POTUS Donald Trump

[Bark's Lounge]

 

She went into a thriving urban DC school and basically called the teachers lazy and waiting to be told what to do.

Being an educator, does this kind of news sink your ship and make you question your part in the process or does it charge your batteries and make you want to resist? I know there is only so much you can do, and it is out of your control.

 

Based on years of reading your posts, I think I know you to be a passionate educator, who cares tremendously about your students and wants to prepare them to the greatest extent for the next step.

 

If that's the case, and I think it is, hats off to you for doing this very under appreciated service to our younger citizens. I think I can speak for everyone on that.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Being an educator, does this kind of news sink your ship and make you question your part in the process or does it charge your batteries and make you want to resist? I know there is only so much you can do, and it is out of your control.

 

It's deflating.  This profession is such a punching bag, mostly from the right.  But I've heard parents of all persuasions that think they can do the job better.  Worse yet, I get paid squat for the work I do and the benefits have gotten progressively worse over the five years I've been doing this.  I get a lot of appreciation and love every year from my students and their parents, that helps, but it doesn't help my own family.  It doesn't pay the bills.  

 

And I keep hearing how we're doing a crappy job while more and more is piled on our plate.  While parents do less and less to support our efforts.  While the government works to make our job harder.   And now this doofus is in charge.

 

I hate hearing about charter schools and the BS they pass off as success.  My classroom takes any and all, not hand selects kids that will make them look good.  I'm tired of seeing black and brown children forgotten, ignored, and deliberately shunted away from the one thing that could change their lives all so that some well off white person doesn't have their kid's school scuttled with diversity.  Or, god help us, their money might get dispersed a little bit to help some children.

 

I watch kids in homogenuous countries with different rules about special education getting propped up as "better" than American kids.  Even while our kids do more at younger ages than ever before.  And continue to lead the world in innovation, creativity, and so many other things.  I'm tired of a test being used to determine if a 9 year old should get to advance with his/her class.  I'm tired of schools being punished financially because, on one day, their students weren't up to standard.  

 

I could go on, but I'm deflated.  I'll always work hard for the 30ish kids in my charge for a year, but it gets harder and harder not to look elsewhere.  You know, a job where I could take a sick day when I'm sick without adding 4 hours of work to my plate.  A job where I'm paid a livable wage.  A job where my benefits and perks aren't constantly being rolled back.  

 

But I am fighting back, Jeff Flake (my state senator now, here in the pit that is Arizona.  Or as I call it "Arid Mississippi") has heard from me numerous times.  I plan to do more as I learn more about this place, but it's hard to generate a lot of enthusiasm to fight when the hill seems so steep.  Maybe DeVos will get some people on our side again.  

 

I mean, I'd love to make every American try for a week what I do.  I imagine teacher salaries would triple by the end of it once people realize what it entails.  Now I'm rambling....

[PseudoSABR]

Excellent take on the enemies of the people from the Dallas Morning News.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I hate hearing about charter schools and the BS they pass off as success.  My classroom takes any and all, not hand selects kids that will make them look good.  I'm tired of seeing black and brown children forgotten, ignored, and deliberately shunted away from the one thing that could change their lives all so that some well off white person doesn't have their kid's school scuttled with diversity.  Or, god help us, their money might get dispersed a little bit to help some children.

 

I watch kids in homogenuous countries with different rules about special education getting propped up as "better" than American kids.  Even while our kids do more at younger ages than ever before.  And continue to lead the world in innovation, creativity, and so many other things.  I'm tired of a test being used to determine if a 9 year old should get to advance with his/her class.  I'm tired of schools being punished financially because, on one day, their students weren't up to standard.  

Amen.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

It's deflating.  This profession is such a punching bag, mostly from the right.  But I've heard parents of all persuasions that think they can do the job better.  Worse yet, I get paid squat for the work I do and the benefits have gotten progressively worse over the five years I've been doing this.  I get a lot of appreciation and love every year from my students and their parents, that helps, but it doesn't help my own family.  It doesn't pay the bills.  

 

And I keep hearing how we're doing a crappy job while more and more is piled on our plate.  While parents do less and less to support our efforts.  While the government works to make our job harder.   And now this doofus is in charge.

 

I hate hearing about charter schools and the BS they pass off as success.  My classroom takes any and all, not hand selects kids that will make them look good.  I'm tired of seeing black and brown children forgotten, ignored, and deliberately shunted away from the one thing that could change their lives all so that some well off white person doesn't have their kid's school scuttled with diversity.  Or, god help us, their money might get dispersed a little bit to help some children.

 

I watch kids in homogenuous countries with different rules about special education getting propped up as "better" than American kids.  Even while our kids do more at younger ages than ever before.  And continue to lead the world in innovation, creativity, and so many other things.  I'm tired of a test being used to determine if a 9 year old should get to advance with his/her class.  I'm tired of schools being punished financially because, on one day, their students weren't up to standard.  

 

I could go on, but I'm deflated.  I'll always work hard for the 30ish kids in my charge for a year, but it gets harder and harder not to look elsewhere.  You know, a job where I could take a sick day when I'm sick without adding 4 hours of work to my plate.  A job where I'm paid a livable wage.  A job where my benefits and perks aren't constantly being rolled back.  

 

But I am fighting back, Jeff Flake (my state senator now, here in the pit that is Arizona.  Or as I call it "Arid Mississippi") has heard from me numerous times.  I plan to do more as I learn more about this place, but it's hard to generate a lot of enthusiasm to fight when the hill seems so steep.  Maybe DeVos will get some people on our side again.  

 

I mean, I'd love to make every American try for a week what I do.  I imagine teacher salaries would triple by the end of it once people realize what it entails.  Now I'm rambling....

That sucks and I am familiar with it.

 

My wife was a special ed teacher for a decade. She worked in one district at the beginning of her career for 10 years, 6 of which she was a paraprofessional and 4 where she was a teacher. She was on the fast track there, but a principal retired, and they hired a bat **** crazy person as the principal to replace the retired one, it was the year that things went to hell. This principal was crazy and liked to play games with her staff. If my wife made it through that year, she would have been tenured, but she was let go.

 

She then worked for a Charter School for 5 years, and that operation was such a mess, after the 4th year, she had a system collapse and spiraled into a deep depression... it was ugly and forever damaging.

 

My wife went on to work as a SE teacher one more year for the charter school and she quit to go onto working as a SE teacher at another public school, but she called it quits after one year. The damage was done. In reality, she was working as the Special Ed director at the charter school. My wife liked working with the kids. The red tape and politics were just too much.

 

My wife's specialty is working with kids with autism. She is now a Behavioral Therapist at a private institution working with teenage adolescents with Autism. She loves it and is greatly admired for her work.

 

It was a financial loss and great benefits loss though, and I don't have anything all that good. So I have been scrambling to figure out a new plan for me. It has to be figured out.

[TheLeviathan]

I have great admiration for special education teachers and also pity.  Even in my five years I've seen their role change from working with kids with learning challenges to basically policing out of control behaviors.  

I've thought about that role because of my own history working with special needs children, but the BS they are put through would force me out of education for sure.  

 

Also, as an aside, my wife does the same work.  She is a BCBA with autistic children.  She also loves it, plus she's far better compensated than if she took her considerable skills into a school building.

[Brock Beauchamp]

DeVos is yet another garbage human being in an administration full of garbage human beings.

 

Teaching shouldn't be a sacrifice. That's a good place to start with "education reform".

[DaveW]

The public schools by and large across the country are a joke. Both Libs and reasonable repubs have ignored it for too long, which I think has directly lead us to the worst case scenario of DeVos running, gutting and destroying the show.

 

I feel really bad currently for anyone who has school aged children currently and not any options. It could be a tough 3-4 years for the edu department.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The public schools by and large across the country are a joke. Both Libs and reasonable repubs have ignored it for too long, which I think has directly lead us to the worst case scenario of DeVos running, gutting and destroying the show.

I feel really bad currently for anyone who has school aged children currently and not any options. It could be a tough 3-4 years for the edu department.

 

I disagree quite strongly.  That false narrative is a huge part of what has led to DeVos getting as far as she has.

[DaveW]

I disagree quite strongly. That false narrative is a huge part of what has led to DeVos getting as far as she has.

Well they are. The US loses ground in "country standing" year by year when it comes to various disciplines.

 

I was a product of the public school system as well, I lived in 6 separate states (and thus school systems growing up) they all have their issues. Now I live in the best city in the world, yet I would never send my kids to public schools here because they are a joke.

 

Something is wrong with that. Teachers unions IMO share a boatload of the blame, it allows terrible teachers to continue to have a secured job. I'd say that 75% of the teachers I had growing up were terrible, I'd guess that is likely the same number across the board.

 

They should reward good teachers and fire bad ones, instead it's all about "experience and tenure" it sucks and it's why we are terrible across the board in education compared to other countries.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I've long believed tenure should be swapped for a big ol' guaranteed pay raise.

 

I don't like the idea of people being guaranteed a job simply because they worked the job for X amount of time but I'm not too riled up about tenure. It's a trade-off for paying teachers like crap.

 

Fix the pay, negotiate a few concessions, and I think we see an uptick in teacher quality. Not that I believe teachers are bad today but as I said earlier, teaching shouldn't be a sacrifice.

 

For example, I would never consider teaching. Not that I'd necessarily make a good teacher but I'm not going to sacrifice pay, hours, and money out of my own pocket to do so.

 

Teaching should be competitive with other professional disciplines but it's not... And until it is, the teacher pool is going to be limited only to those who wish to dedicate an inordinate amount of time and sacrifice their financial quality of life to help children.

 

It's a noble thing to do but there's absolutely no ****ing reason it has to be that way.

[DaveW]

Yup very well said Brock. The poor pay is what causes a bunch of folks that WOULD be good teachers to not even consider it in the first place.

 

Again, 75% or so definitely fall in the:

 

Those that can: do

Those that can't: teach

 

Bucket.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well they are. The US loses ground in "country standing" year by year when it comes to various disciplines.

I was a product of the public school system as well, I lived in 6 separate states (and thus school systems growing up) they all have their issues. Now I live in the best city in the world, yet I would never send my kids to public schools here because they are a joke.

Something is wrong with that. Teachers unions IMO share a boatload of the blame, it allows terrible teachers to continue to have a secured job. I'd say that 75% of the teachers I had growing up were terrible, I'd guess that is likely the same number across the board.

They should reward good teachers and fire bad ones, instead it's all about "experience and tenure" it sucks and it's why we are terrible across the board in education compared to other countries.

 

Well, some of what you're saying is just flat wrong.  When we compare countries we compare apples and oranges.  Our country's diversity makes the comparison flawed from the start.  Almost no one in Finland shows up hungry or without a home.  Most of the challenges people perceive are part of our education system are actually socio-economic.  Research has shown strong correlation between home socio-economics and educational success.  Our public schools can certainly improve, but comparing us to some white bread European country overlooks all the challenges that education has to oversee in this country that others don't deal with.

 

So, sure, by some half baked tests you can say that.  By every other measure of the way our children go out and affect the world?  We're still kicking ass and taking names.

 

As for the rest of this misguided rant, I've worked in education for 5 years.  80-90% of my colleagues are amazing educators.  Your rant feeds the very issues that drive down teacher pay.  Why increase the pay of people who are 75% crappy at their job?  Everytime someone like you repeats nonsense like that it makes it harder to reward good teachers.  (Which the majority are, we don't sacrifice so much so we can be bad at our jobs.  God knows the pay and benefits don't keep us here)

 

I've been outspoken about how I think unions have gone astray on all fronts, but your post is drivel.  And it's factually inaccurate to boot.

[ashbury]

Our three kids had uniformly good experience with public schools and the teachers therein, in both Minnesota and (low tax) Nevada. I saw nothing that looked so broken that the system needed to be upended.

[DaveW]

Minnesota has good public schools, as does Nevada I believe. In fact one of my best friends wife is a teacher in Nevada, and she speaks pretty highly of it. And while Nevada is low taxed, keep in mind they have a treasure trove of tax income coming in from the hotels and casinos, so it works!

 

Minnesota is not the norm though, I went through the public school systems in: Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas and South Carolina and all were dumpster fires (and we even lived in one of the bet districts each time) (Washington was good, Montana was Ok)

 

New York City is a disaster, a lot of that reason is because of the unions.

 

Listen I respect GOOD teachers who make the sacrifice, but from my experience the majority of my teachers in those bad states were either:

 

1. Lazy

2. Dumb

3. Both

 

Again: Minnesota does a damn fine job though, along with a few other states. The majority of states however do NOT. And our math and science scores alone prove this.

 

I stand by my "rant" earlier: 75% of my teachers were worthless and I would have been better off learning on my own. In fact I was better off doing independent learning, instead of doing the pointless tasks some of those idiots (75%) were having us do.

[TheLeviathan]

Repeating that made up 75% number only undermines what you say you want to accomplish.

[DaveW]

Repeating that made up 75% number only undermines what you say you want to accomplish.

Lot of fat to be cut in bad school districts and states.

 

I maintain my 75% number in re: to schools I went to. College I only disliked 10% of my professors and thought they were lazy tenure folks.

 

Definitely a huge gap between the two.

 

I'm all for paying teachers a livable salary, I think salaries should START at 65k and within 10 years every teacher should be making 110k+

 

That will bring in some decent talent IMO. Instead we are paying a lot of them borderline minimum wage in several states. It's hard to attract talent that wayx

[TheLeviathan]

Most of America will buy your phone 75% and laugh at the very idea of doubling teacher salaries.....because they believe 3/4 deserve to be fired, not given a raise.

[DaveW]

Most of America will buy your phone 75% and laugh at the very idea of doubling teacher salaries.....because they believe 3/4 deserve to be fired, not given a raise.

I would fire a lot of them. Or if I don't fire them I would give them a kick in the ass to make them worthwhile. Bring in better talent and better teachers.

[Pardon My Dinger]

Having graduated from college in the past 10 years, I can attest that teaching is no more than a back up plan for a lot of students. So, that's not an ideal situation.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I would fire a lot of them. Or if I don't fire them I would give them a kick in the ass to make them worthwhile. Bring in better talent and better teachers.

 

How many people will support "kicking them in the ass" by doubling their salary?

 

C'mon Dave.  Think.

[Pardon My Dinger]

How many people will support "kicking them in the ass" by doubling their salary?

 

C'mon Dave. Think.

Yeah, it's less about bringing in talented people, and more about inviting them in because the water's more than fine.

[ashbury]

And while Nevada is low taxed, keep in mind they have a treasure trove of tax income coming in from the hotels and casinos, so it works!

Not to get off onto a tangent, but that is a very old and out of date notion. Nevada has no state lottery (which many states use to fund education), thanks to casino lobbying against it. Also, gambling is widespread now and other states have sucked the life out of Nevada's one-time financial advantage.

 

Funding of a state government is complicated, and Nevada does their's differently than most, but it's not accurate to think Nevada's schools are well funded. I have no reason to trust or distrust the following link, which places Nevada 45th among states for per-student funding for 2014, except that it's in line with what I always heard: Nevada is ranked low in the things you want to be ranked high in, and ranked high in the things you want to be ranked low in. http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html

 

I don't know how to account for our good experience with the teachers. And yet, it was real.

[Bark's Lounge]

I know a lot of teachers, who are passionate, caring, and tremendously intelligent individuals. They would be disappointed to read some of the comments on this subject here.

 

It is a thankless job and the only reward is from seeing how you positively affected a students life and development. They don't expect any pats on back.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yeah, it's less about bringing in talented people, and more about inviting them in because the water's more than fine.

 

Right, and why would anyone sign up for a job when huge swaths of the country say inane things like "75% of teachers are terrible"?

 

Teacher salaries are low, in part, because people are walking around saying "75% of teachers suck" and they don't deserve to be paid more than a pittance.  

 

There are a lot of things that go in to making the water fine.  We can start by paying teachers a good wage and parents start getting their **** together a little bit.  It'd help if I could be 90% teacher and 10% parent and not borderline 50-50.  Follow that up with a little bit of shared sacrifice on this from all parties and we could turn some things around.  We have far too many rich white people (of all political persuasions) thinking about education selfishly.  Fixing that could go a long, long way too.

[DaveW]

Right, and why would anyone sign up for a job when huge swaths of the country say inane things like "75% of teachers are terrible"?

 

Teacher salaries are low, in part, because people are walking around saying "75% of teachers suck" and they don't deserve to be paid more than a pittance.

 

There are a lot of things that go in to making the water fine. We can start by paying teachers a good wage and parents start getting their **** together a little bit. It'd help if I could be 90% teacher and 10% parent and not borderline 50-50. Follow that up with a little bit of shared sacrifice on this from all parties and we could turn some things around. We have far too many rich white people (of all political persuasions) thinking about education selfishly. Fixing that could go a long, long way too.

I don't think 75% are terrible, just that 75% are Terrible in the states I lived in (I also said Montana and Washington were quite good overall!)

 

I think that we need to revamp high school overall quite a bit, and prepare our youngsters with training that will actually help them. Not everyone needs to goto college, not everyone needs to take 4 years of calculus etc

 

Our school systems should be set up to let the student choose their own path/education somewhat.

 

Also if you pay teachers more you will get better candidates, that's just the reality of it.

[D. Hocking]

Call me cynical, but when you need to read the Our Father from notes -- you probably really don't pray that much and are just doing it at this point to snow your deplorables.  FYI - don't read the comments.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDmUy31B2Sw

 

 

[DaveW]

Not to get off onto a tangent, but that is a very old and out of date notion. Nevada has no state lottery (which many states use to fund education), thanks to casino lobbying against it. Also, gambling is widespread now and other states have sucked the life out of Nevada's one-time financial advantage.

 

Funding of a state government is complicated, and Nevada does their's differently than most, but it's not accurate to think Nevada's schools are well funded. I have no reason to trust or distrust the following link, which places Nevada 45th among states for per-student funding for 2014, except that it's in line with what I always heard: Nevada is ranked low in the things you want to be ranked high in, and ranked high in the things you want to be ranked low in. http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html

 

I don't know how to account for our good experience with the teachers. And yet, it was real.

That is all really interesting, thanks for sharing!

 

I actually looked to start a business/office in downtown Vegas in the last couple years, one of the big benefits I saw were the low taxes and subsidies the state would give you if you hired in market talent (universities)

 

It's not exactly related, but it seemed to be a good program at the time in order to build up a tech industry. I know Tony Hsieh has done a lot of good things.

[DaveW]

I know a lot of teachers, who are passionate, caring, and tremendously intelligent individuals. They would be disappointed to read some of the comments on this subject here.

 

It is a thankless job and the only reward is from seeing how you positively affected a students life and development. They don't expect any pats on back.

I know a lot too who qualify that, but I also know a lot who aren't good/hard working and are basically lazy. At some point maybe they were good/hard working, but the union system of rewarding tenure rather then quality of work beats people down eventually. Ditto with poor pay, it just beats people down. It's not a coincidence that most of my "good" teachers were under 35 and most of the ones who were terrible were over 50.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't think 75% are terrible, just that 75% are Terrible in the states I lived in (I also said Montana and Washington were quite good overall!)

I think that we need to revamp high school overall quite a bit, and prepare our youngsters with training that will actually help them. Not everyone needs to goto college, not everyone needs to take 4 years of calculus etc

Our school systems should be set up to let the student choose their own path/education somewhat.

Also if you pay teachers more you will get better candidates, that's just the reality of it.

 

I don't disagree with any of that, there are some structural changes needed.  But you're part of the problem, based on your comments here, for what needs to happen to fix that.

 

You, without even having had a child yet, have declared you'll never put them in a public school.  Like many urban whites, you choose to either fight tooth and nail to keep your money in your local (likely mostly white) school or you fight for vouchers so you can take your kid to a private school.

 

The only way we'll be able to afford to pay teachers more, offer a wider variety of high school options, and restructure curriculums is if we get rid of the idea that schools should be run locally.  And that you, as a citizen, gets to choose how your education dollars are spent.  Or where your kid goes to school.  Unless we have 100% buy-in (like all of the countries you clung to earlier based on flawed testing), we're not going to effect those changes.  And the sad thing is that most Americans think far too selfishly and locally about education when they should view it for what it is - a foundation, a necessary cornerstone of a capitalist, democratic republic.