Article: Drew Butera and Defensive Prowess

[snepp]

How about a couple extra walks? How about a little bit of power in the hits that do come? How about the opportunity cost of flushing a roster spot down the toilet that could be used on a potentially useful player? The complete lack of versatility given his inability to a viable pinch hitter, or even be used as a pinch runner?

 

 

But you've got the answer, 6 hits is all there is to it, nothing more.

[edavis0308]

His ability to come out of the bullpen is invaluable.

[raindog]

You will all feel dumb when Butera wins MVP this year.

[Expression451]

Breaking it down in a way to make Butera look servicable is impressive writing... believing it however is something that one should never do! Every game he plays the Twins get one less inning against the opponents as he is guaranteed to be 0-3 without a walk most games. Throwing an entire inning away every single game seems counter productive. We can talk about his framing pitches, but he certainly didn't make this pitching staff better as it's been one of the worst in baseball the last two years. The throwing out runners aspect is also vastly overrated when teams don't bother to run because they know the guy behind them is going to drive them in with a double or a homer because our pitching staff was so bad. Chris Hermann or even Brandon Inge are better options if we must carry 3 people on the active 25 man roster with the capability to play catcher. Butera is a back up AA catcher, or a BP catcher. Nothing more. 700K wasted on a team that has slashed 30 million from it's payroll. Solid warning signs that Terry Ryan and the Pohlads may not have a good grasp on the reality of baseball.

[ashbury]

You will all feel dumb when Butera wins MVP this year.

 

Agreed; I already feel dumber just for having read this.

[ashbury]

His ability to come out of the bullpen is invaluable.

 

His ability to stay within the bullpen should be explored, as well.

[Shane Wahl]

How about a couple extra walks? How about a little bit of power in the hits that do come? How about the opportunity cost of flushing a roster spot down the toilet that could be used on a potentially useful player? The complete lack of versatility given his inability to a viable pinch hitter, or even be used as a pinch runner?

 

 

But you've got the answer, 6 hits is all there is to it, nothing more.

 

Exactly!

 

I fully don't understand those who scoff at improving the team, even in small ways regarding the last spot on the roster. No one could dream of using Butera for anything other than is defense as a catcher, which is overblown in the first place. Herrmann will be a viable left handed pinch hitter (batter really, as he can draw a good amount of walks) and he can be a 5th OF (and, right now, the Twins might kinda need that).

 

In Shane's world, both Herrmann and Colabello saw AAA time last year and would be on the 25-man roster this year to start the season (given the Span and Revere trades).

[TheLeviathan]

I feel obligated to state that the rank disgust with Butera displayed on this board is ridiculously overblown. As long as our 3rd catcher is getting <150 PA's it doesn't matter what his offensive abilities are. The difference between Butera and a catcher that hit .250 was six hits last season. 6 hits gentlemen. 6 hits.

 

Now go ahead and tell me how wrong I am. I don't think I'll be back to argue with you. I just felt it was necessary to interject a little realism into this discussion.

 

We should totally take that approach with our entire bench then! This is so brilliant! Why worry about filling out your roster with useful players when you can stuff them full of cheap garbage! I rest easily knowing now that Butera's utter inability to be a baseball player is in no way hurting our baseball team. Thank you sir.

[Thrylos]

In Shane's world, both Herrmann and Colabello saw AAA time last year and would be on the 25-man roster this year to start the season (given the Span and Revere trades).

 

I like that (and Herrmann saw MLB time too ). But what this would mean that the Twins cannot carry 3-4 MIFs, Butera, and the guy-who-would-push-Plouffe to be named later. The manager wants that and he is the root cause of the problem...

[snepp]

We should totally take that approach with our entire bench then! This is so brilliant! Why worry about filling out your roster with useful players when you can stuff them full of cheap garbage! I rest easily knowing now that Butera's utter inability to be a baseball player is in no way hurting our baseball team. Thank you sir.

 

Would this be an opportune time to use the, "if everyone else does their job *insert player* doesn't have to," bit from BYTO?

[TheLeviathan]

Would this be an opportune time to use the, "if everyone else does their job *insert player* doesn't have to," bit from BYTO?

 

Yes indeed it is sir. Though from the looks of this team it might be more like "If Mauer never gets hurt, plays catcher every day, and there is never a use for a good pinch hitter.....Butera doesn't have to be good" I'm sure all three of those scenarios will never happen. Rest easy.

[Willihammer]

I know its SSS-flawed, but, Liriano's turnaround midseason last year coincided perfectly with taking on Butera as personal catcher. It started on May 30 and went through his trade in late July. Only 1 lousy start in the mix. He also had his worst games when Doumit caught him:

 

2012:

[TABLE=class: sortable stats_table]

[TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: left]Split[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]G[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]IP[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]ER[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, align: center]ERA[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]PA[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]AB[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]R[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]H[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]2B[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]3B[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]HR[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SB[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]CS[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]BB[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SO[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals sorttable_sorted sort_col, align: center]SO/BB ▾[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]BA[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]OBP[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]SLG[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]OPS[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]TB[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]GDP[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]HBP[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SH[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SF[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]IBB[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]ROE[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]BAbip[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]tOPS+[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, align: center]sOPS+[/TH]

[TD=align: left]Tyler Flowers[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 14.2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]9[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 5.52[/TD]

[TD=align: right]64[/TD]

[TD=align: right]55[/TD]

[TD=align: right]9[/TD]

[TD=align: right]14[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5[/TD]

[TD=align: right]15[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.00[/TD]

[TD=align: right].255[/TD]

[TD=align: right].323[/TD]

[TD=align: right].382[/TD]

[TD=align: right].704[/TD]

[TD=align: right]21[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right].325[/TD]

[TD=align: right]90[/TD]

[TD=align: right]95[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Drew Butera[/TD]

[TD=align: right]13[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 68.2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]27[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 3.54[/TD]

[TD=align: right]283[/TD]

[TD=align: right]244[/TD]

[TD=align: right]27[/TD]

[TD=align: right]45[/TD]

[TD=align: right]11[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]32[/TD]

[TD=align: right]82[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.56[/TD]

[TD=align: right].184[/TD]

[TD=align: right].284[/TD]

[TD=align: right].303[/TD]

[TD=align: right].587[/TD]

[TD=align: right]74[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right].245[/TD]

[TD=align: right]59[/TD]

[TD=align: right]71[/TD]

[TD=align: left]A.J. Pierzynski[/TD]

[TD=align: right]9[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 42.0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]25[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 5.36[/TD]

[TD=align: right]189[/TD]

[TD=align: right]160[/TD]

[TD=align: right]19[/TD]

[TD=align: right]40[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]27[/TD]

[TD=align: right]43[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.59[/TD]

[TD=align: right].250[/TD]

[TD=align: right].365[/TD]

[TD=align: right].413[/TD]

[TD=align: right].778[/TD]

[TD=align: right]66[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right].306[/TD]

[TD=align: right]110[/TD]

[TD=align: right]116[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Joe Mauer[/TD]

[TD=align: right]7[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 23.2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]23[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 8.75[/TD]

[TD=align: right]114[/TD]

[TD=align: right]93[/TD]

[TD=align: right]25[/TD]

[TD=align: right]30[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]16[/TD]

[TD=align: right]20[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.25[/TD]

[TD=align: right].323[/TD]

[TD=align: right].412[/TD]

[TD=align: right].516[/TD]

[TD=align: right].928[/TD]

[TD=align: right]48[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right].356[/TD]

[TD=align: right]150[/TD]

[TD=align: right]132[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Ryan Doumit[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right] 7.2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]9[/TD]

[TD=align: right]10.57[/TD]

[TD=align: right]43[/TD]

[TD=align: right]35[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8[/TD]

[TD=align: right]14[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]7[/TD]

[TD=align: right]7[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.00[/TD]

[TD=align: right].400[/TD]

[TD=align: right].500[/TD]

[TD=align: right].686[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.186[/TD]

[TD=align: right]24[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right].462[/TD]

[TD=align: right]218[/TD]

[TD=align: right]199[/TD]

[/TABLE]

[Thrylos]

I know its SSS-flawed, but, Liriano's turnaround midseason last year coincided perfectly with taking on Butera as personal catcher.

 

please do me a favor and look at Liriano's numbers in 2011 when Butera caught him vs when Rivera caught him

[TheLeviathan]

please do me a favor and look at Liriano's numbers in 2011 when Butera caught him vs when Rivera caught him

 

Are we sure Butera wasn't catching blindfolded and trying to use telepathy? It's the only explanation for that blasphemy!

[Willihammer]

please do me a favor and look at Liriano's numbers in 2011 when Butera caught him vs when Rivera caught him

 

I looked at 2011. Its not good, but there's no data to compare to Doumit.

 

I don't know whether, on balance, Butera has a better catching track record compared to Doumit. That's a tough question to answer, let alone assign a run value to. And it may not be conclusive due to Butera being a part-timer anyway. But, we've seen guys request Butera for their personal catcher before. Why? Maybe he's a better pitch framer. Maybe guys tend to keep the ball down to him since he's the smallest of the 3 catchers. Maybe they prefer Butera's pitch selection. Maybe Liriano just had a great bullpen session with Butera before being reinstated as a starter, they had a rythm or something. It could be anything, or nothing. I just see a guy rattle off the kind of 2 month stretch Liriano had last year, which included a 15k/ 1 BB start, a 10k start, and a bunch of other quality starts, and where he threw to literally nobody else except Butera that entire time and never threw to him again either before it or after it that year, and it gets my attention.

[snepp]

How about 2010 when he was better with Mauer behind the plate than he was with Butera?

[The Wise One]

Floriman has to be happy that Butera is on the team. If not for Butera, Pedro's interpreter would have to lie about all of the writing about his offensive production on this website. If it was Floriman, it would be whover plays 2b, 3b, or currently failing in the OF. It is not the lack of spending that caused this situation, it was the years of poor drafts and worse trades.

[The Wise One]

Exactly!

 

I fully don't understand those who scoff at improving the team, even in small ways regarding the last spot on the roster. No one could dream of using Butera for anything other than is defense as a catcher, which is overblown in the first place. Herrmann will be a viable left handed pinch hitter (batter really, as he can draw a good amount of walks) and he can be a 5th OF (and, right now, the Twins might kinda need that).

 

In Shane's world, both Herrmann and Colabello saw AAA time last year and would be on the 25-man roster this year to start the season (given the Span and Revere trades).

 

Other than exist, what did Chris Herrmann do that was exactly noteworthy in a year and a half in AA? Being the best catching prospect in the Twins organization is being Miss Congeniality in a beauty pagent.

[Top Gun]

At least Butera can pitch, we need that.

[Thrylos]

Other than exist, what did Chris Herrmann do that was exactly noteworthy in a year and a half in AA? Being the best catching prospect in the Twins organization is being Miss Congeniality in a beauty pagent.

 

The best catching prospect in the Twins organization is probably Josmil Pinto at this point...

[Willihammer]

How about 2010 when he was better with Mauer behind the plate than he was with Butera?

 

I can only look at the two periods where it was clear that Butera was being requested as personal catcher, and in both cases, the results were very good. The other period being July 2010 - Sept 2011 where Butera was Pavano's PC. I do think there is a rhythm that some batterymates can get into. Liriano and Mauer were in rhythm for all of 2010. It certainly helped that Mauer was healthy enough to catch all those starts. When these periods of sustained pitching success happen, you don't fiddle with it, even when the guy's bat is as lousy as Butera's. And, for what its worth, nobody on the staff achieved a similar period of sustained success with Doumit catching him. then again, maybe guys like PJ Walters and Cole DeVries, just aren't capable of achieving a similar, prolonged period of success with any catcher. Its difficult to tell.

[Kobs]

I know its SSS-flawed, but, Liriano's turnaround midseason last year coincided perfectly with taking on Butera as personal catcher. It started on May 30 and went through his trade in late July. Only 1 lousy start in the mix. He also had his worst games when Doumit caught him:

 

Does Liriano play for the Twins?

[jorgenswest]

Listened to Gleeman and the Geek and they referenced Butera's catching ability with respect to framing pitches. They had him saving several runs a year. They may have a different source for data, but I did find data here.

 

To summarize for Twins catchers.

[TABLE=width: 552]

Name

Pitches

Runs

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

Per 150

Joe Mauer

33903

24

6

8

4

4

1

0.11

Drew Butera

11762

-3

1

-1

-3

NA

NA

-0.04

Ryan Doumit

27070

-69

-16

-8

-2

-10

-33

-0.38

[/TABLE]

 

The last column is mine to try to add some context. It is runs saved per 150 pitches which is about the number the Twins averaged per game last year. Edit - Presumably if a catcher is getting more strike calls and saving runs, he is not seeing as many pitches per game and the figure is lower. On the other hand, if a catcher is not getting strikes called the number of pitches will be greater.

 

Butera is above average at other aspects of defending the catcher position. I haven't seen evidence that framing pitches is something he does well. He appears to be league average but with his bat doesn't he need to be an elite defensive catcher?

[Willihammer]

Great, now we have a meaningful starting point for comparison that includes Butera and 2012 data.

 

If you use fangraphs' weight runs created, Butters is worth .04 runs per PA. Doumit is worth .13 runs per PA, and Mauer, .16. If you assume 4 PAs per game, that works out to .16 against Doumit's .52, and Mauer's .64. Subtract defensive runs cost due to pitch framing, and youre looking at something like

 

Butera: 0.12 net runs

Doumit: 0.16 net runs

Mauer: 0.75 net runs

 

Obviously that's before you add in any runs saved or lost by catching baserunners.

 

edit: math