Article: Hildenberger (And Gee) Gets The Call

[Mike Sixel]

Congrats on the call up! It is deserved. Also, clearly the secret to his success is spending time in Bend, OR, one of the most beautiful places on the planet.

 

I hope the Twins are patient, and let him pitch up here for some time.

 

On Gee.....this is what happens when you make zero moves to fix the SP in the off season, despite having the worst (or close to it) starting staff in MLB the previous year.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Mike Sixel

[drjim]

Obviously, yes, it's a bigger deal for the Twins. But it wasn't clear that Chargois' injury was serious until the last couple weeks. And the team arguably didn't have as much need for the 40-man spot in April.

In the Twins defense, they still don't have much need for a 40 man roster spot.

[drjim]

It was clear he was injured in April. Frankly, that should have been all that mattered to change his status from optioned to DL. But it wasn't. Once again the Twins organization is bowing down to the almighty dollar. That's why they remain a second rate organization.

This doesn't make much sense. They haven't had a need for a 40 man spot, so why would they give up money and service time for nothing?

[drjim]

Congrats on the call up! It is deserved. Also, clearly the secret to his success is spending time in Bend, OR, one of the most beautiful places on the planet.

 

I hope the Twins are patient, and let him pitch up here for some time.

 

On Gee.....this is what happens when you make zero moves to fix the SP in the off season, despite having the worst (or close to it) starting staff in MLB the previous year.

So now you're advocating they should have signed more veterans last offseason to block younger pitchers for even longer coming into the year?

[Mike Sixel]

 

This doesn't make much sense. They haven't had a need for a 40 man spot, so why would they give up money and service time for nothing?

 

I'm surprised they haven't filed a grievance, since it appears he was hurt in MN. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It was clear he was injured in April.  Frankly, that should have been all that mattered to change his status from optioned to DL.  But it wasn't.  Once again the Twins organization is bowing down to the almighty dollar.  That's why they remain a second rate organization.

It wasn't clear that Chargois was injured when they optioned him.  He even made a couple appearances in AAA before he hit the DL there.  That's a bit different case than most guys who have options rescinded.  I wouldn't jump to blame the Twins here, it may not really be possible to do this.

 

I don't think it's likely, but hypothetically, if Chargois did get service time for the entire 2017 season, he still wouldn't be arbitration eligible until after the 2019 season at the earliest.  And he would still have 2 minor league options years remaining after this season, meaning we could option him back to the minors in 2018 and even 2019 if we so desired and potentially push back that arb timeline further (although he'd be 27-28 years old by then, and his arb salary is likely negligible if he's getting optioned those seasons).

[Mike Sixel]

 

So now you're advocating they should have signed more veterans last offseason to block younger pitchers for even longer coming into the year?

 

I don't want to derail this thread. 

[drjim]

I'm surprised they haven't filed a grievance, since it appears he was hurt in MN.

Maybe, but he also never let them know he was hurt trying to win a spot out of spring.

 

And he did reinjure himself since the original spring training injury.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

In the Twins defense, they still don't have much need for a 40 man roster spot.

True.  Although in relative terms, it's a slightly greater need now than before, but yeah, if not Haley, then Breslow is still a pretty obvious cut candidate.  And Gee likely will be too after our doubleheader next Saturday.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Maybe, but he also never let them know he was hurt trying to win a spot out of spring.

And he did reinjure himself since the original spring training injury.

 

right, we don't know....but if I'm him, I at least think about it. Especially with his injury history, it might be some of his real pay.

 

It kind of reinforces the thought that trying to play thru an arm injury (or any) for a pitcher is a bad idea....

[drjim]

I don't want to derail this thread.

Seems like a relevant point with Gee now getting the call.

 

Signing another vet starter in the spring made sense, but the cost would be pushing Berrios and Mejia further down the depth chart coming in, and also not giving May first crack at a spot in the rotation.

 

The front office really only had two options. Sign a vet and push prospects back or backfill with minor league signings and scrambling when it blows up. It's the consequence of mediocre pitching in the system they inherited.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I'm surprised they haven't filed a grievance, since it appears he was hurt in MN. 

It's not really clear.  Chargois was optioned on March 24.  He was inactive for the first ~10 days of the minor league season, can't remember the exact timeline and reporting on his health from that period, but he made two relatively successful appearances there before his current malady was confirmed on April 28.  If that met the standard of a grievance, I think we'd see a whole ton of them.

 

I thought Alex Meyer had a much better case last year, when he was optioned and was never deemed healthy enough to pitch until he was traded almost 3 months later.

[drjim]

right, we don't know....but if I'm him, I at least think about it. Especially with his injury history, it might be some of his real pay.

 

It kind of reinforces the thought that trying to play thru an arm injury (or any) for a pitcher is a bad idea....

Plus, if he shut it down earlier and didn't try and pitch through it, he might be healthy by now.

 

It's just rarely black and white at the moment, between injury and soreness.

[drjim]

True. Although in relative terms, it's a slightly greater need now than before, but yeah, if not Haley, then Breslow is still a pretty obvious cut candidate. And Gee likely will be too after our doubleheader next Saturday.

Turley, Wimmers, Haley in addition to Breslow. Still some guys to go if needed.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The front office really only had two options. Sign a vet and push prospects back or backfill with minor league signings and scrambling when it blows up. It's the consequence of mediocre pitching in the system they inherited.

They could have done like the Rangers -- sign Gee to a minor league deal around opening day and call him up for long relief or a spot start later.  Then cut him or keep him as needed going forward.  Frankly he could have been on the roster for the last 2 months and been more useful than Breslow (admittedly a low bar to clear).

 

Seems like we hitched our cart to the wrong horses a bit in Vogelsong and Tepesch (and of course Breslow).

[Mike Sixel]

 

Seems like a relevant point with Gee now getting the call.

Signing another vet starter in the spring made sense, but the cost would be pushing Berrios and Mejia further down the depth chart coming in, and also not giving May first crack at a spot in the rotation.

The front office really only had two options. Sign a vet and push prospects back or backfill with minor league signings and scrambling when it blows up. It's the consequence of mediocre pitching in the system they inherited.

 

I would have put Hughes in the bullpen, and signed a FA starter. I said something similar before the season, that I did not think Hughes would make it as a starter this year, and that they should move him to the bullpen.

 

I, not being a FO person, so not knowing every possible option, would have probably also signed different AAA types. but since I don't spend all my time looking at AAA types, I couldn't tell you who.

 

We know that teams need 8-10 starters a year. They did not line up 8-10 starters before the season, unless people thought Hughes could be a starter. Obviously losing May hurt.

 

They also failed to trade Dozier. Rightly or wrongly, they did not turn their 1 legit asset they could afford to trade into anything for the future. 

[yarnivek1972]

 

It wasn't clear that Chargois was injured when they optioned him.  He even made a couple appearances in AAA before he hit the DL there.  That's a bit different case than most guys who have options rescinded.  I wouldn't jump to blame the Twins here, it may not really be possible to do this.

 

I don't think it's likely, but hypothetically, if Chargois did get service time for the entire 2017 season, he still wouldn't be arbitration eligible until after the 2019 season at the earliest.  And he would still have 2 minor league options years remaining after this season, meaning we could option him back to the minors in 2018 and even 2019 if we so desired and potentially push back that arb timeline further (although he'd be 27-28 years old by then, and his arb salary is likely negligible if he's getting optioned those seasons).

 

 

No, he did not.  He made two appearances in late April (20th and 25th - more than two weeks after the first game of the season) because they thought he was ready.  If he had been on the MLB DL, they would have been considered rehab appearances.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Turley, Wimmers, Haley in addition to Breslow. Still some guys to go if needed.

I was already assuming Wimmers was gone, and I mentioned Haley (I get cutting losses, but wasting all these months on him for absolutely nothing would hurt a bit).  Turley would get claimed, which might not be a big deal, but I think it would be premature before we've given him a real bullpen trial at Rochester first.

 

Breslow is the obvious guy to everybody but the FO, but beyond that, we don't have quite as many obvious cut candidates as two months ago (Danny Santana and Michael Tonkin, plus O'Rourke to the 60-day DL).  Although Palka is moving toward that point, for me.  Not enough of a need yet to call the league office about weird DL machinations with Chargois, of course!

[drjim]

They could have done like the Rangers -- sign Gee to a minor league deal around opening day and call him up for long relief or a spot start later. Then cut him or keep him as needed going forward. Frankly he could have been on the roster for the last 2 months and been more useful than Breslow (admittedly a low bar to clear).

 

Seems like we hitched our cart to the wrong horses a bit in Vogelsong and Tepesch (and of course Breslow).

Yes, they did sign minor league guys and they were the wrong ones. You dip in that pool the results are likely to be poor, as we have seen. Getting value out of minor league signings is the exception.

 

I don't think citing Gee is much of a change from what they actually did.

 

Just saying "they should have done more to fix the rotation" while also demanding they create space for prospects is so lame and contradictory, but of course so remarkably consistent in its own impressive way.

 

(And I realize that you specifically are not saying this)

[drjim]

I would have put Hughes in the bullpen, and signed a FA starter. I said something similar before the season, that I did not think Hughes would make it as a starter this year, and that they should move him to the bullpen.

 

I, not being a FO person, so not knowing every possible option, would have probably also signed different AAA types. but since I don't spend all my time looking at AAA types, I couldn't tell you who.

 

We know that teams need 8-10 starters a year. They did not line up 8-10 starters before the season, unless people thought Hughes could be a starter. Obviously losing May hurt.

 

They also failed to trade Dozier. Rightly or wrongly, they did not turn their 1 legit asset they could afford to trade into anything for the future.

The vet signing and Hughes bullpen is a good option, would have played out ok anyways.

 

But outside if that, trading Dozier for an injured AAA starter and signing better pitchers to minor league deals would not have worked, I don't think they really exist. Relievers yes, starters almost non-existant.

 

They went into the season with 7 guys and some minor league deals amd a wildcard in Haley. They maybe could have added another starter by pushing Hughes to the pen, but that would have been giving up Haley.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

No, he did not.  He made two appearances in late April (20th and 25th - more than two weeks after the first game of the season) because they thought he was ready.  If he had been on the MLB DL, they would have been considered rehab appearances.  

Those appearances came before he hit the minor league DL, just as I stated.  I also admitted his missed the first ~12 days of the minor league season -- Rochester's first game played was April 8, and Chargois debuted on April 20  -- but he did not hit the DL during that time so it's quite possible the injury was still changing/developing.

 

I'm not familiar with the timeline of his health reports from March 24 through April 28 -- there could be evidence there for a grievance, but I'm not sure the presence of such evidence is likely.  Players don't undergo medical evaluations when they are optioned -- if he pitched at all in minor league camp after that, he probably wouldn't have a case, even if he hadn't appeared in those two AAA games.  We all know that "injured" isn't really a binary status in real-world actual health, but for the purposes of rosters and transactions, it pretty much is.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The vet signing and Hughes bullpen is a good option, would have played out ok anyways.

But outside if that, trading Dozier for an injured AAA starter and signing better pitchers to minor league deals would not have worked, I don't think they really exist. Relievers yes, starters almost non-existant.

They went into the season with 7 guys and some minor league deals amd a wildcard in Haley. They maybe could have added another starter by pushing Hughes to the pen, but that would have been giving up Haley.

 

No idea why they get a pass on teh Haley thing. He's a non-factor, that they played games to get, and not spend money to do so. Losing Haley means nothing to this team, or any team, imo. He also took up valuable 25 man roster space, on a team desperate for pitching of any value/use.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Mike Sixel

[yarnivek1972]

None of what you say change the fact that Chargois was obviously injured at the start of the season. If he wasn't hurt, he would have pitched. Chargois isn't a doctor. He's not necesarily going to know the difference between pain and injury.

[rhaggstrom]

Breslow cut, Wimmers waived, Adrianza to the DL. That's two 40-man spots open

 

Hildenberger, Gee and Granite up. Only need two 40-man spots.

[drjim]

No idea why they get a pass on teh Haley thing. He's a non-factor, that they played games to get, and not spend money to do so. Losing Haley means nothing to this team, or any team, imo. He also took up valuable 25 man roster space, on a team desperate for pitching of any value/use.

I'm not sure I'm giving them a pass. They took a shot om the guy and looks like it provided no benefit.

 

The front office has not been flawless in their decisions obviously. But there were also working with terrible pitching depth, some bad contracts, and the need to break in some prospects. Did limit the options a little. Still not an excuse for Belisle and Breslow tho.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Yes, they did sign minor league guys and they were the wrong ones. You dip in that pool the results are likely to be poor, as we have seen. Getting value out of minor league signings is the exception.

I don't think citing Gee is much of a change from what they actually did.

While the returns are generally modest and often non-existent, I think there is some skill involved in minor league free agency.  If Vogelsong was uninterested in any kind of minor league assignment, he was probably a bad idea from day 1.  People often say how "low risk" such moves are, because they don't involve much money or actual regular season roster spots, but minor league signings/invites are not truly unlimited.  Vogelsong's spot could have gone to a better player (Yusmeiro Petit?) or at least one who offered more flexibility for a minor league assignment like Gee.

 

And I think Gee was a better option than Tepesch, considering the role they were asked to fill.  Gee has been consistently mediocre for awhile now, while Tepesch has less experience, had a 4.0 K/9 in his last MLB season of 2014, missed all of 2015, and returned with a 4.8 K/9 in AAA in 2016.

 

And of course Breslow, whose signing I supported at the time, but probably not if I knew they were fine with him sucking up a short relief mop-up spot indefinitely...

Edited June 23, 2017 by spycake

[drjim]

None of what you say change the fact that Chargois was obviously injured at the start of the season. If he wasn't hurt, he would have pitched. Chargois isn't a doctor. He's not necesarily going to know the difference between pain and injury.

He pitched through most of spring training, disclosed his pain soon after he was optioned.

 

Should the team automatically know the difference between injury, soreness, and just poor performance for someone with minimal track record?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

None of what you say change the fact that Chargois was obviously injured at the start of the season. If he wasn't hurt, he would have pitched. Chargois isn't a doctor. He's not necesarily going to know the difference between pain and injury.

That's all fine and likely true, but it's also all likely meaningless in terms of MLB rules and roster status.  The first stages of injury are often not retroactively actionable.

[drjim]

Thanks for that last sentence!

 

While the returns are generally modest and often non-existent, I think there is some skill involved in minor league free agency. If Vogelsong was uninterested in any kind of minor league assignment, he was probably a bad idea from day 1. People often say how "low risk" such moves are, because they don't involve much money or actual regular season roster spots, but minor league signings/invites are not truly unlimited. Vogelsong's spot could have gone to a better player (Yusmeiro Petit?) or at least one who offered more flexibility for a minor league assignment like Gee.

 

And I think Gee was a better option than Tepesch, considering the role they were asked to fill. Gee has been consistently mediocre for awhile now, while Tepesch has less experience, had a 4.0 K/9 in his last MLB season of 2014, missed all of 2015, and returned with a 4.8 K/9 in AAA in 2016.

 

And of course Breslow, whose signing I supported at the time, but probably not if I knew they were fine with him sucking up a short relief mop-up spot indefinitely...

They have Gee now, so we shall see.

 

I always saw Vogelsong as day 1 insurance, possible recovery of (minimal) value, not longer term depth.

 

The Twins had a pretty clear first 7. That does impact somewhat the type of minor league signing you can make. Tepesch types are what you get.

[Tibs]

Nice!