Is it time for a new GM?

[goulik]

I said this before several times, now I will say it again. When you have a bad season, you find someone/something to blame. That blame moves up the chain of command and you make that decision then. I outlined it with these following steps:

 

First 90 loss season-lame Bad luck, the injuries/concussions.We had a good run after all.

Second 90 loss season-BS is gone, bring back TR.Time to rebuild this sinking ship.

Third 90 loss season-Blame the players not the long time coaches and brand new GM, clean house.

Fourth 90 loss season-Sack the coaching staff for not getting it done with the new players

Fifth 90 loss season-TR needs to go, Time to rebuild the sinking ship

Sixth 90 loss season- Blame the players, clean house.

Seventh 90 loss season-Sack the failed coaching staff.

 

But wait, we are not losing in the fifth season where you judge the GM. The Twins are better than anyone expected and next year we are expected to be even better... Awe Sack TR anyway. He should have done better?

 

Really? There is no one to blame because we are over achieving. No, there is no firing going on when you do an honest assessment. Molitor is mentioned in some midseason Manager of the Year discussions and you want to fire the guy that built the house a year before what is advertised as the year we are building for? I don't get it. If we fail to contend next year, I will join you but until then, this is baseball not football, lets be more patient than that! Beides, we still have two days to make your trade...

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

But I think the point being made was, these moves are made by a GM trying to win, not the moves of a GM committed to a rebuild.

But... That doesn't make sense (and I realize it's not your argument). Were the Astros not in rebuild mode because they signed a slew of veterans in 2013 and 2014? IIRC, the Astros signed 4-6 vets between 2013-2014.

 

Rebuilding the farm system and trying to field a less-than-awful MLB team are not mutually exclusive. MLB teams rarely improve by 20 games overnight and not all prospects arrive on the same day. Having a competent core of veterans to ease in the new prospects seems like a sound management strategy to me, even if I don't agree with every single signing.

[goulik]

Having a competent core of veterans to ease in the new prospects seems like a sound management strategy to me, even if I don't agree with every single signing.

And those veterans serve as mentors the young guys need. Sign winners used to winning so that they establish the culture for the new guys.

[twinssouth]

I wonder if Ryan is aware he can make a move before July 31st? (Or at all based on his history)

 

Most of this angst is 15 years in the making and understandably so.

 

 

 

Maybe Ryan is on vacation, you know Salmon fishing in Alaska, no cell phone converage, relaxing, thinking the trade deadline is August 31, not July 31.

[Mike Sixel]

Still waiting for someone to say what the GM has done that has been so awesome in this rebuild.

 

Hughes, May, Santana, that's it for the future, in the time he's been here. Everyone else was already here, or is part of the draft......what exactly has Ryan done to really rebuild this team?

[drjim]

Good luck Linus, this site has become worse than startribune comments, and this is a site that was one of my favorites just a few weeks ago. It's actually really sad. I miss BYTO.

It's like the weather, goes in cycles. When Ryan makes a trade and the Twins take 3 of 4 from Ms people will calm down again.

[drjim]

To further elaborate on my point, I don't know if there's anyone in baseball I'd rather have stewarding a franchise through a rebuilding effort than Terry Ryan. He's cautious, often to a fault, and never falters from looking years, not days, into the future. The steadier the hand, the better for the organization. Baseball moves at a glacial pace in a world that cannot stand things that aren't torn down and rebuilt in minutes. It takes a certain kind of old-world guy to shrug off that pressure and stick with the plan.

 

But now the Twins are emerging from that phase of the rebuild. They're winning ballgames. While I think it's foolish to bet the farm like the Royals have in 2015, some of the conservative nature needs to be cast aside for more proactive approaches to improving the baseball team. As time passes, we need less conservatism and more aggression as the team improves.

 

I don't know if Terry Ryan is the right guy for that phase of the organization but even if he isn't, I greatly appreciate what he has done for the Twins organization twice now (helped rebuild a horrible franchise into something worth watching).

I would say maybe give him a chance? This season is the beginning of something Ryan has never been a part of in his GM tenure. Perhaps he is a up to the task?

 

Probably deserves a little longer than the day before the trade deadline for full judgement.

[drjim]

People praised the Matt Kemp deal? Trading Trea Turner to put Wil Myers in CF? The Melvin BJ Upton trade?

 

I think people were impressed by the Padres' aggressiveness, but I don't know that there was a whole lot of praise involved. Or what praise there was (Norris, Shields, the better Upton, etc) was fully balanced by more iffy moves.

 

I don't think the Jays have gone "all in" that frequently either. The Dickey trade was big, but ultimately for a pretty modest contract. The Reyes part of the Marlins deal was big, but the rest of the deal pretty modest too (like Buehrle). And the FA deals for AJ Burnett and BJ Ryan only seem "all in" compared to Metrodome-era Twins spending.

 

Honestly, outside Reyes/Tulo, the Jays general approach hasn't been much "bigger" than TR in free agency the past couple winters.

But the Padres did something. Isn't that what half the people here want?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I would say maybe give him a chance? This season is the beginning of something Ryan has never been a part of in his GM tenure. Perhaps he is a up to the task?

 

Probably deserves a little longer than the day before the trade deadline for full judgement.

He absolutely deserves a chance, I only doubt whether he'll take that chance and make the necessary adjustments.

 

With that said, it's really hard to look at this roster and like it. So many moved could have been made, no trades necessary. Maybe they wouldn't work. That's okay, there's always the deadline if you try things early enough.

[Mike Sixel]

 

It's like the weather, goes in cycles. When Ryan makes a trade and the Twins take 3 of 4 from Ms people will calm down again.

 

Fair, for many. but, there are some of us that have our doubts about Ryan's ability to be the guy that gets them over the hump. There are all kinds of leaders, and some are great at building, but not finishing. Or good at running things, but not building things. I'm not convinced Ryan is the GM to do it all for this team. I continue to hope to be proven wrong.

[Mike Sixel]

 

But the Padres did something. Isn't that what half the people here want?

 

You really think that people want them to do random stuff, even bad ideas? You really think that is fair?

[drjim]

He absolutely deserves a chance, I only doubt whether he'll take that chance and make the necessary adjustments.

I won't defend him because there is no evidence either way.

 

But that is quite an assumption.

[drjim]

You really think that people want them to do random stuff, even bad ideas? You really think that is fair?

Based on the ideas people propose here on a daily basis, it absolutely is fair.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I won't defend him because there is no evidence either way.

But that is quite an assumption.

 

so, 17 years as GM and no WS appearances, and no big, elite trades is not evidence?

[DaveW]

 

Based on the ideas people propose here on a daily basis, it absolutely is fair.

:rolleyes:

[Craig Arko]

 

Based on the ideas people propose here on a daily basis, it absolutely is fair.

More than fair; it's a moral imperative.

[drjim]

Still waiting for someone to say what the GM has done that has been so awesome in this rebuild.

 

Hughes, May, Santana, that's it for the future, in the time he's been here. Everyone else was already here, or is part of the draft......what exactly has Ryan done to really rebuild this team?

The flip side is he hasn't leaked talent either.

 

Isn't it possible (likely) that he saw a wave of talent coming and wanted to rebuild the infrastructure of the franchise to put them in a position to be successful. That's a huge part of the job of the GM.

[drjim]

so, 17 years as GM and no WS appearances, and no big, elite trades is not evidence?

This is a different world than those 17 years. Half that time was spent cleaning up the messes of other GMs and the rest was spent being hamstrung by low revenue/cheap owner.

 

He is on a different standard now.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I won't defend him because there is no evidence either way.

But that is quite an assumption.

It's really not that big an assumption. He was the GM from 2001-2007, after all. Sure, the Twins didn't have money but they had prospects, lots of 'em.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The flip side is he hasn't leaked talent either.

Isn't it possible (likely) that he saw a wave of talent coming and wanted to rebuild the infrastructure of the franchise to put them in a position to be successful. That's a huge part of the job of the GM.

 

What infrastructure has he rebuilt? He didn't sign Cubans, they have not gone over International slots (maybe this year, unsure), he didn't successfully sign and flip guys. He's made 2 big trades, and signed a bunch of SP. that's about it.......

[DaveW]

 

This is a different world than those 17 years. Half that time was spent cleaning up the messes of other GMs and the rest was spent being hamstrung by low revenue/cheap owner.

He is on a different standard now.

Sounds like some pretty convenient excuses.

Also, Smith wasn't great, but during his tenure he did a TON to rebuild the Twins farm system and it flourished because of a lot of the picks that were made under his reign.

[drjim]

Sounds like some pretty convenient excuses.

Also, Smith wasn't great, but during his tenure he did a TON to rebuild the Twins farm system and it flourished because of a lot of the picks that were made under his reign.

Smith was great except for the epic collapse and franchise in shambles from top to bottom by the time he left.

[DaveW]

 

Smith was great except for the epic collapse and franchise in shambles from top to bottom by the time he left.

Yeah, that whole "lets get aggressive and sign Miguel Sano" really has ruined the franchise.

Would a Ryan lead front office ever have given that much to a Sano? Methinksnot.

Also, Ryan screwed the Twins over when he decided to quit the first time. That's fine if you want to resign/retire, totally fine, but it's a little silly when you are just handed the job again 4 years later without doing anything to earn it.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Smith was great except for the epic collapse and franchise in shambles from top to bottom by the time he left.

 

Uh, that's because the farm had zero talent when he took over. It takes 3-5 years for talent to climb up......that is all on the previous GM, right? If the team was bad when he left, that's 100% on the previous GM, since that's when his top players should be graduating........

[drjim]

What infrastructure has he rebuilt? He didn't sign Cubans, they have not gone over International slots (maybe this year, unsure), he didn't successfully sign and flip guys. He's made 2 big trades, and signed a bunch of SP. that's about it.......

You keep going back to one small part of a GMs job. And it is focused on the straight money side, where he has obvious limitations relative to other franchises.

 

He has also:

Turned over minor league coaches

Brought in a new Farm Director

Overhauled the medical team

Hired a new manager and most of a coaching staff

Enhanced analytics department

 

And this is just a short list of the top of my head

 

You know, created franchise infrastructure.

[drjim]

Yeah, that whole "lets get aggressive and sign Miguel Sano" really has ruined the franchise.

Would a Ryan lead front office ever have given that much to a Sano? Methinksnot.

Also, Ryan screwed the Twins over when he decided to quit the first time. That's fine if you want to resign/retire, totally fine, but it's a little silly when you are just handed the job again 4 years later without doing anything to earn it.

Ryan didn't leave the franchise in the best shape, but there certainly was talent on the roster (a lot of which was squandered in trades).

[drjim]

Uh, that's because the farm had zero talent when he took over. It takes 3-5 years for talent to climb up......that is all on the previous GM, right? If the team was bad when he left, that's 100% on the previous GM, since that's when his top players should be graduating........

Development and management of assets counts for something no?

[DaveW]

 

Ryan didn't leave the franchise in the best shape, but there certainly was talent on the roster (a lot of which was squandered in trades).

Ryan left Bill Smith in a no win scenario with the Johan Santana issue, and he knew a big regression was coming with Cuddyer, Hunter etc all set to leave.

Other than Ramos, who do you blame him trading away?

[drjim]

Ryan left Bill Smith in a no win scenario with the Johan Santana issue, and he knew a big regression was coming with Cuddyer, Hunter etc all set to leave.

Other than Ramos, who do you blame him trading away?

Garza, Bartlett for starters. He helped create a Tampa Bay powerhouse.

[Mike Sixel]

I hated both those trades. Hated them.

 

My impression is that Ryan left because he was tired, he wasn't sure he was the right GM for this new world (his words, btw), he didn't want to sign Mauer to the kind of contract it would take (my assumption).

 

Yes, those other things count as GM work. I'm not sure how much credit I'd give him for the pace of the analytics growth......I'm not convinced the minor league coaches are working, given that zero of the power arms they have drafted have progressed. But yes, making those changes is probably good.