Wetmore: Twins Retired Numbers

[Pius Jefferson]

That ship sailed some time ago; I wish they had, but they didn't.  And with the advent of the Nationals, who I believe have taken over the territorial custodianship of baseball history, it won't happen.

 

 

Sadly, you're probably right. Not sure what's worse the Twins ignoring history or the Nats leeching on to players who have nothing to do with the history of their franchise.

[stringer bell]

Regarding retired numbers: I wouldn't have retired Bert's or Hrbek's and I wouldn't retire anyone's until Mauer is eligible if he starts hitting like a Hall of Famer again.

 

Is Torii a borderline HoF? I don't think so, but he is popular and unfortunately that matters.

 

The Twins became the Twins, cutting their cord with Washington pretty severely. I don't agree with that, but as mentioned above, that ship has sailed.

[nicksaviking]

Honor the man to the left of this post in some way before you retire anymore numbers. There is no Twins without the Senators. No Killebrew, Pascual, Allison or Kaat. No 1965 AL Pennant. Just because the teams name changed doesn't mean the franchises history did. 

 

Actually, I think there have are some issues with the Twins claim of the Senator's history.  When they moved to Minnesota, Washington immediately got a new team, of course called the Senators, they then moved to Texas, who also claim the original Senator legacy.  Clearly Killebrew and Allison never played in Ft. Worth so the Twins should be right to claim them, but it would be similar to the new Cleveland Browns claiming the old Cleveland Browns legacy instead of the Baltimore Ravens, who were the actual original Browns franchise.

 

The Twins are the Senators in my book, but two teams fighting over the rights to a franchise that was known as a loser even more so than the Cubs sounds like it could produce some pretty silly drama.

[Benchwarmerjim]

 

The Twins are the Senators in my book, but two teams fighting over the rights to a franchise that was known as a loser even more so than the Cubs sounds like it could produce some pretty silly drama.

but it would be similar to the new Cleveland Browns claiming the old Cleveland Browns legacy instead of the Baltimore Ravens, who were the actual original Browns franchise.

 

The Cleveland Browns history is different because there was lawsuits involved. Art Modell moved the team, paid off the city and had to leave its history at the city limits sign.

That didnt happen with the Senators-Twins/New Senators-Texas Rangers. If anything, the Nationals latched onto the expansion Senators with the use of the curly W logo.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The Twins could retire the straight W logo.

 

The Twins 60 year anniversary in Minnesota is coming up. The Senators were in Washington for 60 years. 60 + 60. There are marketing possibilities. Not sexy, but could be meaningful. Arrange to host the Nationals on a summer weekend. Appropriate people to throw out the first pitch. Something about the Griffiths, Killebrew. Somewhat contrived, but what marketing event isn't to some degree.

 

42, 3, 34, W, 10, 6 …  why not!? Run with it, St. Peter. Great conversation starter, too. "Dad, what's the W?…"

[T.C.]

The Twins could retire the straight W logo.

 

The Twins 60 year anniversary in Minnesota is coming up. The Senators were in Washington for 60 years. 60 + 60. There are marketing possibilities. Not sexy, but could be meaningful. Arrange to host the Nationals on a summer weekend. Appropriate people to throw out the first pitch. Something about the Griffiths, Killebrew. Somewhat contrived, but what marketing event isn't to some degree.

 

42, 3, 34, W, 10, 6 …  why not!? Run with it, St. Peter. Great conversation starter, too. "Dad, what's the W?…"

I think the Twins retired the "W" about 4 seasons ago...

[Pius Jefferson]

The Cleveland Browns history is different because there was lawsuits involved. Art Modell moved the team, paid off the city and had to leave its history at the city limits sign.

That didnt happen with the Senators-Twins/New Senators-Texas Rangers. If anything, the Nationals latched onto the expansion Senators with the use of the curly W 

 

Didn't Seattle do something similar with the Sonics name and history?  I can't imagine Texas putting up much of a fight over Johnson, Goslin, Rice and other Senators being part of there teams history.

 

Back to the retired numbers. Torii Hunter really shouldn't even be in the conversation. He played had at bats in 11 years with Minnesota, but two of those a combined seven games total. He only reached 550 plate appearance or more six times.  His overall numbers aren't great and one or two years shouldn't do much to change that. 

[Thrylos]

That ship sailed some time ago; I wish they had, but they didn't.  And with the advent of the Nationals, who I believe have taken over the territorial custodianship of baseball history, it won't happen.

 

 

Not true.   It was made clear that Griffith took the whole Senators history with him when he moved the team to Minnesota.  The Pohlads just don't want to do anything about it.   If you remember, there was another team in DC after the Senators moved to MN.   The one that moved to Dallas a decade or so later.

The Senators' history is the Twins' history.  A team is not bound by its location.  Ask the Dodgers, Giants, Braves and Athletics, if you don't believe me...

[stringer bell]

Not true.   It was made clear that Griffith took the whole Senators history with him when he moved the team to Minnesota.  The Pohlads just don't want to do anything about it.   If you remember, there was another team in DC after the Senators moved to MN.   The one that moved to Dallas a decade or so later.

The Senators' history is the Twins' history.  A team is not bound by its location.  Ask the Dodgers, Giants, Braves and Athletics, if you don't believe me...

You will note, Thry, that the four teams you named kept their nickname when they moved.  The Browns became the Orioles and I don't believe they discuss their history in St. Louis much, if at all.  I believe the expansion Senators were in Washington only eight years, the Rangers have been in Texas for over 40, they can and should have claim to the eight mostly forgettable years in the 60s. 

 

The Senators were bad for most of their 60 years, but they certainly had some good years and great players.  I think the Twins owe the great players in their franchise credit for what they achieved.  However, when I was a lad and the Twins moved here from DC, I cared not one bit for the exploits of the Washington Senators from '01-'60.

[Thrylos]

 However, when I was a lad and the Twins moved here from DC, I cared not one bit for the exploits of the Washington Senators from '01-'60.

 

Sure.  That was then.  And I bet that you did not know that there was a team called Senators that moved to Minneapolis.  And that was when the sport was local and in person with some radio coverage and no TV coverage.  And that was baseball then.  Fast forward to the 80s and TBS and WGN and things changed.  Everyone with cable could see every single Braves and Cubs game.  And the local barriers broke.  Fast forward to the internet era and thinking that baseball is a local ballgame still is silly.  I bet that half of us do not live in the Twin Cities any more.

 

There are franchises that try to break those boundaries and have global following.  In the 21st century, thinking that your fans are only the same people who are driving I-35 and I-94 with you, is inane (and that is a generous descriptor.)  But this is what the Twins are doing.  Have them wear Giants' minor league affiliate uniforms in retro games, because they happened to play in Minneapolis.  No. Pride. No Ownership. No History.  Whomever played here.  As the wind blows.

 

And what I am saying about Griffith taking the "history of the Senators with him", is absolutely true.  Signed sealed delivered by the MLB.  More than an "understanding".  

[DocBauer]

Love Radke, a great Twin. Love Hunter and Morneau and Mauer and others.

 

You absolutely do not have to be a HOF player to be special enough to your team to have your number retired by that team. Though it's a great criteria! 

 

I think the criteria is somewhat intangible. Numbers, years with a team, awards, big games and moments, dependability, even being a face of the franchise. 

 

Hrbek qualifies. I don't know that Radke does, with all due love and respect. I wish he hadn't left, I wish his legacy had been longer, but Santana might qualify.  20 win seasons, All Star games and multiple Cy Young awards are pretty neat.

 

Mauer should end up as a retired number player. He's a hometown kid who has done things NO-ONE HAS EVER DONE in the history of ML Baseball. If his career ended tomorrow he should have his number retired by the Twins for his career and contributions. Strange how Tony O should be a HOF even though injury cut his career short, and yet in some people's eyes, injury cutting Mauer's amazing catching career somewhat short is him being a disappointment.

[stringer bell]

I'm going to follow Thrylos on the "honor the Senators" tangent. I would lay that on Calvin and his family. They moved the club to Minnesota, changed the nickname and the uniforms and did precious little to connect the Senators and the Twins. Should the incoming market (Minnesota) have automatically become long-time Senators fans? I don't think so. In the 60s, making an keeping the connection with the old-time Nats could have been done, but it wasn't. Again I was only six when the club came here, but I recall every milestone as setting club records in the early years--in other words the Senator history didn't count. Calvin and his family chose to connect more with Minnesota's minor league history (Miller and Saints) rather than the 60 years the old Senators toiled in the nation's capitol.

 

Carl Pohlad bought the Twins in the 80s. For him and his administration to re-establish a big connection with the old Washington Senators didn't make much sense. Unlike Calvin, he and his administration had no connection with DC

 

Now for my opinion. I agree that the Twins shouldn't forget the Senators. Murals and whatnot showing what happened to the franchise for the first 60 years fits better than tributes to Minnesota baseball. Any history of the franchise should feature the Griffiths and their long history in DC. However, the Washington legacy has been given away and it's not really worth it to try to get it back.