Charleston

[TheLeviathan]

 

Great post, my friend.  Asking the questions that you do and being bothered by troublesome facts are the kind of investments we need.  There are no good answers to your questions.  I only stress that we cannot be stymied by false starts and lost causes.   So much policy would have to be 'grandfathered in' for it to be a effective, sadly.  What ever good there is to be done, many will be left behind.

 

I agree, but that's the tough part.  People rarely like to hear that the best policy is going to leave people behind.  In fact, I'd argue trying to craft policy that avoids that has been a HUGE part of the problem.  In particular my experiences in education have been really enlightening in that regard.

[Mike Sixel]

Of course some people will be left behind. Is that a reason not to try to bring more along to a better future? I don't think so.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Of course some people will be left behind. Is that a reason not to try to bring more along to a better future? I don't think so.

 

Who said that?  C'mon.  We all want to bring more along, in fact that's the heart of the issue.  How do you bring more forward rather than spending such a disproportionate amount of time on a few that won't move with you?

 

Too often when we craft policy and legislation we try to make sure it will help everyone.  We ignore the reality of differences in human beings and we pretend we can fix things for everyone.  

 

We can't.  And we spend a LOT of resources trying, but we can't.  I guess my push is to be a bit more utilitarian and a bit less egalitarian.  Mostly because I think the whole premise of egalitarianism is flawed.  That doesn't mean you ignore anyone, but it does mean you consider your resource allocation and effort a bit more.  It's just a really hard conclusion to draw and one that people reject out of emotion rather than reason.

[Mike Sixel]

No one here said it, but your last paragraph admits that "society" says it. Every time someone tries to publicly acknowledge a reality that programs help some people, but not everyone.....well, it doesn't go well for their political future.

[TheLeviathan]

 

No one here said it, but your last paragraph admits that "society" says it. Every time someone tries to publicly acknowledge a reality that programs help some people, but not everyone.....well, it doesn't go well for their political future.

 

That's why our conversations have to go past that or it's a waste of time.  And the issue is more than acknowledgement, it's about our intentions in how we try and solve problems.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

BTW, did anyone else see Romney's tweet about the flag?

 

 

 

Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol. To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred. Remove it now to honor #Charleston victims.

 

Why can't we get this kind of honesty during the election cycle? This is the right equivalent of Obama's asinine "gay marriage is a state's rights issue" statement during the 2012 campaign.

 

Civil rights and decency are not a state's rights issue, Mr. President.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

A big development: Gov. of South Carolina orders the confederate flag to be taken down from statehouse.

[TheLeviathan]

 

A big development: Gov. of South Carolina orders the confederate flag to be taken down from statehouse.

 

Sad that it took this to make that happen, but at least it's a step forward.

[Squirrel]

 

A big development: Gov. of South Carolina orders the confederate flag to be taken down from statehouse.

For how long? Hopefully, forever.

[Brock Beauchamp]

For how long? Hopefully, forever.

State legislators need to vote on it. Given the amount of backlash - even Jeb Bush has called for its removal - I think it's coming down for good.

[stringer bell]

Good conversation here. While many good points have been made, I have been wearied by the veiled hate by both sides and the cynicism of politicians in manipulating voters.

 

Have we come a long way? Maybe. How many of us took note that Buxton's girlfriend (fiancee?) is white and blonde? How many of us look down on black kids with their pants down way low? I do, but I think it is generational rather than racial. However, most of us can wholeheartedly cheer for Hunter or Buxton without regard to their race.

 

I don't know what the solution is, but honesty has to be part of it. Too many of us suspect people of other races are inferior in one respect or another. It isn't "us vs. them" and black people are no less Americans than I am. There are so many facets to this issue and opinions are all over the board and the worst part is denial. As soon as Obama comments, conservatives said he was "playing the race card". I admit that I believe that much of the hatred towards the president is racially motivated.

 

One last thought: status quo isn't good enough. Something needs to be done or things will only get worse.

[formerly33]

 

I admit that I believe that much of the hatred towards the president is racially motivated.

I'd have to disagree. I think that most of the hatred towards Obama is based off of the fact that he is a democrat. If he was a republican, conservatives would say that liberals hated him because he was black ... but for the most part it wouldn't be true.

 

Now, I'm not blind to the fact that there is racial bias in America ... and the whole world, for that matter. But the fact of the matter is that democrats hate republicans, and republicans hate democrats. It's gotten to the point that parties make decisions not based on what they feel to be right but on what the opposing party feels to be wrong.

 

But this is straying somewhat off topic. And you might not like to hear this ... but I don't like to see white kids with their pants down low, either. But that's me ... it has nothing to do with whether I think I'm superior to them or not. It's kind of like how I don't like mohawks, regardless of whether they're on a boy or girl. But if people like to wear their pants down low or mohawks ... whatever. It's their choice, not mine.

[PseudoSABR]

I'd agree that most hate Obama because of his politics, but much of those--meaning a significant portion--are motivated by deep-seated, even latent racist tendency.  I think case-in-point example is the outcry about Obama using the n-word from the far right; if that faux outrage isn't a subtle form racial deafness I don't what is.   The birther argument along with the many stories of public officials circulating emails that compare Obama to primate reinforce this notion.

 

I think too many people define racism as hating another race.  Racism is any assumption applied to an individual purely on the basis of their skin.  American racism--in its pervasiveness--is latent and systemic, so that it is near invisible.  Reminds me of the proverb where an old fish asks two young fish "how's the water today, boys?" and the young fish turn to each other and say "what the heck is water?"

 

 

[stringer bell]

We haven't even talked about guns yet.

[TheLeviathan]

 

We haven't even talked about guns yet.

 

I think this would be a bad case to do so.  I'm not sure it's possible to craft a law that prevents a father from handing his son a gun.

[stringer bell]

OK, here's my reasons for believing the Obama hatred is racism. There is disdain and disgust for the opposition party, but not the assumption of unworthiness that Republicans have repeated over and over. If Obama were white, I don't think his birth would have been questioned, nor would there be sneering about him being a community organizer.

[stringer bell]

I think this would be a bad case to do so.  I'm not sure it's possible to craft a law that prevents a father from handing his son a gun.

I just read that he bought the gun 25 miles from home.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I just read that he bought the gun 25 miles from home.

 

Ah, my fault.  But how were we supposed to stop this particular gun sale?  Everything was legal, he had a minor drug charge, and nothing else on his record?

[Zachary]

 

Thanks for the link. He nailed it.

 

Now we need someone to nail a solution. I got nothin'. I can't raise other people's kids.

 

You are absolutely on the right track IMO. It starts with how kids are raised. From there I think there are thousands of things that start coming into play: Access to health care (physical and mental), poverty, environment, tolerance of attitudes, etc. 

 

Also, it has already been mentioned here, but just in case you were on the fence about watching it...Jon Stewart's piece was simply perfect. I happened to turn on the TV and catch it and I was literally moved by what he said and how he said it. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'd agree that most hate Obama because of his politics, but much of those--meaning a significant portion--are motivated by deep-seated, even latent racist tendency. I think case-in-point example is the outcry about Obama using the n-word from the far right; if that faux outrage isn't a subtle form racial deafness I don't what is. The birther argument along with the many stories of public officials circulating emails that compare Obama to primate reinforce this notion.

 

I think too many people define racism as hating another race. Racism is any assumption applied to an individual purely on the basis of their skin. American racism--in its pervasiveness--is latent and systemic, so that it is near invisible. Reminds me of the proverb where an old fish asks two young fish "how's the water today, boys?" and the young fish turn to each other and say "what the heck is water?"

Nailed it.

[Squirrel]

 

I'd agree that most hate Obama because of his politics, but much of those--meaning a significant portion--are motivated by deep-seated, even latent racist tendency.  I think case-in-point example is the outcry about Obama using the n-word from the far right; if that faux outrage isn't a subtle form racial deafness I don't what is.   The birther argument along with the many stories of public officials circulating emails that compare Obama to primate reinforce this notion.

 

I think too many people define racism as hating another race.  Racism is any assumption applied to an individual purely on the basis of their skin.  American racism--in its pervasiveness--is latent and systemic, so that it is near invisible.  Reminds me of the proverb where an old fish asks two young fish "how's the water today, boys?" and the young fish turn to each other and say "what the heck is water?"

I mostly agree with this. But I think the negative response Obama receives from the public has every bit as much to do with the color of his skin as it does his politics. The amount of disrespect he has been shown is the lowest of any president, republican or democrat, and that is not mostly because of his politics imo. And yes, racism isn't hating another race, but there is certainly plenty of hate that bubbles along with it in certain circles. I think hate is taught right along with it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I mostly agree with this. But I think the negative response Obama receives from the public has every bit as much to do with the color of his skin as it does his politics. The amount of disrespect he has been shown is the lowest of any president, republican or democrat, and that is not mostly because of his politics imo. And yes, racism isn't hating another race, but there is certainly plenty of hate that bubbles along with it in certain circles. I think hate is taught right along with it.

I think there are elements of truth to everyone who has chimed in here (you, always, pseudo).

 

The lines are so blurred and the country so polarized that it's hard to pick out the racist elements compared to the blind hatred of the other party (both parties are guilty of it but the Republicans have taken it to a new level with Obama).

 

What I find most perplexing is that in the matter of foreign relations, Obama is basically a Republican. Drone strikes abound, Guantanamo is still open, the Patriot Act (**** that name) is still here.

 

Yet the GOP still hates him with a fiery passion. Is that a partisan opinion or is it sprinkled with racism? Probably a bit of both.

 

But then there are things like the Birther Movement (**** that name), which is blatantly racist. Anyone who denies that movement is steeped in racial distrust (don't know if I'd go as far to call it "hatred") has blinded themselves to reality. Then there are the Obama chimpanzee photos...

 

It's a muddied situation. Do most conservatives hate Obama in part because he's black? I don't know the answer to that question. For the majority, it could be a continued escalation of the Polarized Nation we've created over the past several decades. It might be subversive racism. Don't know.

 

What I do know is that with Obama, we've had an entirely unremarkable President. Outside of the ACA, he has accomplished very little. He hasn't started any wars. The economy is in good shape. Some of that is Republican interference but to be perfectly frank, Obama hasn't exactly pushed himself outside the envelope with interesting ideas, either. He's a subdued President who doesn't accomplish much and isn't very inspiring.

 

Which makes the intense hatred for him all the more confusing, which leads me to believe that at least some element of it is steeped in racism. Simply put, the guy hasn't done anything to evoke this kind of passion from his enemies. Hell, he hasn't done much of anything at all. At least with the previous guy, liberals had a reason to openly dislike him as much as they did. He started nonsensical wars. The economy tanked on his watch. The Patriot Act flew through Congress. The administration was so sketchy that it was nearly impossible to deny that at least some truly nefarious things were happening under our noses.

 

With Obama,  not so much. The guy is largely ineffectual. Not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion but the reality is that he's not actually polarizing, yet he's treated as the most polarizing President in my lifetime. Obama is not FDR, folks.

[Brock Beauchamp]

On that topic, one of my pet peeves is the "Obama is the worst President of all time" theme going around various social media outlets.

 

If you honestly believe that to be the case, you are so completely ignorant of American history that it pains me to even think about it.

 

Every President who sat from 1830-1859 were horrible Presidents. Southern appeasement directly led to the Civil War. Andrew Johnson capped it off by following Lincoln and instituting Jim Crow (meaning that over a 40 year period of American history, there were "horrible Presidents" and "Abraham Lincoln"). Pretty much any of the clowns who let their cronies run Washington and allowed the Roaring 20s to happen (which directly led to the Great Depression) make the list.

 

Those are bad Presidents. Hell, Obama isn't even as bad as the guy who preceded him, much less some of the *******s on the list I just posted.

[Willihammer]

This kid was 21, right at the peak of the age-crime curve. Maybe the simplest solution to "gun violence" is to raise the legal age for purchasing a firearm to 25 or so.

[drjim]

I generally think disrespect and opposition to the president from opposing parties has been spiraling for a while. Clinton was bad, Bush was worse, Obama was much worse. Seems to be the trend and while race factored into it, probably was more just an acceleration of a trend rather than something completely new.

 

As far as "worst president ever" that is the new normal for the sitting president. A couple years after he leaves office his image will be back to where it belongs and people will turn their hate to the new president (especially after first midterms).

[drjim]

 

Good conversation here. While many good points have been made, I have been wearied by the veiled hate by both sides and the cynicism of politicians in manipulating voters.

 

Have we come a long way? Maybe. How many of us took note that Buxton's girlfriend (fiancee?) is white and blonde? How many of us look down on black kids with their pants down way low? I do, but I think it is generational rather than racial. However, most of us can wholeheartedly cheer for Hunter or Buxton without regard to their race.

 

I don't know what the solution is, but honesty has to be part of it. Too many of us suspect people of other races are inferior in one respect or another. It isn't "us vs. them" and black people are no less Americans than I am. There are so many facets to this issue and opinions are all over the board and the worst part is denial. As soon as Obama comments, conservatives said he was "playing the race card". I admit that I believe that much of the hatred towards the president is racially motivated.

 

One last thought: status quo isn't good enough. Something needs to be done or things will only get worse.

 

I'm going to take a different thought here. I don't think things are going to get worse, I think things are trending to the much better. Much of what is causing outrage right now was taken for granted not all that long ago. I think more of what we are seeing is a historically oppressed people rising up and saying they aren't going to take it anymore and now there is video evidence to support their cause. It isn't pretty and smooth but it is progress. And race issues seem to be, with a few tragic exceptions, much more settled in younger generations.

 

Charleston is a shocking situation but I also think much of the reaction shows how far people have come. Sure there are clowns on Fox and the like, but there is no unstoppable momentum to, for instance, take down and stop selling confederate flags. Long overdue sure, but pretty amazing how fast it has moved.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree, the world is generally getting better........

 

But, it has a long way to go. Given the tiny anecdotal things I hear, there are plenty of people that don't like Obama because he's not white.

 

As for guns, well, much like healthcare, we are the only nation that seems to have this problem in the civilized world........and yet we somehow think we are superior. Blindness to simple statistics and what they tell us is astounding. But, if your goal is to dumb down society, this is what you get.

[DaveW]

A ton of the disdain towards Obama is because of racism, all you have to do is spend a day or two down south to hear some pretty obvious racial "issues" with him.

 

Hell even politicians are showing racism towards him, that whole bit about how his daughter dressed was racism, the questioning of his birth is embarrassingly racist.

 

 

[DaveW]

While I think the confederate flag is stupid and should be removed ASAP, I have a bit of a problem with "how fast" it all has happened, to me it is just politicians looking to earn and score some easy low hanging points.

Instead of the governor of SC and other states coming out and saying "remove a flag" why don't they say something strong that might actually fix an issue? Come out strong against gun violence, gun laws etc. This Roof kid was awaiting trial on a FELONY charge, there is absolutely no reason why someone who is have yet to be found not guilty of a felony charge should be allowed to buy a gun. Removing the flag in a whirlwind doesn't solve anything IMO, it just creates a further divide amongst people and a greater disdain towards black people from the racists.

 

At least Obama had the balls to speak out about the gun violence issues on that podcast, and he was spot on with his statement that the NRA and gun lobbies have too much influence on congress for any real bills or change to pass. If we want these things to be fixed we need a public outcry, not a public outcry about some flag that racists adore.

[drjim]

If politicians didn't look to score points and go after low hanging fruit nothing obvious would get done.