, free agents, waivers) off the top of my head used in an attempt to acquire SSs in the past 9 years and that doesn't include lower round picks (Dozier) or lower priced international free agents (Santana, Beresford). They have put resources in, I'm not sure why they haven't been able to develop a SS out of this mess (outside of the one year of Hardy).

 

Trading the only two respectable SSs the team has had since Guzman for minimal return is probably not another feather in the cap of Bill Smith.

[drjim]

Boston signed Drew to a one year deal for a reason, Bogaerts should be ready in 2014. I love how people on this board fantasise about trades that have so little likelyhood of happening. To get a Bogaerts one would have to be giving up a couple top 10 prospects. The belief that any Twins veteran left without a no trade clause or closes games will fetch much this off season is another fantasy. Also like the wish for a player who was in high A ball as a solution for shortstop while complaining of this year's players. The black hole of the Twins will continue.

 

I would trade Perkins in a heartbeat if it filled SS for several years. I don't think he has that kind of value.

[snepp]

I would trade Perkins in a heartbeat if it filled SS for several years. I don't think he has that kind of value.

 

We just need to find another front office that, for reasons that cannot possibly be comprehended, treats the position like a complete after-thought.

[edavis0308]

Good thing we are contending and can't trade veterans for useful prospects to build for the future.

[Riverbrian]

Reportedly Justin Upton couldn't pry Simmons from Atlanta. It took Bauer to acquire Didi.

 

The Rangers have two young SS's and would not part with either to acquire Justin Upton.

 

I have no idea what kind of trade it would take to bring in a SS but there appears to be some shortstop hoarding going on.

 

I suspect the price is gonna be Higher than Cheech and Chong circa 1978.

[drjim]

Good thing we are contending and can't trade veterans for useful prospects to build for the future.

 

I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

[Brock Beauchamp]

2004 - SS in first round (Plouffe)

2005 - two SSs in the second round (Kelly, Thompson), SS free agent (Castro)

2008 - SS free agent (Everett)

2009 - two high priced SSs in international market (Polanco, Sano)

2010 - SS in trade (Hardy), SS in second round (Goodrum), high priced international market (Pimentel)

2011 - SS in first round (Michael)

2012 - SS on waivers (Florimon), SS in trade (Escobar), SS free agent (Carroll)

 

You're playing pretty fast and loose with the term "shortstop". Carroll has played the majority of his games at short once in his career. There isn't a scout on planet earth who projected Sano to stay at short. Michael has been called a second bagger by almost everyone who has watched him play. Likewise, Plouffe couldn't hack it and most scouts were unsurprised by it.

 

Everett is the type of shortstop that makes fans cringe and the front office's collective loins moisten. Unsurprisingly, he tanked. Juan Castro was so bad that we still laugh at his play over half a decade later.

 

In the "I don't suck" department, what's that leave? Hardy and Polanco? Great. So we have a guy in rookie ball and a guy the team traded away for pocket lint and a cardboard cutout of Rick Vaughn.

[edavis0308]

Personally I would have tried to buy low on Yunel Escobar but since he's a big meanie then that would have never happened.

 

It's fairly obvious we don't have the fire power to pull Off a trade for a top shelf SS but... If you're going to be all Smug about things..I'm sure we can trade Morneau or Willingham for a so so guy that has a hell of a lot more upside than Pedro freaking Florimon. I wouldn't advocate such a move Though. Might hurt our chances to win this year.

[ThePuck]

You're playing pretty fast and loose with the term "shortstop".

 

There's always a bunch of shortstops drafted. Like 120 or so just last year...as opposed to maybe 50 2Bs. Shortstops often get converted...they may have played SS at whatever school they played before, but they get moved in the minors. They're targeted because of their athleticism. So for anyone to say we were really pushing to fill our shortstop need cause we drafted some and signed some cheap FA shortstops nobody wanted (Everett, Castro) is just grasping for straws. And if they actually believe hat, then they need to point out the pure incompetence of the people signing/drafting them. Either way, it doesn't look good...

 

It's like the whole thing about how we really addressed pitching cause we drafted so many pitchers...no, we didn't...we didn't draft an unusual amount of pitchers.

[TheLeviathan]

I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

 

I'm sorry drjim, but the more you go here the more you are definitionally making excuses.

 

Whether through the draft, FA, trades, or whatever other means....the team has failed to get a shortstop of any competency for a decade and appear content to have the position waste away. It IS hurting the team and needs to be fixed.

[Dance with Disco Dan]

I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

 

In my opinion, if we are in for a penny with Span and Revere, we should be in for a pound and move Willingham, too. Signed for two more years at $7 million/per means that he has, by far, the most market value on the MLB roster. I know that Ryan has tickets to sell in 2013 and someone has to produce some runs. That said, Willingham's production will entertain but will not carry the Twins into the range of contention. This is the time to plug our collective noses and move all marketable assets. Willingham is coming off a career year and will not retain the value he has now as we move through next two years.

 

Remember the fantastic poo poo platter that one-year of Santana brought back? GMs just wont give back much for one year of control for anyone. And given the contracts Shane Victorino and Cody "Who's that?" Ross got this off season, I have to believe that Willingham is considered a deep-discount option worthy of prospects from teams interested in contending. Hello, Yankees? I believe you are short about 90 home runs.

[Nick Nelson]

I'm sorry drjim, but the more you go here the more you are definitionally making excuses.

 

Whether through the draft, FA, trades, or whatever other means....the team has failed to get a shortstop of any competency for a decade and appear content to have the position waste away. It IS hurting the team and needs to be fixed.

I don't think you two necessarily disagree. He already said that their inability to develop/acquire shortstops has been inexplicable, I think he's just pointing out that this offseason wasn't necessarily the most opportune time to address the situation. And he may be right. Pitching needed to be their highest priority, and the area they concentrated their assets. Short of signing Stephen Drew, they weren't going to be adding a quality shortstop without trading too much away.

 

That said, I don't understand why they didn't at least bring in a Bartlett type or two to give them some potential options. I'd like to get behind what they see in Florimon, but to me he just looks like another ill-equipped minor-league caliber player that they're putting their faith into, following in the footsteps of Nishioka, Casilla, Dozier and more.

[jokin]

Boston signed Drew to a one year deal for a reason, Bogaerts should be ready in 2014. I love how people on this board fantasise about trades that have so little likelyhood of happening. To get a Bogaerts one would have to be giving up a couple top 10 prospects. The belief that any Twins veteran left without a no trade clause or closes games will fetch much this off season is another fantasy. Also like the wish for a player who was in high A ball as a solution for shortstop while complaining of this year's players. The black hole of the Twins will continue.

 

Comparing Boston to the Twins in terms of Drew is a fool's errand. Boston wants, and needs in the AL East, an immediate infusion of relevancy.

 

Or a blockbuster trade with Boston drooling all over a Mauer-related deal involved in the mix. Or get one of the other 3 ideas I suggested for much less that you conveniently ignored. Much like the acquisition of Meyer and Mays, the Twins have already half-way acknowledged that 2015 is their rebuilding goal season. Holt is already major league-ready and blocked, the other 2 I mentioned project to 2014 or 2015. Who is in denial here, really?

[jokin]

I don't think you two necessarily disagree. He already said that their inability to develop/acquire shortstops has been inexplicable, I think he's just pointing out that this offseason wasn't necessarily the most opportune time to address the situation. And he may be right. Pitching needed to be their highest priority, and the area they concentrated their assets. Short of signing Stephen Drew, they weren't going to be adding a quality shortstop without trading too much away.

 

That said, I don't understand why they didn't at least bring in a Bartlett type or two to give them some potential options. I'd like to get behind what they see in Florimon, but to me he just looks like another ill-equipped minor-league caliber player that they're putting their faith into, following in the footsteps of Nishioka, Casilla, Dozier and more.

 

In other words, the Twins continuing ad nauseum in their self-imposed comfort zone of Middle Infield Mediocrity.

[RodneyKline]

I honestly do not understand what Terry Ryan is thinking. I want to support him and his vision but he is doing nothing to help us believe. He has a project at 2B, SS and 3B in the infield and in two of the three outfield positions. He is saying he wants to be competitive but his actions say that he is rebuilding when he has two superstars in their prime.

 

Everything I have been hearing is that Mauer and Morneau are ready to have great years this year and it will be wasted because he missed the opportunity to surround them with a team that can compete. He has a brand new stadium with two MVPs in their prime and he supports them with a third 90+ loss supporting cast! Any other GM that has two MVPs in their prime would be making sure that they surround them with a World Series caliber team but he chooses to cut payroll.

 

If he were to go get a quality short stop or second baseman and an ace to anchor the rotation with the $30 million he is down in payroll vs. the first year at Target field and we are competitive with any team in baseball when Mauer and Morneau have a huge year that I bet they have. What a waste! He didn't even try to land Grienke or any of the top starters and I didn't hear any rumors of him talking to any middle infielders. He has improved the farm system but by the time those players can help, then Mauer will be declining and Morneau will be gone. There is no guarantee that any of these farm hands will be the next Mauer or Morneau or the next ace pitcher and even if they are, he will let them go to another team once the get to their prime and/or not surround them with the talent needed to win.

 

This is just not a smart financial plan in my opinion. He is going to save $30 million or more in payroll and lose three times that in lost revenue at. It will be 30 years or more before they have another new stadium also. He is wasting a huge opportunity to take the Twins to the next level. Having a new stadium and two MVPs is not something that comes around very often and he is blowing it. TR could be a great GM if he could somehow learn to not be such a cheapskate. They will lose so much money this year with a third season in a row where we are the worst team in the AL and it didn't have to be this way. He just needed to think big but I don't think he is capable of thinking big or understanding that you get what you pay for and dumpster diving may net you a couple good surprises but we need about six miracles (no pun intended) to happen to not be in last place again.

[drjim]

I don't think you two necessarily disagree. He already said that their inability to develop/acquire shortstops has been inexplicable, I think he's just pointing out that this offseason wasn't necessarily the most opportune time to address the situation. And he may be right. Pitching needed to be their highest priority, and the area they concentrated their assets. Short of signing Stephen Drew, they weren't going to be adding a quality shortstop without trading too much away.

 

That said, I don't understand why they didn't at least bring in a Bartlett type or two to give them some potential options. I'd like to get behind what they see in Florimon, but to me he just looks like another ill-equipped minor-league caliber player that they're putting their faith into, following in the footsteps of Nishioka, Casilla, Dozier and more.

 

This is a pretty good summary of my position on SS. Im not defending their record or making excuses but trying to understand what they have done and why it has failed. Just saying they have done poorly or saying they have to get someone better isn't that interesting to me.

 

I'm also not convinced adding slop to the current slop is all that helpful - they already have Carroll for that role. Might as well see what people have. Not expecting much from Florimon but Dozier and/or Escobar could surprise.

[Brock Beauchamp]

This is a pretty good summary of my position on SS. Im not defending their record or making excuses but trying to understand what they have done and why it has failed. Just saying they have done poorly or saying they have to get someone better isn't that interesting to me.

 

I'm also not convinced adding slop to the current slop is all that helpful - they already have Carroll for that role. Might as well see what people have. Not expecting much from Florimon but Dozier and/or Escobar could surprise.

 

To be fair to Ryan, Smith traded the last two legitimate shortstops the team had on the roster (yeah, he acquired one of them but then turned around and gave him away for virtually nothing).

 

Still, I think this comes down to how this organization is run and what they look for in middle infielders. There's a reason why they continually fail to produce middle infielders who can play above a replacement level. I don't know what that reason is but after 15 years of scuffling at two key positions on the field, it's obvious that they're doing something wrong.

 

What's most damning is that they refuse to acknowledge this shortcoming and compound the issue by bringing in the likes of Juan Castro, Adam Everett, and Pedro Florimon and expect something good to happen.

[drjim]

In my opinion, if we are in for a penny with Span and Revere, we should be in for a pound and move Willingham, too. Signed for two more years at $7 million/per means that he has, by far, the most market value on the MLB roster. I know that Ryan has tickets to sell in 2013 and someone has to produce some runs. That said, Willingham's production will entertain but will not carry the Twins into the range of contention. This is the time to plug our collective noses and move all marketable assets. Willingham is coming off a career year and will not retain the value he has now as we move through next two years.

 

Remember the fantastic poo poo platter that one-year of Santana brought back? GMs just wont give back much for one year of control for anyone. And given the contracts Shane Victorino and Cody "Who's that?" Ross got this off season, I have to believe that Willingham is considered a deep-discount option worthy of prospects from teams interested in contending. Hello, Yankees? I believe you are short about 90 home runs.

 

I have no problem trading Willingham but I question his value in the offseason. Probably similar or even less than Span. Teams will be hesitant to acquire him for the same reason we would want to trade him. If he stays healthy and produces close to last year he would probably have more value than he does now. It is reasonable to wait.

[Dance with Disco Dan]

I have no problem trading Willingham but I question his value in the offseason. Probably similar or even less than Span. Teams will be hesitant to acquire him for the same reason we would want to trade him. If he stays healthy and produces close to last year he would probably have more value than he does now. It is reasonable to wait.

 

I agree that Willingham's trade value at this point in the off-season is very uncertain. I think they needed to move him before all the free-agent signings started. It is probably best to keep him at this point. I just worry that our oppotunity to maximize his value in trade has passed. Every game he plays for the Twins shortens the below-market control that comprises a good deal of his value. For that reason, I hope that the Twins entertain the idea of trading him at the trade deadline. Unfortunately, Willingham is an injury risk and is almost certain to regress, so we don't know how he will be viewed mid-summer. Hopefully, he comes out banging homers and some contender is looking for outfield power. We'll see.

[Boom Boom]

To be fair to Ryan, Smith traded the last two legitimate shortstops the team had on the roster (yeah, he acquired one of them but then turned around and gave him away for virtually nothing).

 

Still, I think this comes down to how this organization is run and what they look for in middle infielders. There's a reason why they continually fail to produce middle infielders who can play above a replacement level. I don't know what that reason is but after 15 years of scuffling at two key positions on the field, it's obvious that they're doing something wrong.

 

What's most damning is that they refuse to acknowledge this shortcoming and compound the issue by bringing in the likes of Juan Castro, Adam Everett, and Pedro Florimon and expect something good to happen.

 

All those guys can really pick it. If everybody else does their job, they don't need to hit.

[ashbury]

I have no problem trading Willingham but I question his value in the offseason.

 

I may be wrong, but the fact he ended the season hurt leads me to think his offseason value became low and it won't rebound until he gets a month under his belt proving there are no recurring issues.

 

And anyway his value to the Twins may be more as a player who helps bridge to the next generation in 2015 by making 2013-14 tolerable than in a medium quality prospect at best that he might bring in trade.