Indians sign Swisher

[johnnydakota]

If Bauer was that good Arizona would not have traded him. Twins may finish last this year, White Sox may be close, but they are headed in the right direction. Amass arms that may function at a major league, and hope enough of the starters can pitch well.

 

I think it has more to do attitude then his skill , he would fit right in with A.J. me thinks or the lilly white Twins

[Top Gun]

You can only live on hope tell the season begins, then the truth sets in!

[ThePuck]

What? Its fine to dislike him for his antics, but to dislike him for the Nishioka play is absurd.

 

The Nishioka play was a common and clean play, it's not his fault we literally had one of the worst 10 players of all time playing SS for us that game.

 

Also, that play actually benefited us, it took out an absolutely terrible SS/2B and forced us to replace him with a less terrible SS/2B. And then Nishioka ended up saving us some decent cash anyways!

 

 

Swisher has a 4.1, 3.8 and 3.9 WAR's the past three years. He is a good player and actually seems like a good clubhouse guy as well. (think Remond but with talent!)

 

 

Also when is the Baker signing press conference? I'd like to know the date and time so I can view it live on the web!

 

Nishioka wasn't playing shortstop when that happened...Casilla was. Nishioka was playing 2B. Nishioka wasn't brought in to play SS, he was brought in to play 2B cause Gardy wanted Casilla at shortstop and they didn't like Nishi's arm for shortstop. This was said in December, but after enough questions were asked, they had to go through the circus of their ST battles to 'see where each one would play'. Shockingly, they decided on what they had said right when they got Nishi. I know, right? A sham ST battle in Twins territory. Who knew?

 

However, as things go on this team, they switched Nishi over to shortstop when he came back off the injury...in part because Gardy's answer for shortstop, Casilla, was a horrible shortstop, so he went back to where he plays best, 2B...and it left us with Nishi at SS. If they had left Casilla at shortstop and Nishi at 2B, we would have been horrible defensively at both spots. With Casilla at 2B and Nishi at shortstop, we were only horrible at one. Unfortunately, it was the more important one...

[nicksaviking]

The Swisher signing didn't make a lot of sense to me. He seems due for a decline, it's just his agent was angling for a big deal long before he hit the market. He was basically playing in his prime years in NY surrounded by all kinds of bats able to protect him and hitting in a very offensively friendly park, yet his numbers were about the same as they were his last two years in Oakland. I would have thought his numbers would have improved during that time, just as they did for Granderson.

 

Now he's heading into the declining stage of his carrer in a less offensively friendly park with less offensive help. If he falters, he likely falters big time. If that OBP starts dropping that's all she wrote, all of his offensive powers stem from being able to get on base.

 

That being said, his contract shouldn't be an albatross for the Indians, anymore than Mauer's for the Twins. The Indians aren't going to be paying too many guys in the coming years, they'll be relying on the cheap talent at the farm so they can afford to take a high priced gamble more so now, than say in six years when those guys will hit arbitration/free agency.

[PseudoSABR]

That being said, his contract shouldn't be an albatross for the Indians, anymore than Mauer's for the Twins. The Indians aren't going to be paying too many guys in the coming years, they'll be relying on the cheap talent at the farm so they can afford to take a high priced gamble more so now, than say in six years when those guys will hit arbitration/free agency.

I agree with your take save this passage. There's likely to be another, younger Swisher-like player when (if) the Indians are actually competitive. In two, three years, I'm sure the Indians will wish they had that 16 million a year to put elsewhere.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I don't see Texas overpaying right now... I do see them willing to shell out something nice at the deadline if they are in a race and are missing that power bat. Olt could make this whole conversation moot...as could a Cruz rebound, which is hardly unrealistic...

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yay, Swisher. Maybe that will offset the fact that the Indians have a bottom 10 farm system (as do the Tigers and White Sox). As much as I bitch about the Twins' free agent acquisitions (or lack thereof), I wouldn't trade places with either the White Sox or Indians and you'd have to make a convincing argument to trade places with Detroit, a team that is going to be good for another year or two and then will get real bad, real fast.

 

The only team in the Central positioned better for the future is the Royals and I think Moore blew it by trading for Shields this offseason.

[ThePuck]

Yay, Swisher. Maybe that will offset the fact that the Indians have a bottom 10 farm system (as do the Tigers and White Sox). As much as I bitch about the Twins' free agent acquisitions (or lack thereof), I wouldn't trade places with either the White Sox or Indians and you'd have to make a convincing argument to trade places with Detroit, a team that is going to be good for another year or two and then will get real bad, real fast.

 

The only team in the Central positioned better for the future is the Royals and I think Moore blew it by trading for Shields this offseason.

 

Assuming the prospects work out or aren't stifled in the minors, you could very well be right

[Brock Beauchamp]

Assuming the prospects work out or aren't stifled in the minors, you could very well be right

 

Contrary to popular opinion around here, there is no evidence that the Twins stifle their minor league players. Do they keep them in the minors for a long time? Yeah, particularly the hitters. But over the past 10-12 years, the Twins have produced a lot of quality hitters. You'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that the team is stifling their hitters when they've churned out the likes of Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Span and now it appears as if they may have salvaged what looked like some pretty bad drafts with Plouffe and Parmelee while Hicks, Arcia, Sano, etc. are waiting in the wings.

 

As for pitching, well... The Twins just haven't done a good job of finding talented arms in the past 5-7 years. Hard to find much in the way of MLB quality arms when you draft like crap and then run into more than your fair share of awful luck.

[Seth Stohs]

I've always liked Swisher. I enjoy charismatic players. He generally isn't a disrespectful player. His slide on Nishioka was not at all wrong. He is a terrific player. He takes tremendous at bats, takes a lot of pitchers, walks and he has home run power. He's a solid RF and a decent 1B. Would I have given him that contract? Probably not, but it's a nice signing. And, the Ohio State alum goes back to the state to play.

[Guest USAFChief]

Yay, Swisher. Maybe that will offset the fact that the Indians have a bottom 10 farm system (as do the Tigers and White Sox). As much as I bitch about the Twins' free agent acquisitions (or lack thereof), I wouldn't trade places with either the White Sox or Indians and you'd have to make a convincing argument to trade places with Detroit, a team that is going to be good for another year or two and then will get real bad, real fast.

 

The only team in the Central positioned better for the future is the Royals and I think Moore blew it by trading for Shields this offseason.

 

trying to project years into the future in baseball is fun, but pretty much impossible. Just my opinion, but I would almost always trade the future for the present in baseball. I would trade places with Detroit in a heartbeat, KC as well. And off the top of my head I would most likely swap with the Chisox as well. Cleveland I'd have to look at more closely, but whatever the difference between farm systems, the chances of the Twins minor league system turning out a championship team in a couple years aren't significantly different than any other team's system.

[Brock Beauchamp]

trying to project years into the future in baseball is fun, but pretty much impossible. Just my opinion, but I would almost always trade the future for the present in baseball. I would trade places with Detroit in a heartbeat, KC as well. And off the top of my head I would most likely swap with the Chisox as well. Cleveland I'd have to look at more closely, but whatever the difference between farm systems, the chances of the Twins minor league system turning out a championship team in a couple years aren't significantly different than any other team's system.

 

Detroit can spend their way out of a bad farm system (to an extent, anyway). But have you looked at Cleveland or Chicago's farm systems? They're awful, especially Chicago. Mid-market teams can't succeed with a complete dearth of minor league help. Chicago and Cleveland have a ceiling of mediocrity and a floor of terrible over the next several years. Their Major League rosters are meh and there is virtually zero help on the way in the minors. At least the Twins and Royals have promise. Detroit is kind of playing their own game since their owner will do whatever it takes to win a championship before he dies. And once he punches his card, it's highly unlikely the team will continue to overspend the way it has in recent years (and he could die tomorrow for all we know).

 

Give me Sano, Rosario, Arcia, Gibson, Meyer, May, Hicks, etc. over any other farm in the division, excepting the Royals.

[PseudoSABR]

trying to project years into the future in baseball is fun, but pretty much impossible. Just my opinion, but I would almost always trade the future for the present in baseball. I would trade places with Detroit in a heartbeat, KC as well. And off the top of my head I would most likely swap with the Chisox as well. Cleveland I'd have to look at more closely, but whatever the difference between farm systems, the chances of the Twins minor league system turning out a championship team in a couple years aren't significantly different than any other team's system.

As logical as your point might seem, the Twins have always won doing the exactly opposite approach. The cores of their winning teams have always been home grown or players acquired as prospects. Typically the present is overpriced in terms of what it cost in future value. How many years of serviceable players did KC trade for two years each of Davis and Shields? That approach doesn't make sense to me, and as a fan, I hope for the Twins as well. It's not really about projecting what happens in the future, it's about getting numbers of controllable players who you believe have talent. The more of those players you have arriving at the same time the better it is for your team--the rest, as you suggest, is left unpredicatable.

 

When the Twins have a better core, I'm all for overpaying for the present, but that's not this year and probably not next year either. Gulp.

[70charger]

^ +1

[Riverbrian]

Trading the future for the present doesn't always work and trading the present for the future doesn't always work...

 

However... Competing with a weak farm system will be damn expensive and very inconsistent... Because when you fail... You fail and spend big money for the failure.

 

The only way to field a competitive club every year or most years is to build a strong farm system and that is how trading your future for the present will kill ya.

[kab21]

While I agree with what the Twins are doing long term it should be pointed out that the White Sox have consistently had one of the lowest ranked farm systems in baseball. I've expected this crash for a long time and yet they have continued to be competitive and have even turned out a few homegrown players during that time. The Tigers have also had weak farm systems for a long time and they haven't crashed either but they have had a stronger MLB core.

[Brock Beauchamp]

While I agree with what the Twins are doing long term it should be pointed out that the White Sox have consistently had one of the lowest ranked farm systems in baseball. I've expected this crash for a long time and yet they have continued to be competitive and have even turned out a few homegrown players during that time. The Tigers have also had weak farm systems for a long time and they haven't crashed either but they have had a stronger MLB core.

 

Detroit's recent success was built on the back of historically awful seasons (and the resulting draft picks) from the early 2000s. To sustain that success, they've been spending money like drunken Democrats. Either way, the base of their success was internal, though it was heavily supplemented by cold, hard cash.

 

As for Chicago, they haven't made the playoffs since 2008 and haven't done much since 2005 when their team was... you guessed it, largely built from within.

 

Mid-market teams just don't win without help from the farm. The best you can hope for is consistent mediocrity.

[kab21]

The point wasn't that Chicago has been great but rather that they haven't crashed (like the Twins) despite having awful farm systems. We've been expecting them to crash for as long as I remember. We've also been expecting the Tigers to crash for several years now and we're still waiting. Other than Verlander the Tigers didn't hit on any early picks in the 2000's so that's not why they were good.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The point wasn't that Chicago has been great but rather that they haven't crashed (like the Twins) despite having awful farm systems. We've been expecting them to crash for as long as I remember. We've also been expecting the Tigers to crash for several years now and we're still waiting. Other than Verlander the Tigers didn't hit on any early picks in the 2000's so that's not why they were good.

 

But they flipped a bunch of prospects for Miggy and restocked by trading guys like Granderson, drafted during their awful stretch. It all stemmed from those early to mid 2000s picks. Then they spent a **** ton of money to supplement those players.

 

I keep expecting the Sox to implode but Williams manages to assemble a mediocre team every year. Of course, they also haven't won 90 games in over five years and have only made the playoffs once.

[kab21]

But they flipped a bunch of prospects for Miggy and restocked by trading guys like Granderson, drafted during their awful stretch. It all stemmed from those early to mid 2000s picks. Then they spent a **** ton of money to supplement those players.

 

I keep expecting the Sox to implode but Williams manages to assemble a mediocre team every year. Of course, they also haven't won 90 games in over five years and have only made the playoffs once.

 

I think you need to review all of those high picks that they were drafting when they were terrible. Pretty much the only high pick that turned out was Verlander and they were able to trade two others for the right to give MCab a Johan type extension.

 

I also strongly dislike everything the Sox have done building their but they haven't collapsed and despite having horrible farm systems for years they have produced some good players.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think you need to review all of those high picks that they were drafting when they were terrible. Pretty much the only high pick that turned out was Verlander and they were able to trade two others for the right to give MCab a Johan type extension.

 

My point isn't that they drafted well with those high picks, it's that their resurgence was borne from internal players, not external signings. After that point, it was supplemented with money but to start off, they did it from the farm.

[kab21]

Actually your point and others in this thread was that the Tigers were going to get bad fast. We've been expecting that for several years and they are still very good. It's not going to happen as fast as you think unless they lose Verlander and MCab in back to back offseasons but that would kill most teams. I countered with the discussions from the last 5 years that we've been having about the White Sox inevitable collapse and they've managed to win 88 and 89 games in recent seasons (conveniently below your 90 win mark).

 

I wouldn't trade places with either the White Sox or Indians and you'd have to make a convincing argument to trade places with Detroit, a team that is going to be good for another year or two and then will get real bad, real fast.

 

While I agree about the White Sox and Indians I would certainly trade places with Detroit.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Actually your point and others in this thread was that the Tigers were going to get bad fast. We've been expecting that for several years and they are still very good. It's not going to happen as fast as you think unless they lose Verlander and MCab in back to back offseasons but that would kill most teams. I countered with the discussions from the last 5 years that we've been having about the White Sox inevitable collapse and they've managed to win 88 and 89 games in recent seasons (conveniently below your 90 win mark).

 

While I agree about the White Sox and Indians I would certainly trade places with Detroit.

 

The Tigers haven't gotten bad yet because they continue to raise their payroll well beyond what anyone would have considered reasonable. There's only so far they can go with that, though. Sooner or later, that bubble is going to burst. Even the Yankees can't spend their way out of player development and their payroll ceiling is considerably higher than Detroit's. And when the bubble does burst, it will hit them hard because they've signed several guys to astronomical contracts that won't age well.

 

As for the White Sox, they've been pretty mediocre in a bad division. 88 and 89 wins in six years (only one of which turned into a playoff berth after a required game 163) isn't going to impress me much. Williams has done a pretty good job with an awful farm system (that he continues to plunder at every opportunity) but sooner or later, his luck will run out. It's merely surprising that it hasn't already and that the Sox continue to keep their heads above water.