NBA 2018-19 Thread

[TheLeviathan]

The NBA forces teams into some rough choices. I don't entirely blame the Wolves.

 

And I put some blame on Butler. He is a ball hog who simply did not fit with Towns and Wiggins. He has been the problem from day 1.

[Mr. Brooks]

The NBA forces teams into some rough choices. I don't entirely blame the Wolves.

 

And I put some blame on Butler. He is a ball hog who simply did not fit with Towns and Wiggins. He has been the problem from day 1.

I'm admittedly not an NBA expert, but it never seemed like a difficult decision to me. Wiggins has never shown any indication that he'd ever be the kind of player you'd miss.

On the contrary, he's consistently ranked among the worst regulars in the league, according to the advanced metrics.

 

Some people see crazy athleticism, and seem desperate to extrapolate that out to something more than it is.

This team will be a lot better off without Wiggins, and not just because of the salary. He's a negative value player.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm admittedly not an NBA expert, but it never seemed like a difficult decision to me. Wiggins has never shown any indication that he'd ever be the kind of player you'd miss.
On the contrary, he's consistently ranked among the worst regulars in the league, according to the advanced metrics.

Some people see crazy athleticism, and seem desperate to extrapolate that out to something more than it is.
This team will be a lot better off without Wiggins, and not just because of the salary. He's a negative value player.

 

Don't you think he was at least trending in the right direction years 2-3?  I agree, the potential seems to have evaporated, but I don't think it's coincidence that the team added a ball-hog that altered where and how he played on the court.

[Mr. Brooks]

Don't you think he was at least trending in the right direction years 2-3? I agree, the potential seems to have evaporated, but I don't think it's coincidence that the team added a ball-hog that altered where and how he played on the court.

There may have been some improvements offensively, I don't recall exactly.

But, defense matters too.

I'm not sure how Butler being a ball hog prevents Wiggins from playing defense.

Unless Wiggins can improve dramatically on defense, no amount of offense is going to make him a positive player. At least according to the metrics, I thankfully don't watch many Wolves games.

[TheLeviathan]

 

There may have been some improvements offensively, I don't recall exactly.
But, defense matters too.
I'm not sure how Butler being a ball hog prevents Wiggins from playing defense.
Unless Wiggins can improve dramatically on defense, no amount of offense is going to make him a positive player. At least according to the metrics, I thankfully don't watch many Wolves games.

 

His Winshares were trending in the right direction.  I'm not a basketball analytics expert, but prior to last year things were not so dire with him.  

 

And you're right, Butler doesn't present him from playing defense, but could Butler being defending the players Wiggins is better suited to defend?  To me, I see Butler and Wiggins as roughly similar in terms of size/build.  It seems to me both of them would be better suited playing with a SF who is a long, athletic defender and they match-up better against SGs.  

 

But, like you, I'm not a basketball expert.  I just question how much of a coincidence it is he's fallen off a cliff the moment Butler arrived.  Towns also has had some of the luster wear off.

[Mr. Brooks]

His Winshares were trending in the right direction. I'm not a basketball analytics expert, but prior to last year things were not so dire with him.

 

And you're right, Butler doesn't present him from playing defense, but could Butler being defending the players Wiggins is better suited to defend? To me, I see Butler and Wiggins as roughly similar in terms of size/build. It seems to me both of them would be better suited playing with a SF who is a long, athletic defender and they match-up better against SGs.

 

But, like you, I'm not a basketball expert. I just question how much of a coincidence it is he's fallen off a cliff the moment Butler arrived. Towns also has had some of the luster wear off.

Perhaps. But I still think any improvements he may have been making were still a far, far cry from max contract.

I didn't understand that one from the start.

[Vanimal46]

Perhaps. But I still think any improvements he may have been making were still a far, far cry from max contract.

I didn't understand that one from the start.

I remember there being concerns from the higher ups about Wiggins' effort if he was paid a max contract. Enough concern where Glen Taylor had to "look him in the eye" before offering it to him. In hindsight they were right to be concerned.

[Mike Sixel]

The NBA salary situation and CBA doesn't leave teams much choice. If they don't go max, players leave. While that might be more efficient, ,replace Wiggins with a 2nd round pick, and they are actually worse.....you can't win without players. It's an awful CBA, from a team perspective. It's great for players. So, I guess I'm biased to like it from that perspective......

[Mr. Brooks]

The NBA salary situation and CBA doesn't leave teams much choice. If they don't go max, players leave. While that might be more efficient, ,replace Wiggins with a 2nd round pick, and they are actually worse.....you can't win without players. It's an awful CBA, from a team perspective. It's great for players. So, I guess I'm biased to like it from that perspective......

1) I'm not sure I agree a 2nd round pick is worse. It's not like we're talking about a solid player who is unfortunately overpaid. We're talking about one of the worst players in the NBA. According to the advance metrics, Wiggins has negative value when he's on the floor. You literally need someone else to play good, just to get back to even.

 

2) But, regardless of point 1, you aren't really replacing him with a 2nd rounder. You are replacing him with whichever FA you can get with all that saved money.

[Mike Sixel]

 

1) I'm not sure I agree a 2nd round pick is worse. It's not like we're talking about a solid player who is unfortunately overpaid. We're talking about one of the worst players in the NBA. According to the advance metrics, Wiggins has negative value when he's on the floor. You literally need someone else to play good, just to get back to even.

2) But, regardless of point 1, you aren't really replacing him with a 2nd rounder. You are replacing him with whichever FA you can get with all that saved money.

 

true, if you can attract one that plays that position....true.

[Mr. Brooks]

true, if you can attract one that plays that position....true.

Position isn't as important in today's NBA.

It's not uncommon for teams to play 3, or even 4 wings at a time.

[PseudoSABR]

 

[Vanimal46]

Can't comment on the players named from Philly but it seems like a worse trade than what Houston offered.

[Vanimal46]

And now back to your regular scheduled programming of not paying attention to the Wolves. Carry on.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Can't comment on the players named from Philly but it seems like a worse trade than what Houston offered.

They don't take on a bad contract (Knight), which was a condition of the Houston trade.  The Wolves have been lucky if any of the Houston picks landed the caliber of the player of Saric; and Covington is pretty good 3 and D guy.  

 

I'm really interested to see how Markkanen's and Saric's careers compare.

[TheLeviathan]

Covington is a 6'9 all NBA defensive player and Saric is a stretch 4. I can't imagine a better fit. Whether they work out...who knows.

 

But this should let Wiggins play SG and move some starter to the bench.

 

And the best part? Good riddance Butler.

[nicksaviking]

Here’s hoping Butler doesn’t think Simmons and Embid care as much about winning as he does too.

[TheLeviathan]

This article pretty much nails how I feel.

[nicksaviking]

Ok, now let’s retire Thibs as well. He’s not going to be getting the credit for this after first hiding the problem, then ignoring the problem followed by him obstructing the solution is he?

[TheLeviathan]

Reddit wins again.  

 

I knew watching the Wolves at the end of the game was brutal, but I didn't realize he had been this bad.

[ashbury]

Reddit wins again.  

 

I knew watching the Wolves at the end of the game was brutal, but I didn't realize he had been this bad.

Cruel but funny.

[nicksaviking]

 

Reddit wins again.  

 

I knew watching the Wolves at the end of the game was brutal, but I didn't realize he had been this bad.

 

Hmm, there seemed to be a lot of less than optimal looks in that sequence.

 

I'd think a guy who so desperately wants to win more than any other human being on earth might have passed to someone who didn't have to take an off balanced fade away with three hands in his face.

[ALessKosherScott]

I will admit I thought a Jimmy Butler trade was going to end way worse for the Timberwolves than it did. They were never going to win a Butler trade, but they did better than I thought they would. And four 20-something first picks from Houston was never a good offer.

 

I'd trade Lavine for Covington, knowing full well that Lavine and Wiggins are pretty much the same pieces. I'm not as sure on Markannen for Saric and Dunn for Bayless and a second. And as an added bonus, you put Butler in the worst possible situation for him where Simmons already plays the point forward role for Philadelphia. 

[Vanimal46]

Great read that details how Thibs bungled this whole Jimmy Buckets situation.

 

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25245073/adrian-wojnarowski-look-final-days-jimmy-butler-saga-nba

[ALessKosherScott]

I think my comment to that article is Joe Smith was the biggest bungle in T-Wolves history, and it wasn't even close.

 

I think Thibs gets graded from this point forward on how Okogie evolves and how well his new lineup works out. Covington can fill Butler's defensive duties, but the next step has to be restarting Wiggins offensively and getting him back to the levels he was at in his age 20 and 21 seasons, pre-Butler. He's never going to have Butler's all-around game, but he and Towns have to shoulder the offensive responsibility while Taj and Covington shore up the defense.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I think my comment to that article is Joe Smith was the biggest bungle in T-Wolves history, and it wasn't even close.

 

I think Thibs gets graded from this point forward on how Okogie evolves and how well his new lineup works out. Covington can fill Butler's defensive duties, but the next step has to be restarting Wiggins offensively and getting him back to the levels he was at in his age 20 and 21 seasons, pre-Butler. He's never going to have Butler's all-around game, but he and Towns have to shoulder the offensive responsibility while Taj and Covington shore up the defense.

So you see Taj continuing to start and Saric on the bench?

[Mr. Brooks]

Someone explain to me how this is a better deal than Richardson and a 1st rounder.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Someone explain to me how this is a better deal than Richardson and a 1st rounder.

 

It's probably not.  But Thibs blew that.

[Vanimal46]

It's probably not. But Thibs blew that.

Yeah he put his head in the sand thinking he could convince Butler to stay. He had a couple of offers better than the one they accepted from Philly it appears. It was a bad call that will ultimately cost him his job.

[Pardon My Dinger]

One more time. Say it with me: Thibs is trying to get fired.

 

Good trade though, all in all, IMO.

 

What I think we ultimately learned from all of this is that 1) Jimmy’s a total jerk, which I like but whatever, and 2) KAT is soft AF. If the Jimmy thing was truly wearing on him in games, man...suck it up and take it out on the floor. Earn it. Better grab hold of your emotions, because winning at a meaningful level is going to require you to block out the haters and aggressors and start stepping on some throats to pull out a win. I don’t want to see any more (for lack of a better term, I apologize) b****face out of that guy. You have your team now. It’s yours to lead. You can win, or you can not.