Vikings Off-Season Thread

[Vanimal46]

The Vikings have never had a great TE. Rudolph is probably the best we've had over the last 20 years, and we all know his flaws.

 

I think the perception of the position would change dramatically if we had a TE on roster who could stretch the field, break tackles, and run after the catch like Gronk/Kittle/Ertz.

 

One thing to note: New England didn't address TE in the draft or FA. Perhaps the window is still open to trade Rudolph there.

[nicksaviking]

 

The Vikings have never had a great TE. Rudolph is probably the best we've had over the last 20 years, and we all know his flaws.

I think the perception of the position would change dramatically if we had a TE on roster who could stretch the field, break tackles, and run after the catch like Gronk/Kittle/Ertz.

One thing to note: New England didn't address TE in the draft or FA. Perhaps the window is still open to trade Rudolph there.

 

Funny, I was going to post the same thing about NE. Trading a guy they planned on cutting for a conditional draft pick before trading for another TE is a total NE move.

 

My perception of the TE position stems more from a league-wide view though. Fantasy football isn't typically a great barometer of real football, but in the case of who's getting targeted, it sure seems to show that the league has gone from about a dozen dozen or more teams who regularly feature the TE as a primary receiving option to about four or five teams. Except in only a few cases, it's just not a big part of the gameplan. 

[TheLeviathan]

Nick, are you suggesting that the TE position is being used less like an offensive weapon than the past?

 

I feel like that's what I'm reading and it perplexes me.

[nicksaviking]

 

Nick, are you suggesting that the TE position is being used less like an offensive weapon than the past?

 

I feel like that's what I'm reading and it perplexes me.

 

Probably not in overall targets since the passing games have increased overall volume to such a large degree, but in percentage of targets I'd think so. You only ever have three or four meaningful tight ends each year, and usually only about two of them are year-in and year-out difference makers.

 

I mean we're talking about replacing Kyle Rudolph, who for the past 8 seasons has probably been overall a top 5 TE, and most people have seemed bored with him for most of that run. I find it hard to predict something better than top 5 league-wide production from any draft pick.

 

And I'm not trying to promote Kyle Rudolph, just that the drop off from the number 5 TE to say the number 15 TE probably isn't all that great. If you don't have one of the few truly elite TEs, all you have is a regular TE.

[TheLeviathan]

Sure, but TEs used to just be 6th offensive linemen.  Shannon Sharpe, one of the best ever, averaged 65-70 catches a year. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem right ot me that TE usage has gone down as receivers.

[nicksaviking]

 

Sure, but TEs used to just be 6th offensive linemen.  Shannon Sharpe, one of the best ever, averaged 65-70 catches a year. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem right ot me that TE usage has gone down as receivers.

 

I don't have any numbers, and I'm not a great offensive play-calling mind. It just seems to me if you get a TE in round 2 and his production is that of your typical Kyle Rudolph, Austin Hooper or Evan Engram year, no one is going to notice or much care and we'll already be pining for better options despite these guys being top ten players.

 

And I don't think it really has anything to do with the players themselves. Eric Ebron and Brandon Pettigrew were studs coming out of college. Ebron proved he was the athletic freak everyone expected, but he didn't do anything with it until he found himself in Frank Reich's system and he got the Zach Ertz treatment. Good luck to TJ Hokenson but either the Lions system, or more like Matthew Stafford, just don't look the TE's way to make him more than an average producer.

 

OJ Howard still looks like the stud everyone saw in college, maybe he'd put up numbers under Andy Reid or catching passes from Tom Brady, but he's an afterthought in TB. Is the TE going to be featured in a Stefanski/Kubiak offense? Maybe, I guess I don't know, Kubiak hasn't seemed to be much of a TE focused play caller in the past. Seems to me in a downfield passing league the TEs end up getting primarily check down looks but now they're fighting for those with the slot receiver and now the RB since every team has pass catching backs.

 

Anyway, probably what I should have said to avoid the gibberish above, I think successful TEs are a product of the system. I don't think you're getting a Zach Ertz or a Travis Kelce unless both your offense and your QB are trying to push the offense through your TE, and I don't think the Vikings are.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't have any numbers, and I'm not a great offensive play-calling mind. It just seems to me if you get a TE in round 2 and his production is that of your typical Kyle Rudolph, Austin Hooper or Evan Engram year, no one is going to notice or much care and we'll already be pining for better options despite these guys being top ten players.

 

 

Anyway, probably what I should have said to avoid the gibberish above, I think successful TEs are a product of the system. I don't think you're getting a Zach Ertz or a Travis Kelce unless both your offense and your QB are trying to push the offense through your TE, and I don't think the Vikings are.

 

That helps.  I guess what I see Smith offering is a player who can do more to take advantage of the attention Thielen and Diggs get.  Rudolph cannot separate, cannot run after the catch, etc.  That limits what you can do with him in the first place.

 

Smith offers upside to justify more usage.  The Chiefs do a great job feeding a lot of mouths and feeding the defense whatever poison it chooses.  (You can't stop everyone)  The Vikings, with Cook, Smith, Diggs, and Thielen offers a much harder team to defend.

[nicksaviking]

 

That helps.  I guess what I see Smith offering is a player who can do more to take advantage of the attention Thielen and Diggs get.  Rudolph cannot separate, cannot run after the catch, etc.  That limits what you can do with him in the first place.

 

Smith offers upside to justify more usage.  The Chiefs do a great job feeding a lot of mouths and feeding the defense whatever poison it chooses.  (You can't stop everyone)  The Vikings, with Cook, Smith, Diggs, and Thielen offers a much harder team to defend.

 

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I like the tape I saw on Smith. I just think the system is going to put a ceiling on what that talent can deliver. Rudolph isn't fast nor terribly athletic but he's still an above average TE, and still producing about the same as when he was faster and more athletic. That makes me think that whether the TE is Rudolph, Smith or Morgan, there's probably a very narrow floor to ceiling differential that all three would slot into as far as production goes.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I like the tape I saw on Smith. I just think the system is going to put a ceiling on what that talent can deliver. Rudolph isn't fast nor terribly athletic but he's still an above average TE, and still producing about the same as when he was faster and more athletic. That makes me think that whether the TE is Rudolph, Smith or Morgan, there's probably a very narrow floor to ceiling differential that all three would slot into as far as production goes.

 

Honestly, I think that's because Rudolph has been force fed to the detriment of the offense.  But i'm also very anti-Rudolph.

[nicksaviking]

 

Honestly, I think that's because Rudolph has been force fed to the detriment of the offense.  But i'm also very anti-Rudolph.

 

I'd guess most fans are pretty anti-their TE, but if the only thing holding back the Vikings from having a statistical stud at that position is the individual's athletic ability, I'll probably be more than happy with Smith.

[Vanimal46]

 

Rudolph may be traded sooner than later.

[Vanimal46]

https://twitter.com/AndyCarlsonShow/status/1126907692646305792?s=19

 

Trading Rudolph to the Pats seems like destiny. Take one of their three 3rd round comp picks and call it a day.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

https://twitter.com/AndyCarlsonShow/status/1126907692646305792?s=19

Trading Rudolph to the Pats seems like destiny. Take one of their three 3rd round comp picks and call it a day.

 

I was kind of hoping he would get extended for a couple years and we run a bunch of 2 TE sets. That eliminates that need for a 3rd WR as I think Rudy and Smith are both going to be better pass catching options... 

 

but with this falling a part, you might be right. Not sure Rudy is worth a 3rd though. That's just me.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I was kind of hoping he would get extended for a couple years and we run a bunch of 2 TE sets. That eliminates that need for a 3rd WR as I think Rudy and Smith are both going to be better pass catching options... 

 

but with this falling a part, you might be right. Not sure Rudy is worth a 3rd though. That's just me.

 

Not worth it!

[nicksaviking]

 

I was kind of hoping he would get extended for a couple years and we run a bunch of 2 TE sets. That eliminates that need for a 3rd WR as I think Rudy and Smith are both going to be better pass catching options... 

 

but with this falling a part, you might be right. Not sure Rudy is worth a 3rd though. That's just me.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't want to give up a 3rd rounder for Rudolph. Or any non-elite TE. So at this point the options appear to be, 1. Trade him for a pick, 2. Let him play out his contract and let him walk and get a comp pick or 3. Release him and get nothing.

 

I have a feeling they're going to end up with nothing.

[Mr. Brooks]

PFT is reporting that the Vikings have offered Rudolph a 5 year extension that would make him one of the highest paid TE's in the league, and Rudolph turned it down.

Bizarre.

[TheLeviathan]

I....what? Why would they do that? Why would he do that?

 

Doesn't smell right.

[Vanimal46]

The 2nd wave of free agency will happen sooner or later. Lots of intriguing names left on this list.

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/6/10/18659006/nfl-free-agents-still-available

 

Also, a tidbit in that article is LT Trent Williams requesting a trade or released by Washington. I know player for player trades are rare in the NFL... But I'd be interested if they would do Reiff or O'Niell + swapping draft picks for Williams?

[Mike Sixel]

PFT is reporting that the Vikings have offered Rudolph a 5 year extension that would make him one of the highest paid TE's in the league, and Rudolph turned it down.

Bizarre.

Was it posted April 1?

[TheLeviathan]

The Vikings simply couldn't afford to add anyone else at this point.

[Mr. Brooks]

4/36 for Rudolph. Makes him the 4th highest paid TE in the league, behind Graham, Reed and Kelce.

[Vanimal46]

I'm waiting until the contract details come out. Hoping for very little guaranteed money in this deal.

[TheLeviathan]

More Rudolph?

 

[Vanimal46]

More Rudolph?

 

I know everyone is amazed by Brezenski's wizardry with the cap... Perpetually kicking guaranteed money down the road is going to catch up with this team sooner than later.

 

Not sure if spotrac's numbers are accurate... They're projecting the Vikings will be $20 million OVER the cap in 2020.

[Vanimal46]

The 2 biggest head scratchers this off-season for me is resigning Barr and Rudolph. I would have let Barr walk and not think twice about it. Then let Rudolph play out the last year of his contract and walk after 2019.

[Mike Sixel]

Mind. Boggled.

[Badsmerf]

The 2 biggest head scratchers this off-season for me is resigning Barr and Rudolph. I would have let Barr walk and not think twice about it. Then let Rudolph play out the last year of his contract and walk after 2019.

Agree 100%.

[Mike Sixel]

Starting to look like "we need to keep the vets around for one last push" time.....which makes both sense, and me nervous. Was Kyle even that good last year?

[Mr. Brooks]

ProFootballTalk - NBC Sports: Kyle Rudolph's new deal makes it easier for Vikings to keep him around.

https://profootballtalk-nbcsports-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/06/11/kyle-rudolphs-new-deal-makes-it-easier-for-vikings-to-keep-him-around/amp/

[Mr. Brooks]

Starting to look like "we need to keep the vets around for one last push" time.....which makes both sense, and me nervous. Was Kyle even that good last year?

They already had him for this year though. And this new deal gives him almost 2 million MORE this year, fully guaranteed, and guarantees almost 8 million next year to injury.

This extension doesn't help the team in the short term, they, unlike us, clearly value Rudolph long term.

I don't get it.