International signing scandal force Brave FO resignations

[nicksaviking]

Well it should be clear really soon which teams with bonus money plan on going after Ohtani. It would stink to save the money and pass on these guys for Ohtani and not get him, so you have to think only the clubs most confident in their ability to sign him will sit on their hands now.

[drjim]

Do they go for these guys or for Otani? I suppose they can use next year's money on them if they'd like.

These guys. Playing footsie with Otani has been good for some chuckles, but he's not coming here.

[Vanimal46]

To piggyback off of the international money lost for Atlanta over the next few years:
 

 

In the next two signing periods (2017-18 and 2018-19), Atlanta won’t be allowed to spend more than $300,000 for any player. In 2019-20, they won’t be allowed to spend more than $10,000 per player, and in 2020-21, the team’s international signing pool will be cut in half from its initial expected amount of $4.75 million.

 

The MLB is essentially cutting off Atlanta from the IFA pool. They'll have to find other ways to improve the team now. 

[nicksaviking]

These guys. Playing footsie with Otani has been good for some chuckles, but he's not coming here.

I'd suspect there have been enough conversations that most teams already have a good idea about which team(s) are realistic for Ohtani. If our front office was as in the dark as us and proceeding based on unsubstantiated optimism, they're doing it wrong.

[drjim]

I'd suspect there have been enough conversations that most teams already have a good idea about which team(s) are realistic for Ohtani. If our front were as in the dark as us and proceeding based on unsubstantiated optimism, they're doing it wrong.

I'm extremely confident that the front office did enough due dilligence to realize that Otani isn't coming here.

[MN_ExPat]

I'm extremely confident that the front office did enough due dilligence to realize that Otani isn't coming here.

Just to play devils advocate, and because I like to cause hate and discontent (AKA I’m a really salty, dysfunctional vet) I’m going to say the Twins have a chance to sign him. Note, I say a chance... nothing more.

 

BTW,

Cool story bro.

 

P.S.

I’m thinking that I should really stop having a few adult beverages and then posting.

[nytwinsfan]

 

Just to play devils advocate, and because I like to cause hate and discontent (AKA I’m a really salty, dysfunctional vet) I’m going to say the Twins have a chance to sign him. Note, I say a chance... nothing more.

BTW,
Cool story bro.

P.S.
I’m thinking that I should really stop having a few adult beverages and then posting.

Yeah, obviously the chances of him coming here are small, but writing the Twins off completely seems strange to me.

[nicksaviking]

I'm extremely confident that the front office did enough due dilligence to realize that Otani isn't coming here.

You're more confident than I then.

 

Not in the front office doing their due diligence but in the impossibility of signing Ohtani. I thought it was a pipe dream a month ago, there's been enough signs since to intrigue me however.

[drjim]

 

Yeah, obviously the chances of him coming here are small, but writing the Twins off completely seems strange to me.

 

Fair enough, shouldn't have written them off completely, it's probably more like this:

 

 

(Don't get me wrong, few things in my sports fandom would make me happier than to be wrong about this)

[drjim]

 

You're more confident than I then.

Not in the front office doing their due diligence but in the impossibility of signing Ohtani. I thought it was a pipe dream a month ago, there's been enough signs since to intrigue me however.

 

I'm curious what signs you speak of.

[Guest]

One sad but interesting thing about the Braves situation (Ohtani seems like a different thread) is that most of the top prospects are now considered much less valuable than they were just six months ago. So the Braves cheated and may still have ended up with bad players. Even If Coppolella hadn’t been banned, he might have had a big problem getting another job anyway.

[biggentleben]

 

One sad but interesting thing about the Braves situation (Ohtani seems like a different thread) is that most of the top prospects are now considered much less valuable than they were just six months ago. So the Braves cheated and may still have ended up with bad players. Even If Coppolella hadn’t been banned, he might have had a big problem getting another job anyway.

 

Not sure what you're talking about there. Soto could make more money today than he did. Gutierrez perhaps not, but his deal was always the most questionable as far as money to talent. The pitchers both did exactly what Latin pitchers do in their first year. Maitan gained some weight, it affected him on the field, and he's trimmed down significantly.

 

Braves can resign any of the players after May 1st, so that could be intriguing, depending on how the players feel about the Braves org (and remember that the guys doing crappy stuff were not the guys they've been dealing with for about a year now.

 

I got a text from my former scouting contact that's in NY at the MLB headquarters now. He told me in early October that the list I sent him for my top 100 was all safe based on what MLB headed in to investigate. The details they found are absolutely heinous and will never be public, but let's just say that what Hollywood and DC are accused of right now doesn't hold water to what Coppy was doing in Latin America. He also said any single thing with a player's name before today was not true reporting from any real source. The entire investigative team was not allowed to speak with anyone before today on this and the people from the league that went to the Braves facility to talk with players left NY without knowing who they were going to talk to. They were told this morning by the investigators who were not present at the Braves facility.

 

The international market thing is interesting because the Braves actually have a significant amount of money, even though they can't spend more than $300K on any one player. They could end up gaining prospects by trading away IFA money to teams who are signing their former prospects. That's also how they'll likely address the IFA market the next few years, trading away most of it.

 

Crazy part of all this. Jim Callis mentioned that even after losing all the players they did, every one of them a viable candidate to make the top 30 for a team that signs them, the Braves only moved to #2 in his organizational rankings.

[Dman]

 

Not sure what you're talking about there. Soto could make more money today than he did. Gutierrez perhaps not, but his deal was always the most questionable as far as money to talent. The pitchers both did exactly what Latin pitchers do in their first year. Maitan gained some weight, it affected him on the field, and he's trimmed down significantly.

 

Braves can resign any of the players after May 1st, so that could be intriguing, depending on how the players feel about the Braves org (and remember that the guys doing crappy stuff were not the guys they've been dealing with for about a year now.

 

I got a text from my former scouting contact that's in NY at the MLB headquarters now. He told me in early October that the list I sent him for my top 100 was all safe based on what MLB headed in to investigate. The details they found are absolutely heinous and will never be public, but let's just say that what Hollywood and DC are accused of right now doesn't hold water to what Coppy was doing in Latin America. He also said any single thing with a player's name before today was not true reporting from any real source. The entire investigative team was not allowed to speak with anyone before today on this and the people from the league that went to the Braves facility to talk with players left NY without knowing who they were going to talk to. They were told this morning by the investigators who were not present at the Braves facility.

 

The international market thing is interesting because the Braves actually have a significant amount of money, even though they can't spend more than $300K on any one player. They could end up gaining prospects by trading away IFA money to teams who are signing their former prospects. That's also how they'll likely address the IFA market the next few years, trading away most of it.

 

Crazy part of all this. Jim Callis mentioned that even after losing all the players they did, every one of them a viable candidate to make the top 30 for a team that signs them, the Braves only moved to #2 in his organizational rankings.

Yeah I don't understand why the Braves felt they needed to do this as they received a ton of great prospects with all the trades they made and have done OK in the Draft as well.  I don't know why they felt the need to go overboard?  They would have done well not cheating the system.  

 

I guess the one good thing to come out of this is that anyone who thinks they can get away with this stuff indefinitely is going to pay a stiff price when they get caught.  Hopefully this will be a good deter-ant to those thinking of breaking the rules.

[Guest]

Not sure what you're talking about there. Soto could make more money today than he did. Gutierrez perhaps not, but his deal was always the most questionable as far as money to talent. The pitchers both did exactly what Latin pitchers do in their first year. Maitan gained some weight, it affected him on the field, and he's trimmed down.

Your reporting is interesting, but all of the articles I’ve read have downgraded most of the top prospects, especially Maitan. Time will tell if they get money close to what the Braves gave them. No matter what, it does not appear that the Braves got any bargains by cheating.

[biggentleben]

 

Your reporting is interesting, but all of the articles I’ve read have downgraded most of the top prospects, especially Maitan. Time will tell if they get money close to what the Braves gave them. No matter what, it does not appear that the Braves got any bargains by cheating.

 

The point wasn't to get bargains. It was to ensure the guys signed with the Braves.

[biggentleben]

 

Yeah I don't understand why the Braves felt they needed to do this as they received a ton of great prospects with all the trades they made and have done OK in the Draft as well.  I don't know why they felt the need to go overboard?  They would have done well not cheating the system.  

 

I guess the one good thing to come out of this is that anyone who thinks they can get away with this stuff indefinitely is going to pay a stiff price when they get caught.  Hopefully this will be a good deter-ant to those thinking of breaking the rules.

 

There are more to come. The Pirates one will be announced in December. The investigators for the Braves are pouring through another organization already.

[Guest]

The point wasn't to get bargains. It was to ensure the guys signed with the Braves.

Ok, I’ll agree they cheated and overpaid. As I said in my OP, that’s wouldn’t lead to many job opportunities, even if Coppy wasn’t banned.

 

Thanks for all of your other information.

[nicksaviking]

I'm curious what signs you speak of.

The Twins reported strong interest in signing fellow countryman Yu Darvish, the reports that Ohtani wants to get in on the ground floor of a team on the verge of contention and not an established powerhouse, the Twins voiding the contract of their top international signing making them one of only a few teams that can offer Ohtani a real paycheck and the Twins surprisingly only filling 36 of their 40 roster spots. Plus, if he wants any chance to hit regularly, he's going to the AL; sorry Cubs and Dodgers.

 

If it happens I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not going to be one of many people around here flipping out if the Yankees sign Maiten next week. I'll wait until we see where all the chips fall before I get upset.

[caninatl04]

I️ am guessing that the International FA system is looking at a major revision.

[drjim]

 

I️ am guessing that the International FA system is looking at a major revision.

 

I think the major revision is happening through enforcing existing rules. Really only three options - a free for all, a draft, or tweaking/enforcing the current rules.

[beckmt]

 

I think the major revision is happening through enforcing existing rules. Really only three options - a free for all, a draft, or tweaking/enforcing the current rules.

I am in favor of a draft, but doubt it will happen. 

This does not come as a surprise, Latin America is another area with a lot of corruption, part of the system.  The Braves were just far worse offenders than most of the other clubs.  This will end up being at least 3 organizations and I suspect more will be found in the next year.  

[drjim]

I am in favor of a draft, but doubt it will happen.

This does not come as a surprise, Latin America is another area with a lot of corruption, part of the system. The Braves were just far worse offenders than most of the other clubs. This will end up being at least 3 organizations and I suspect more will be found in the next year.

Doesn't surprise me in the least either. Strikes me as a huge challenge to clean up the trainers controlling talent and the corruption that flows from that. I wonder if raising the age would do anything.

[nicksaviking]

 

I️ am guessing that the International FA system is looking at a major revision.

 

For the players - I hope so.

 

Selfishly - If my favorite team can stumble into star player cheaply once, before this ridiculous process is overhauled, Yay!!!!!

[nicksaviking]

 

I am in favor of a draft, but doubt it will happen. 

This does not come as a surprise, Latin America is another area with a lot of corruption, part of the system.  The Braves were just far worse offenders than most of the other clubs.  This will end up being at least 3 organizations and I suspect more will be found in the next year.  

 

I'd have to think this Atalanta situation is going to cause a big push for the draft. If Pittsburgh and/or other teams also are found guilty I'd think there'd be enough outcry to get the ball rolling. Nothing like a good scandal to make people who otherwise wouldn't care demand change.

[drjim]

 

For the players - I hope so.

 

Selfishly - If my favorite team can stumble into star player cheaply once, before this ridiculous process is overhauled, Yay!!!!!

 

I think this is a little overstated (as is the draft). The cap certainly impacts a few guys at the top end, but really doesn't make much of a difference for the vast majority of players. 

 

At least with the International signings they have the freedom to choose their team.

[Vanimal46]

These players are already restricted financially in the current system. I wouldn't want their ability to sign with any team restricted as well. 

 

Ideally the system should be a free for all so they can sign with whoever they want, for however much they want. 

[drjim]

 

These players are already restricted financially in the current system. I wouldn't want their ability to sign with any team restricted as well. 

 

Ideally the system should be a free for all so they can sign with whoever they want, for however much they want. 

 

The system you are proposing was the system not that long ago. The bonuses were really not all that different and the corruption with the trainers was just as bad, if not worse.

[beckmt]

 

I'd have to think this Atalanta situation is going to cause a big push for the draft. If Pittsburgh and/or other teams also are found guilty I'd think there'd be enough outcry to get the ball rolling. Nothing like a good scandal to make people who otherwise wouldn't care demand change.

Boston was already found guilty, Atlanta is found guilty, and Pittsburg has been probably found guilty.  Their will be more, question is how far it goes.

[nicksaviking]

 

I think this is a little overstated (as is the draft). The cap certainly impacts a few guys at the top end, but really doesn't make much of a difference for the vast majority of players. 

 

At least with the International signings they have the freedom to choose their team.

 

I guess my hope is that any overhaul, which may or may not include a draft, would help eliminate the unethical and sometimes dangerous situations that the young Latin players are too often being coerced into. Getting them to the MLB under better and safer circumstances would be my top goal, getting them paid top dollar would be a more distant priority.

[drjim]

 

I guess my hope is that any overhaul, which may or may not include a draft, would help eliminate the unethical and sometimes dangerous situations that the young Latin players are too often being coerced into. Getting them to the MLB under better and safer circumstances would be my top goal, getting them paid top dollar would be a more distant priority.

 

That is a very worthy goal, and I imagine part of the reason that mlb came down so hard on the Braves. They want to try and eliminate some of the shady dealings that occur between teams and trainers.

 

I really don't know if there is an easy solution to limiting the role of trainers and how they control the flow of talent.