So at what point does Molly/TR realize that Escobar and his sub .600 ops has no business in the DH/LF spot?

[Blackjack]

Does anybody ever listen to the Terry Ryan show on the radio??  You should, he addressed a lot of the issues talked about here. The show airs on Sunday an hour before the Twins broadcast and right before the Twins pregame.   Cory Provus does a good job of asking the questions about the current state of the Twins.

 

 

Last week they talked about the outfield defense, sabermetrics, and Tori Hunter;  the 13 pitchers and how it relates to Pinto, Vargas, and Arcia ("none of them are forcing their way back onto the roster";  Alex Meyer and his move to the bullpen ("I still believe he has the stuff to be a starter");  Gibson;  Escobar; Santana’s progress;  plus lots of other topics.  Definitely worth 1/2 hour of your time if you’re a Twins fan.

[drjim]

 

Does anybody ever listen to the Terry Ryan show on the radio??  You should, he addressed a lot of the issues talked about here. The show airs on Sunday an hour before the Twins broadcast and right before the Twins pregame.   Cory Provus does a good job of asking the questions about the current state of the Twins.

 

 

Last week they talked about the outfield defense, sabermetrics, and Tori Hunter;  the 13 pitchers and how it relates to Pinto, Vargas, and Arcia ("none of them are forcing their way back onto the roster";  Alex Meyer and his move to the bullpen ("I still believe he has the stuff to be a starter");  Gibson;  Escobar; Santana’s progress;  plus lots of other topics.  Definitely worth 1/2 hour of your time if you’re a Twins fan.

 

I second this emotion. You can even get it on iTunes as a podcast.

 

I don't always agree with Ryan, but will say that every time I listen to him I am impressed - which allows me to take the position that he is reasonably competent and actually has good reasons for everything that he does, as hard as that might be to believe.

[twinsnorth49]

 

I second this emotion. You can even get it on iTunes as a podcast.

 

I don't always agree with Ryan, but will say that every time I listen to him I am impressed - which allows me to take the position that he is reasonably competent and actually has good reasons for everything that he does, as hard as that might be to believe.

Why would that be hard to believe? I don't think just because a lot of people would like to see Ryan make some different moves means they think he isn't competent. I think TR is very competent, there are just times I would like to see a different approach. His opinion that Arcia and Vargas aren't forcing their way onto the roster interests me from the perspective that it makes me curious what Santana is doing to keep his roster spot and what Escobar has done to continue playing LF or DH. 

 

 

[drjim]

 

Why would that be hard to believe? I don't think just because a lot of people would like to see Ryan make some different moves means they think he isn't competent. I think TR is very competent, there are just times I would like to see a different approach. His opinion that Arcia and Vargas aren't forcing their way onto the roster interests me from the perspective that it makes me curious what Santana is doing to keep his roster spot and what Escobar has done to continue playing LF or DH. 

 

At the risk of going down a trail I want no part of, but do we read the same message board?

 

As for your questions - the Arcia/Vargas question seems self evident, just a matter of accepting what is actually happening. With Santana, his defense seems to be improving, so they are probably willing to show some patience with his bat. For Escobar, it is probably a lack of options so long as the young guys aren't forcing their way back into the lineup. I suspect Ryan/Molitor would love to upgrade at DH but aren't satisfied with how the young three are performing, though Vargas might be getting close. I would personally give Pinto a shot, but he isn't exactly lighting up AAA (.729 OPS).

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Does anybody ever listen to the Terry Ryan show on the radio?? You should, he addressed a lot of the issues talked about here. The show airs on Sunday an hour before the Twins broadcast and right before the Twins pregame. Cory Provus does a good job of asking the questions about the current state of the Twins.

 

 

Last week they talked about the outfield defense, sabermetrics, and Tori Hunter; the 13 pitchers and how it relates to Pinto, Vargas, and Arcia ("none of them are forcing their way back onto the roster"; Alex Meyer and his move to the bullpen ("I still believe he has the stuff to be a starter"); Gibson; Escobar; Santana’s progress; plus lots of other topics. Definitely worth 1/2 hour of your time if you’re a Twins fan.

"Santana's progress".... is that code for "Santana is not that good yet we still run him out there"?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Here's the funny thing to me.

 

I saw enough of Escobar filling in full time at short last year and have seen enough of Santana playing short, and my opinion is that Escobar is a better shortstop.

 

Therefore, Escobar to short and Santana to DH actually improves the lineup.

 

But we can do better than Santana at DH.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I saw enough of Escobar filling in full time at short last year and have seen enough of Santana playing short, and my opinion is that Escobar is a better shortstop.

While hardly the defining metrics to use in this example, both DRS and UZR agree with this analysis.

 

So does my own personal eye test. Santana might become the better shortstop in time but right now, I feel Escobar is the superior defender. Combine that with Santana's "lord have mercy" .368 OPS over the past 28 days and I think the decision is pretty obvious.

 

I'm all for playing the kids whenever possible but the Twins are vying for first place. They need to go with the steadier hand in the short term and let Santana work out his issues in Rochester, even if it's only for a few weeks.

 

Besides, it's not like Eddie is some old man stealing a roster spot. He's 26 years old, coming off a season where he played steady - albeit unspectacular - defense and posted an OPS of 101 in 465 PAs.

[bird]

 

Of course their judgment is different than mine, who said it wasn't? Both Vargas and Arcia are explosive players who have the ability to punish mistakes and hit the ball a long way. Do they need to do it more consistently? Yep. Do they need to be working on it with the big club? Yep, one of them anyway.

 I'm sure Molly and or TR have their reasons, I don't know them but even if I did I wouldn't necessarily have to like them.

 

 

It's just that every once in awhile, when people don't like Molly's reasons, whether they know them or not, it would be soothing to the ears to hear even a subtle acknowledgment that there MIGHT be an acceptable reason. I don't get that from most posts, do you? Instead, the vibe I get is that keeping Vargas down and slotting in Escobar, even temporarily, is idiocy. To use your words, borderline embarrassing.

 

If I called YOUR judgment on the matter borderline embarrassing, how quickly would I hear from one of your fellow moderators?

[drjim]

 

While hardly the defining metrics to use in this example, both DRS and UZR agree with this analysis.

 

So does my own personal eye test. Santana might become the better shortstop in time but right now, I feel Escobar is the superior defender. Combine that with Santana's "lord have mercy" .368 OPS over the past 28 days and I think the decision is pretty obvious.

 

I'm all for playing the kids whenever possible but the Twins are vying for first place. They need to go with the steadier hand in the short term and let Santana work out his issues in Rochester, even if it's only for a few weeks.

 

Besides, it's not like Eddie is some old man stealing a roster spot. He's 26 years old, coming off a season where he played steady - albeit unspectacular - defense and posted an OPS of 101 in 465 PAs.

 

While he was better in the past, I'm not convinced Escobar is the better defensive option going forward. Santana has the higher ceiling and is starting to refine his game little by little. But if he doesn't hit, the move might take care of itself. Though I would prefer dropping to 12 pitchers, this might be the move when Vargas or Arcia are deemed ready. 

 

One difference in way of thinking is that I think we are too quick to see a sub-optimal performance and want to ship it out, while the front office is probably more of the thought that there needs to be a clear improvement to push the person out of their spot.

[Mike Sixel]

So Escobar has "forced his way up"?

 

This is the mid 2000s all over again, punting the DH. Only this time, they have actual options out there, and aren't using them.

[Halsey Hall]

It doesn't look to me that either Arcia or Pinto are doing anything to get called up.  I would like Vargas back and in the dh spot.  I suspect he'll be the first of the three, but who knows when. 

[twinsnorth49]

 

At the risk of going down a trail I want no part of, but do we read the same message board?

 

As for your questions - the Arcia/Vargas question seems self evident, just a matter of accepting what is actually happening. With Santana, his defense seems to be improving, so they are probably willing to show some patience with his bat. For Escobar, it is probably a lack of options so long as the young guys aren't forcing their way back into the lineup. I suspect Ryan/Molitor would love to upgrade at DH but aren't satisfied with how the young three are performing, though Vargas might be getting close. I would personally give Pinto a shot, but he isn't exactly lighting up AAA (.729 OPS).

 

Well you did go down that trail by adding the "as hard as that might be to believe" comment, not sure what that added.

 

As for the rest, I'm not suggesting they send Escobar down, I believe it should be Santana, who has options. At this point I don't see any significant upgrade at SS y having Santana play over Escobar and believe Santana could benefit by a bit of time in Rochester, both at the plate and in the field. I realize that TR and Molly don't believe Vargas and Arcia are performing well enough to bring up but neither is Escobar or Santana in the positions they are in and in Escobar's case he's a fish out of water. 

 

I'd be fine with Pinto as well, someone at DH who could at least put some fear into a pitcher and drive the ball, as well as allowing Rosario to play more in LF instead of a SS.

[bird]

 

That's exactly why I mentioned it.  Punto was a great utility guy and a fine short term option at 2B/SS but he became one of the most hated players on the Twins because he was given a starting job.  Escobar is headed in the same direction.  He's valuable but starting him at DH/LF is going to win him no fans.

 

 

I just don't think Escobar is headed in that direction. I think his odd and suboptimal usage has been a very temporary thing, albeit not temporary enough for most of us.

 

The Twins have permanent solutions for every position except catcher and possibly SS in my opinion. It's just a matter of getting those players to the stage where they can handle the MLB job. The question is about when (if?)  Rosario, Arcia, Vargas, Hicks, Santana are ready to perform with consistency at this level. 

 

If Escobar turns into the next Punto, it will be because he's the starting SS and wearing down, IMO.

[Mike Sixel]

Does Escobar's track record indicate he is anything other than a utility guy probably? He certainly isn't a DH.

[twinsnorth49]

 

It's just that every once in awhile, when people don't like Molly's reasons, whether they know them or not, it would be soothing to the ears to hear even a subtle acknowledgment that there MIGHT be an acceptable reason. I don't get that from most posts, do you? Instead, the vibe I get is that keeping Vargas down and slotting in Escobar, even temporarily, is idiocy. To use your words, borderline embarrassing.

 

If I called YOUR judgment on the matter borderline embarrassing, how quickly would I hear from one of your fellow moderators?

 

That happens more than you think and perhaps in just isn't necessary to couch every opinion with "but I'm sure they have acceptable reasons", it kind of goes without saying. If I disagree with something TR or Molly decides it's not necessarily inferred that I don't think their reasoning is acceptable, I just have a different viewpoint.

 

Again, if you want to infer that I'm calling TR or Molly's decision to play Escobar where they have "embarrassing" go right ahead. I think it is embarrassing as a fan to have my team play a guy with an OPS of .588 at the DH spot , I didn't mention TR or Molly in that post, just that by it's very nature it's kind of embarrassing, as a fan.

 

And I didn't call anyone an idiot, another inference by you. I simply disagree with it, nothing more. Is that OK?

 

 

[bird]

 

"Santana's progress".... is that code for "Santana is not that good yet we still run him out there"?

 

 

As a double-play combination, how does Santana look to everyone? My eyes tell me he and Dozier are pretty solid. Maybe this is a more important factor than we realize.

[stringer bell]

While most of us would be fine with clearing a roster spot by letting Stauffer go, I don't think that will happen soon. It is Stauffer's status, in reality, which is forcing a 13-man staff. Having one less position player has cost the Twins the opportunity to keep the one-dimensional Vargas. I wonder if it will be an injury that allows the Twins to reduce the staff to 12.

[DaveW]

 

 13 pitchers and how it relates to Pinto, Vargas, and Arcia ("none of them are forcing their way back onto the roster"

So Vargas has a .333/.395/.615....that isn't forcing his way back onto the roster? Huh? I guess the cut off for "forcing your way back onto the roster" must only be having an OPS of 1.110 or above. Escobar has a .588 OPS, that is nightmare to have him in the DH spot more often then not. (Even Juan Castro had a higher OPS then .588)

 

In re: to 13 pitchers, there is literally ZERO reason why 13 pitchers should be on this 25 man squad for this long.

[bird]

 

So Escobar has "forced his way up"?

 

This is the mid 2000s all over again, punting the DH. Only this time, they have actual options out there, and aren't using them.

 

 

Again, the word "punting" connotes giving up. This is an unfair and insulting description of what's going on. The actual options they have, mike, includes the option they chose. We don't like the option they very temporarily chose, but Paulie and Ryan have not ignored the other available options. 

[drjim]

 

So Vargas has a .333/.395/.615....that isn't forcing his way back onto the roster? Huh? I guess the cut off for "forcing your way back onto the roster" must only be having an OPS of 1.110 or above. Escobar has a .588 OPS, that is nightmare to have him in the DH spot more often then not. (Even Juan Castro had a higher OPS then .588)

 

In re: to 13 pitchers, there is literally ZERO reason why 13 pitchers should be on this 25 man squad for this long.

 

I'm sure they want to see more than 10 games.

[Jham]

I think Santana's defense has improved.  I also like that he doesn't seem to take his struggles at the plate with him into the field.  He's pressing right now at the plate, probably because every time he steps into the box he has one eye on the pitcher and one eye on the dugout to see if they have someone packing his belongings into a suitcase.  That being said, he's not playing Florimon defense, and arguably not even providing Florimon offense.  Escobar is a better all around shortstop.  I'd give Santana 2-3 days off (like we did with Arcia and Vargas with some success) before sending him down.  

I do think having our prospects put in the work and demonstrate results before rewarding them with a call-up is a reasonable development strategy.  How long have we heard about Arcia and Vargas wasting their batting practice sessions?  Pinto has done nothing recently.  It's painful to see talent languishing in AAA while we struggle to fill gaps in the big leagues, but I do think instilling professionalism and work ethic is important to the short and long-term success of this team.  Do we want a Vargas or Arcia that can maybe outproduce Escobar (Arcia started his rehab 0-11, Escobar is certainly better than he's hit so far), or do we want a Vargas or Arcia at their full potential?  I don't think either answer is necessarily wrong, but at the beginning of June, I guess I'm ok with making guys work their way up, which I sort of think Vargas is doing anyway.

[dbminn]

Wow! A lot of venom, considering the team is playing well. I suspect TR and Molitor are aware of the issues and they are certainly not idiots.

 

The Twins have a lot of promising players between 22 and 25 years old. Like it or not, the organization's priority is that the young players properly approach their jobs. Vargas was sent down for this reason (see Phil Miller's 6/2 Strib article). Arcia's been injured and they won't bring him back until he's shaken the rust off his swing. They are staying patient with Santana, likely because his defensive is progressing at this point.  Not a bad philosophy if you are developing the team for the long run, even if you disagree with some of their ideas.

 

I don't necessarily agree with keeping Santana in the major leagues right now. I would rather see Polanco at SS while Santana works on his game. I'm also anxious to see Arcia fully rehabbed and back in the lineup as DH. He was beginning to hit right before he went down. And yes, let's DFA Staufer.

 

Finally, to save a lot of breath on this site... TRADE PINTO! He's not a major league catcher. We have plenty of DH types coming through the system.

 

 

[twinsnorth49]

 

I'm sure they want to see more than 10 games.

At AAA?, why? It's not like it's his first rodeo down there. I just question what there is for him to prove down there and how it's going to help him against big league pitching. 

[DaveW]

 

Again, the word "punting" connotes giving up. This is an unfair and insulting description of what's going on. The actual options they have, mike, includes the option they chose. We don't like the option they very temporarily chose, but Paulie and Ryan have not ignored the other available options. 

They have pretty much given up the last month at the DH spot, putting a guy who is a career 81 OPS+ int he designated HITTER slot is the definition of basically shrugging your shoulders and tossing him in there. If you want to keep Arcia/Vargas/Pinto in AAA purgatory you could at the very least sign a AAAA masher and slot him in for a few weeks.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Again, the word "punting" connotes giving up. This is an unfair and insulting description of what's going on. The actual options they have, mike, includes the option they chose. We don't like the option they very temporarily chose, but Paulie and Ryan have not ignored the other available options. 

 

You don't like the word? what word would you use to describe hitting a bad hitting utility infielder at DH?

 

Ignore the one word in the post, and discuss the actual topic, should a utility infielder be starting in LF and DH, or not? Did they or did they not do the same thing in the mid-2000s? How has Escobar forced his way onto the roster, and not Vargas, or Sano, or Hicks, or Pinto, or almost anyone else?

 

Try discussing the actual meat of the post, and not obsessing over a word you don't like.

[Craig Arko]

I understand Jason Kubel might be available.

[DaveW]

 

 

I'm sure they want to see more than 10 games.

What about the 12 major league games prior to him being sent down where he posted a .366/.395/.561 line?

More than that? How about the 54 games last year in the majors where he posted a .778 OPS as a rookie?

 

More? Add in his 97 games in AA last year where he posted a .832 OPS

 

If the Twins had a masher in at DH currently, or hell, even a guy who could sniff a .720 OPS in the DH spot I can understand keeping Vargas down a bit, but we have a guy, who has a .588 OPS, and a career 81 OPS+ Util Player (who doesn't bring any speed to the table as well) currently occupying that DH spot. It's just mind boggling.

[Mike Sixel]

And, Kubes can play RF I believe. Now, he's not CF like Bartlett, but still......

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

So Vargas has a .333/.395/.615....that isn't forcing his way back onto the roster? Huh? I guess the cut off for "forcing your way back onto the roster" must only be having an OPS of 1.110 or above. Escobar has a .588 OPS, that is nightmare to have him in the DH spot more often then not. (Even Juan Castro had a higher OPS then .588)

Arcia is still hitless in four games at Rochester. If this keeps up for a few more days, I have to believe Vargas will pass him in the pecking order.

[DaveW]

 

 

I understand Jason Kubel might be available.

That sad thing is, he would be a better option then Escobar at DH