Paps file grievance against Nats

[jimmer]

Harper was given a meatball pitch that he'd normally destroy, he didn't.  He was mad at himself, jogged out of the box and would have been safe if it was dropped (and the chances of it being dropped was less than 1%).  Same result as if he had hustled except maybe by going out, he ends up halfway between 1st and 2nd and then thrown out at 2B or caught in a rundown.  Or maybe he pulls a hammy needless going all out in some faux hustle move that old school rules, and many people who don't get the rigors of playing 162 game schedule, requires.  

 

Justifying someone trying to choke out a teammate cracks me up, especially when forgetting to mention (either on purpose or accident) that the choker (Papelbon) was ticked off that not too long before that, the chokee (Harper), talked about how ridiculous Papelbon's beaning of a batter ( in yet another ridiculous 'old school' necessary move) was.  

 

It was payback, nothing more. The jog, which happens a lot in baseball, was just a good excuse for Paps to preach old school nonsense and to justify (in some peoples' eyes) a vicious attack of a teammate.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I just can't see him doing it right now. The guys I talk with in the Braves organization talk about how distant he's become in the clubhouse. It's about the worst kept secret among those in the game that he wants badly to be a Yankee.

good insight, thanks. The way the Nats treated Bud Black's salary negotiation opened some eyes, I bet. There's seems to be a really good chance Harper signs with the Yankees for a record contract.

[h2oface]

 

Justifying someone trying to choke out a teammate cracks me up, especially when forgetting to mention (either on purpose or accident) that the choker (Papelbon) was ticked off that not too long before that, the chokee (Harper), talked about how ridiculous Papelbon's beaning of a batter ( in yet another ridiculous 'old school' necessary move) was.

 

I don't read where anyone is justifying any behavior. The grievance is the subject, and I think Papelbon has a right to file it, and will win. The video of the event does not show anyone trying to "choke out" anyone. The first posturing move went to the neck, and then to the chest. No choke out. It was all very quick. A lot of pushing and shoving between two bad boys of baseball. Both were contributory to the snap. Both are not setting any examples for being a good teammate. Papelbon went physical first, and was very wrong. Tempers flair when teams lose. No big deal, unless people want to make it one. Silly little fight. Punishment of suspension is fine, the money taken excessive, and not, in my opinion, right, and will not stand up when challenged. I would hope that the team and Papelbon settle it quickly without going through the process and move on, as I will now.

[USAFChief]

He stands a pretty good chance of winning the grievance, IMO. There is precious little precedence for teams suspending players w/o pay. I think the contract stipulates only the league can do that.

 

I'm not a lawyer, don't even play one on TV, so it'd be a first but I could be wrong on this.

[USAFChief]

Harper was given a meatball pitch that he'd normally destroy, he didn't.  He was mad at himself, jogged out of the box and would have been safe if it was dropped (and the chances of it being dropped was less than 1%).  Same result as if he had hustled except maybe by going out, he ends up halfway between 1st and 2nd and then thrown out at 2B or caught in a rundown.  Or maybe he pulls a hammy needless going all out in some faux hustle move that old school rules, and many people who don't get the rigors of playing 162 game schedule, requires.  

 

Justifying someone trying to choke out a teammate cracks me up, especially when forgetting to mention (either on purpose or accident) that the choker (Papelbon) was ticked off that not too long before that, the chokee (Harper), talked about how ridiculous Papelbon's beaning of a batter ( in yet another ridiculous 'old school' necessary move) was.  

 

It was payback, nothing more. The jog, which happens a lot in baseball, was just a good excuse for Paps to preach old school nonsense and to justify (in some peoples' eyes) a vicious attack of a teammate.

Justifying choking someone is no more humorous to me than justifying not running out a pop up.

[DaveW]

 

.  I, personally, would rather not have players on our team who go out of their way to intentionally injure other players.  Makes it harder for me, personally, to root for players like that.

Honest question: Did you root for Hunter this year? Because he went out of his way to intentionally injure other players multiple times:

 

1. Throwing a punch at Morneau and hitting Punto. Punch > Quick Choke damage wise.

2. Throwing a ball back at a pitcher after getting hit.

[DaveW]

 

 

Harper probably should have run the ball out. I agree. Harper was loafing, and should have run the ball out. Molitor and Ryan might bench and demote and then trade someone like Aaron Hicks for doing something like loafing or not paying attention, and even if it is just spring training and not a real regular season game that really counts. I think Papelbon was right for telling Harper so. Williams should have, no? Everyone in the dugout probably should have told him so. A team player might have responded.... "You are right. I should have run it out. You never know what can happen. Next time I will bring it. Thanks for caring and getting in my face about it."  Sure, eh? That's gonna happen. I think the games served is punishment enough for Papelbon's behavior of losing his temper from what Harper snapped back, and he will and should win his grievance. Washington ought to just settle and do if voluntarily. Why make a further issue of it. Harper was a contributing factor, in behavior and mouth. And it really is no big deal, here.

You bring up a good point, the person who looked the worst in that whole situation wasn't Papelbon or Harper, it was Williams, who had clearly lost the clubhouse/team 100%

 

Papelbon is certainly a douche, but at least he clearly wants to "win", just like AJ, give me a guy like that then some guy who is clearly just in it for the money (A-Rod comes to mind) any day.

[DaveW]

 

 

I just can't see him doing it right now. The guys I talk with in the Braves organization talk about how distant he's become in the clubhouse. It's about the worst kept secret among those in the game that he wants badly to be a Yankee.

 The thing is, he could still become a Yankee with a 6 year opt out clause, I just have a feeling the Nats offer him that 400 million (or very close to one) that he really can't turn down (NTM the pressure from the union to set the bar at 400 million sooner rather than later as well)

The Nats might as well move out of Washington for a third time if they can't lock up Harper long term.

[DaveW]

What is worse?

 

Getting in a fight with a teammate (who has gotten in other fights)

or
Throwing a bat at an umpire (who did nothing aggressive/offensive other than calling a borderline strike)

 

Keep in mind, the Twins decided to trade their best homegrown pitching prospect in 20 years for one of the two....

 

It sort of bugs me when the whole "well the Twins do things the RIGHT way, and bring in the RIGHT players" card gets brought out. The Twins are just like every other team in the league, we have had our share of scum bags over the years.

[jimmer]

 

Justifying choking someone is no more humorous to me than justifying not running out a pop up.

One is committing violence against another human being and was retaliatory cause the guy being choked didn't like the fact that the guy doing the choking beaned a player. The other is not following some old school rule that doesn't hurt anyone nor cost his team anything (since he would have been safe if it had dropped anyway).  

 

I can see how they could be equated.  Cue Bill Engvall.

[jimmer]

 

Honest question: Did you root for Hunter this year? Because he went out of his way to intentionally injure other players multiple times:

 

1. Throwing a punch at Morneau and hitting Punto. Punch > Quick Choke damage wise.

2. Throwing a ball back at a pitcher after getting hit.

I did not root for Hunter, I rooted for the team to win.  Similar to my football team a few years back. They picked up a big time jerk who I never rooted for.  I just rooted for the team.  I find myself rooting less and less for individual players nowadays.  I haven't bought a jersey with a specific player's name on it in a long time.

[Platoon]

maybe the twins could also get milton bradley and albert belle to come out of retirement and solve all of their problems.

Last I heard Milton Bradley had a successful company making board games. I heard he used Albert Belle as his inspiration for Twister? Besides, if you are ove 40, you have to be a former Twin, and a mentor to be offered a contract.

[biggentleben]

You bring up a good point, the person who looked the worst in that whole situation wasn't Papelbon or Harper, it was Williams, who had clearly lost the clubhouse/team 100%

 

Papelbon is certainly a douche, but at least he clearly wants to "win", just like AJ, give me a guy like that then some guy who is clearly just in it for the money (A-Rod comes to mind) any day.

AJ was my biggest screaming "hell no!" move of a rough Braves offseason, but he handled the young pitchers well, and he even attempted to help the future of the team when he walked into the manager's office and insisted they give Christian Bethancourt a real chance to start because they were hurting his development by having him be a platoon-at-most catcher. Say what you will about his antics, but AJ's a guy who had borderline big league ability and got every drop of production he could from that ability over a long career. He's one of the few guys in my lifetime that I can say left it all on the field in this game, and I'm not even one of his fans.

[DaveW]

 

AJ was my biggest screaming "hell no!" move of a rough Braves offseason, but he handled the young pitchers well, and he even attempted to help the future of the team when he walked into the manager's office and insisted they give Christian Bethancourt a real chance to start because they were hurting his development by having him be a platoon-at-most catcher. Say what you will about his antics, but AJ's a guy who had borderline big league ability and got every drop of production he could from that ability over a long career. He's one of the few guys in my lifetime that I can say left it all on the field in this game, and I'm not even one of his fans.

Yup, I am a big fan of his career, going on 19 years now as a major league catcher, that alone deserves a ton of respect.

 

Additionally, AJ has never had any internal "beefs" that I am aware of, does he get under the other teams skin? Sure, but who cares! Michael Jordon was one of the biggest trash talkers of all time (also of note, he was a complete Dick to his teammates) but does any of that tarnish his value?

 

On the personal side of things AJ is married, has two kids and has never been in any legal trouble. Funny how Twins fans can hate him for a little bit of trash talk, yet we still have a street named after a player who abused at least two women, one of which was his own wife.

 

Papelbon likewise has had no personal issues or legal issues come up.

[USAFChief]

One is committing violence against another human being and was retaliatory cause the guy being choked didn't like the fact that the guy doing the choking beaned a player. The other is not following some old school rule that doesn't hurt anyone nor cost his team anything (since he would have been safe if it had dropped anyway).

 

I can see how they could be equated. Cue Bill Engvall.

Running out balls in play is "old school?"

 

Failing to runout balls in play doesn't hurt his team?

 

He knew, when the ball left his bat, the exact timing and placement of a misplay such that if the ball dropped he'd be out at second, but safe at first? He calculated all that in the moment immediately after his bat made contact?

 

Possibly.

 

Or possibly that's all after the fact rationalization to explain away a player who is talented but gets the benefit of the doubt because of talent, not character or play. This wasn't isolated, either. He's been benched for it. An extraordinary step, if you think about it...not one a manager would take lightly or take if there were any question about it.

 

I'd prefer to pay to watch the player who cares too much, than too little. If that makes me old school, so be it.

[Mike Sixel]

we've been over this.......all the actual DATA shows he would have been safe at that pace. It is false hustle to run out that play hard, false hustle that adds NO VALUE to the play for his team, but does actually sometimes result in a pulled hamstring. 

 

There is no after the fact rationalization here at all. none. Anyone that thinks Harper doesn't play hard does not actually watch Nationals' games. 

[TheLeviathan]

Well, I think we're at the root of the problem:

 

People think physical assault is equivalent to jogging during a pop-up.

 

Good lord.  Anyone who thinks there has ever been a player who ALWAYS hustles ever play is delusional.  Guys jog.  Guys sometimes don't even leave the box on a dribbler to the pitcher.  Guys get frustrated with failing in a big spot and jog when they know the force is at second.

 

This happens all the time.  With all players.  The notion that "always hustle!" is even a real thing is utterly preposterous.  What Papelbon did was pure jackassery - trying to make an example out of the best young player on the team because the team was struggling.  

[USAFChief]

we've been over this.......all the actual DATA shows he would have been safe at that pace. It is false hustle to run out that play hard, false hustle that adds NO VALUE to the play for his team, but does actually sometimes result in a pulled hamstring. 

 

There is no after the fact rationalization here at all. none. Anyone that thinks Harper doesn't play hard does not actually watch Nationals' games.

 

There is no actual DATA here Mike. There s conjecture. Nobody can possibly know how far a hitter might advance on an error.

 

IMO, there is no such thing as false hustle. Either you run, or you don't.

 

And in the case of this player, it's not an isolated incident. He had a history. If it were one popup, out of frustration, it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

I understand YMMV, but for me, it irks me. Respect the game. Run the damn thing out.

[USAFChief]

Well, I think we're at the root of the problem:

 

People think physical assault is equivalent to jogging during a pop-up.

 

Good lord.  Anyone who thinks there has ever been a player who ALWAYS hustles ever play is delusional.  Guys jog.  Guys sometimes don't even leave the box on a dribbler to the pitcher.  Guys get frustrated with failing in a big spot and jog when they know the force is at second.

 

This happens all the time.  With all players.  The notion that "always hustle!" is even a real thing is utterly preposterous.  What Papelbon did was pure jackassery - trying to make an example out of the best young player on the team because the team was struggling.

 

I think it's possible to separate the behaviors and recognize Paplebon's asshatery while simultaneously recognizing a lack of effort.

[Mike Sixel]

There is no such thing as false hustle? Well, there's something we won't agree on. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think it's possible to separate the behaviors and recognize Paplebon's asshatery while simultaneously recognizing a lack of effort.

 

If that is a "lack of effort" than every player who has every played professional baseball has shown a "lack of effort" many, many, MANY times.

 

So when it's highlighted it usually has more to do with the accuser than the accused.

[biggentleben]

I shared this at the time, and I'll share it again now. I took a two-week honeymoon this summer in which I saw 10 baseball games across 10 stadiums. Two of those games happened to be Nationals games (one of which was the Scherzer near-perfecto against the Pirates), and when you ask my wife about the players she remembered from the trip, she named Scherzer, Miggy, Wilmer Flores, and Andrelton Simmons by their team name, position, and/or accomplishment in a game on the trip. Bryce Harper she could mention by name along with Matt Harvey.

 

Harper gets a bad rep because people want to find reasons to dislike a guy who's so brash and bold with the media and "disrespects" the game, much like they do with Yasiel Puig and have been doing this offseason with Jose Bautista. Harper may be a lot of things, but to say he doesn't hustle is one of the biggest BS statements anyone can make and tells me that they simply do not watch the guy play. He made multiple plays that impacted the games we saw with his hustle, and that's what my wife remembered, interestingly, not the home run he hit during Scherzer's no-no. He made an impression on her BECAUSE of his hustle, but I also think there will be plenty who don't take the time to watch the guy play the game and just assume the stories are true as well.

[TheLeviathan]

Exactly right.  I bet Harper has more effort than average, just because on one stupid play he knew he was out he jogged doesn't deserve anything.

 

Guys do that all the time.  Kirby Puckett did it all the time.  Paul Molitor did it all the time.  Every guy ever that has grounded to second with two outs and a guy at first has jogged while the infielders (also jogging) make the easy play at second.

 

It's so preposterous to demand constant full speed play as if that actually exists as a real thing.  It never has.  It never will.  

[USAFChief]

I shared this at the time, and I'll share it again now. I took a two-week honeymoon this summer in which I saw 10 baseball games across 10 stadiums. Two of those games happened to be Nationals games (one of which was the Scherzer near-perfecto against the Pirates), and when you ask my wife about the players she remembered from the trip, she named Scherzer, Miggy, Wilmer Flores, and Andrelton Simmons by their team name, position, and/or accomplishment in a game on the trip. Bryce Harper she could mention by name along with Matt Harvey.

 

Harper gets a bad rep because people want to find reasons to dislike a guy who's so brash and bold with the media and "disrespects" the game, much like they do with Yasiel Puig and have been doing this offseason with Jose Bautista. Harper may be a lot of things, but to say he doesn't hustle is one of the biggest BS statements anyone can make and tells me that they simply do not watch the guy play. He made multiple plays that impacted the games we saw with his hustle, and that's what my wife remembered, interestingly, not the home run he hit during Scherzer's no-no. He made an impression on her BECAUSE of his hustle, but I also think there will be plenty who don't take the time to watch the guy play the game and just assume the stories are true as well.

How many are publicly benched over the issue.

 

Did Mat Williams also never watch Harper play?

[biggentleben]

 

How many are publicly benched over the issue.

Did Mat Williams also never watch Harper play?

 

Based on his managing, he likely did not.

[biggentleben]

 

How many are publicly benched over the issue.

Did Mat Williams also never watch Harper play?

 

Quite a few, actually. It's just that many aren't covered like Harper, so when Yoenis Cespedes was given a day off this year for not hustling, it was simply a day off. Kyle Seager had such a day off this year after a game where he notably didn't hustle out a grounder. Brett Gardner was given a day off after a fly ball fell between he and Jacoby Ellsbury that should have been an easy catch for him. Yet, none of those were called into question, and all three even have reputations as being "grinders" and "high effort" players. How a day off is spun doesn't change that it happens to many players in a season, not just Harper.

 

Hell, Hanley Ramirez was pulled from the game and benched by Fredi Gonzalez when both were in Florida, and the backlash from the media and fans cost Gonzalez his job there. That was for effort incredibly more egregious than Harper's in this case or any other I've seen on the field, and yet the manager was the one called into question for being too harsh in that case, mainly because Hanley was considered at the time to be extremely likable, jovial, and "fun" player in the game.

[jimmer]

Hustling is a good thing and isn't old school or new school. When it's not clearly obvious the Ball is going to be caught or when it's a for sure hit, a player should go all out. Sprinting out a fly ball that is caught more than 99% of the time isn't necessary nor is it disrespecting the game if not done. A guy that gets ticked he missed a meatball he usually crushes and jogs first on a routine fly ball is also not disrespecting the game. what is disrespecting the game is what papelbon did.

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

 

Not to mention arrested, and also sued.

 

He's got to be in the top 5 of jerks in the game today, along with A.J.

And chapman...

 

Twins don't need to sign any of these jerks...

[biggentleben]

Craziness is that if Chapman gets suspended, he could end up actually MORE desirable in the trade market. If he misses more than 25 games or so, he'll end up adding another year before he hits free agency, so he may end up having two years of control instead of one.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Craziness is that if Chapman gets suspended, he could end up actually MORE desirable in the trade market. If he misses more than 25 games or so, he'll end up adding another year before he hits free agency, so he may end up having two years of control instead of one.

 

Talk about perverse unintended consequences.