Dark Places and Expression

[Bark's Lounge]

After this whole Paris Terrorist Situation, It has me feeling in the dumps a fare amount.

 

Because of this I feel the need to start a thread where people can lay out their grievances about whatever situation is on their mind, whether it be religion, politics, or the trials and tribulations of being a human living in wherever you live.

 

I can only ask that you don't make a joke of this topic and take a dump on this thread. I am throwing it out there with great sincerity and hope this thread can be a decent avenue for the participants to air their grievances and fears about life, the future, and whatever is attached to that.

 

I will start:

 

I am a non believer in religion, certainly the BIG three (Christian, Islam, Judaism).

 

I do not like to root for people to be killed, but I was excited when the French disposed of the 3 Islamic Extremist or whatever they are deemed to be. Even though they killed a total of 17 people, in the aftermath, I felt bad that I was rooting for them to die. It makes me question my moral fortitude.

 

I am tired of people not caring for each other and making sacrifices to help their brethren out and I am tired of religion. Religion is an airplane that has run out of runway, it cannot take off anymore, it is obsolete. It needs to be cut out of our moral budget.

[ashbury]

Nous sommes tous Charlie.

[Bark's Lounge]

Nous sommes tous Charlie.

oui, nous sommes

[TheLeviathan]

I am tired of people not caring for each other and making sacrifices to help their brethren out and I am tired of religion. Religion is an airplane that has run out of runway, it cannot take off anymore, it is obsolete. It needs to be cut out of our moral budget.

 

I'm not religious either Bark and I share your disdain for these terrorists, but I would suggest that religion is just the popular choice to fulfill a particular human need that would lead us down the same path no matter what it was.  People want to belong and they want to feel like they have answers.  If religion ceased to exist tomorrow people would find something else to become equally obsessed over and the zealotry would start all over.

 

Short of an alien invasion or something else ridiculously preposterous at this point I'm not sure how we overcome that basic human problem that manifests itself most through religion.

 

To share in your thread's theme:  I'm so sick and tired of the argument "You can't say X!  It's a generalization!"   As if every discussion has to contain some kind of systematic breakdown of where every person or thing that might fall under that generalization fits.  We see it from the right about the argument that policing needs changes.  (Not all cops are bad and that's what these protests are saying!) We see it from the left on the issue of Islam being the source of this homicidal nonsense (You can't say Islam is part of the problem, that's racist!).

 

Both of those arguments are stupid and totally derail necessary conversations.  Sometimes things are true in a general sense and making a general argument doesn't entail that you mean every single person or thing that fits in that category is a problem.  You can carry generalizations too far, certainly, but they are not inherently bad arguments.  They are, frankly, necessary to have conversations about sweeping social issues.  Everytime some jerk launches that argument my blood boils because it's like dropping a hornets nest into a room.  

[JB_Iowa]

http://time.com/3662152/kareem-abdul-jabbar-paris-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-attacks-are-not-about-religion/

 

As Kareem said, these attacks are not about religion.

 

Religion, at its best, is about loving, forgiveness and acceptance,  It provides the moral structure upon which our legal system is based.  

 

Unfortunately it has often been the excuse for atrocities, hatred and division. 

 

As for me, I'm happiest when I focus on my small part of the world.  I live in a very small community where we generally live together peaceably and work together for the common good,  We have our disagreements but we usually work them out.  We are sometimes not as immediately accepting of others (especially those who are different from ourselves) as we should be but we are changing and the new faces reflect diversity even in a small town.  Best thing is that when you need help, peoplr are there for you.  I experienced it again this fall when I fractured my arm.

 

If I think about the world as a whole, I often find it depressing,  If I think about it as made up of lots of small worlds like mine, I'm much more hopeful.  

[TheLeviathan]

http://time.com/3662152/kareem-abdul-jabbar-paris-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-attacks-are-not-about-religion/

 

As Kareem said, these attacks are not about religion.

 

But he's wrong.  They really are about the religion and the KKK, or the Westboro Baptist church, or whatever else really is about the religion.  

 

That's not to say the religion itself is evil or vile or anything like that, but this particular strain of brutish behavior is being born of that religion.  Just like the maniacal behavior of Christians in the middle ages was being born of that religion.  Trying to distance these actions from Islam seems a tad silly when you look at what happened here.  Two men who believed what they were doing was honorable and following a specific code.  (They only killed men, spared women and children)  They praised their God and followed what they believed were the dictates of the prophet of their God.  They found much of their inspiration for these attacks from leaders within that religion.

 

Even a perversion of a religion is still about that religion.  We could argue what factors are driving that perversion, but the inherent power of religion over people is instrumental in why these things are happening.  Until we accept that, and acknowledge that it means nothing negative about the religion itself, we're not going to be able to help defeat that perversion.

[Bark's Lounge]

I'm not religious either Bark and I share your disdain for these terrorists, but I would suggest that religion is just the popular choice to fulfill a particular human need that would lead us down the same path no matter what it was.  People want to belong and they want to feel like they have answers.  If religion ceased to exist tomorrow people would find something else to become equally obsessed over and the zealotry would start all over.

 

Short of an alien invasion or something else ridiculously preposterous at this point I'm not sure how we overcome that basic human problem that manifests itself most through religion.

 

To share in your thread's theme:  I'm so sick and tired of the argument "You can't say X!  It's a generalization!"   As if every discussion has to contain some kind of systematic breakdown of where every person or thing that might fall under that generalization fits.  We see it from the right about the argument that policing needs changes.  (Not all cops are bad and that's what these protests are saying!) We see it from the left on the issue of Islam being the source of this homicidal nonsense (You can't say Islam is part of the problem, that's racist!).

 

Both of those arguments are stupid and totally derail necessary conversations.  Sometimes things are true in a general sense and making a general argument doesn't entail that you mean every single person or thing that fits in that category is a problem.  You can carry generalizations too far, certainly, but they are not inherently bad arguments.  They are, frankly, necessary to have conversations about sweeping social issues.  Everytime some jerk launches that argument my blood boils because it's like dropping a hornets nest into a room.  

Thanks for the comment Leviathan. I agree with everything you said.

 

I have to say, as soon as I put this thread out there, I regretted it. I needed to vent. Last week's happenings pissed me off to such an extent that I blew a fuse and for some reason, I thought this would be a good place to vent - I'm not sure if that was a very bright idea.

 

The last few years, I have tried to be more objective and not rush to judgment based upon my beliefs. I consider myself a tolerant person and open to other people's beliefs as long as it does not hurt or cripple society.

 

To everyone out there who has faith or what not, my beginning post was not meant to offend anyone. I was angry and wanted to express myself.

 

I do believe we can have some interesting and mature conversations in this thread.

[TheLeviathan]

This is a great place to vent, I was wondering when someone would post about the happenings in Paris.  Sometimes we need to hear hard things that challege our beliefs.  If every conversation on important matters have to keep both sides "comfortable".....then I'd suggest that conversation isn't going to get us very close to any real solutions.

[Paul Pleiss]

Is a greviance against the DH acceptable here? Seems a bit light compared with some other topics.

[biggentleben]

Is a greviance against the DH acceptable here? Seems a bit light compared with some other topics.

 

Typically appropriate, but on this board, as I have experienced, it's banging your head against a wall.

[gunnarthor]

Blaming religion in all this allows us to ignore the root causes of all these issues - many of which were created to make our lives here better.  There are a lot of issues that contribute to these things including insane poverty, homelessness and ****ty living conditions; gun trafficking on a world wide scale; destruction of social systems in many countries to support people; systematic robbery of a country's natural resources to richer countries; tax/business systems that create new serfs; human trafficking; military actions and creations of puppet rulers whose first priority is no the well being of their own people.

 

Blaming religion is a lot like blaming the rape victim for wearing too short a skirt.  Makes sense to some but it really moves the discussion to the wrong topic while ignoring the real issues which makes sure it'll happen again.

[TheLeviathan]

Blaming religion is a lot like blaming the rape victim for wearing too short a skirt.  Makes sense to some but it really moves the discussion to the wrong topic while ignoring the real issues which makes sure it'll happen again.

 

That analogy doesn't work...at all.  And manages to be both offensive to rape victims and derail the conversation.  

 

Those other issues might be the reason why the religion is being perverted, but how does it help to stick our head in the sand that this is a problem Islam is having?  Sometimes it's coincidence that people share a faith and do bad things, sometimes it's something about that religion that is part of the problem.  I'd argue the same thing about Catholicism and pedophilia.  

 

So we can acknowledge this is a problem for Islam without eliminating any of those other issues from the table.  (Notice, before this becomes your argument, that I'm not saying this is a problem WITH Islam.  But it is a problem for Islam that is creating a problem for many others)

[biggentleben]

I don't know that it can be solely honed even on religion, but religion certainly experiences it.  It's very strongly about extremism that has ravaged the political landscape both home and abroad.  There is no middle ground being sought in most countries.  Extremists are the loudest voices, and frankly, they're the most persistent ones as well, drawing legions of followers as much due to volume as legitimacy.  I've studied religions, and at their core, each seeks peace and tranquility, but extremists latch onto obscure passages and either turn them much too literally, rely on translations of original writings that are skewed in their translation, or completely ignore context in those passages to use them to justify terrible and horrible actions.  Remember that slavery in this country was once staunchly defended by citing Biblical sources.  Thankfully, the era of the elite only having access to things like scripture or higher learning has passed and many more people are able to acquire the knowledge to challenge these extremists beliefs, but they're simply being shouted over, again and again, to the point where they simply give up trying to educate those on the fringes and hope that they will scream themselves hoarse, akin to allowing a baby to cry itself to sleep rather than coddling it.  The problem is that the extremist movement simply finds someone louder (and oftentimes utilizing even less educated rhetoric) to push itself further in our current worldwide political landscape.

[TheLeviathan]

You're absolutely right ben, but there is something special about religion when it comes to this sort of thing.  Religion is a deeply personal, deeply held, and often deeply devoted subject for people in their lives.  It has the power to generate fierce passion.  Sometimes that passion manifests in some truly remarkable things to help others.  Sometimes it manifests in profoundly harmful ways.

 

The truth is that trying to carve religion out of this issue is absurd.  It's central, perverted though it is, to why this is happening.  It is deeply woven into the passion and justification these men and women use for their actions.  Much like other religious crazy people in the present and the past, they have wrapped themselves in their beliefs and genuinely feel that the atrocities they are committing are right and justified. Rarely does anything other than religion fuel that sort of mindset.

 

But as I said earlier to Bark, that doesn't make religion inherently evil or anything.  Even if we did away with it something else would take it's place, but it is the nature of what we're talking about.  As important or unimportant as any geo-political, wealth distribution, foreign policy, or anything else is in why this happens - it isn't the fuel that lights this fire.  You simply can't pry religion out of this without totally living in a fantasy world.

[biggentleben]

Oh, absolutely.  I don't think religion should be removed from the conversation as I believe the extremist issues pervade religion as strongly as any area of life.  My argument is that you're finding more and more that religion ends up at extremes as much or more so than our political processes do.  It's not the center issue as some have stated, but it's also not excluded from the conversation either.

[TheLeviathan]

Oh I'd say it is central issue for precisely the reasons you point out Ben. Religion inflames passions and those extremes are really critical to developing a willingness to die to kill others.

[biggentleben]

Oh I'd say it is central issue for precisely the reasons you point out Ben. Religion inflames passions and those extremes are really critical to developing a willingness to die to kill others.

 

We've also seen in this country recently those who are inflamed and willing to die protesting due to injustice while others defend those being protested against with just as much fervor. I guess I was more stating that religion isn't the sole issue for the divides we are seeing in the world.  Religion within the Jihad movement has been used as a crutch for those who dislike the influence of American culture and behaviors into their culture and want a reason to be able to respond with a vengeance.  Religion within the Crusades was used as a crutch by those who wanted to conquer and expand in a similar manner to global expansion and domination that would follow in the Americas roughly 500 years later.  Often religion is cited as a reason for hatred and discrimination that is in the heart of the individual and needs a reason to justify his/her hate.  That said, there are certainly those who stand up front in a religious service and incense the people in attendance to violent action, but it's curious to me if that's the religion speaking or the heart of the person on the pulpit driving that behavior.  Often one gets into a very chicken/egg argument on the core of where these issues truly begin.

[TheLeviathan]

We've also seen in this country recently those who are inflamed and willing to die protesting due to injustice while other defend those being protested against with just as much fervor. I guess I was more stating that religion isn't the sole issue for the divides we are seeing in the world.  Religion within the Jihad movement has been used as a crutch for those who dislike the influence of American culture and behaviors into their culture and want a reason to be able to respond with a vengeance.  Religion within the Crusades was used as a crutch by those who wanted to conquer and expand in a similar manner to global expansion and domination that would follow in the Americas roughly 500 years later.

Quick hitters:

 

1."just as much fervor" as suicide bombers and passionate protests seems like an unequal amount of fervor to me.

 

2. You don't think there is a reason religion is used as the crutch/justification? You think that's purely coincidental?

 

3. Religion definitely isn't the sole divide, I agree. I would argue it is the divide driven with the most zeal and least compromise, however. That's a central part of the problem.

[Bark's Lounge]

Is there a way to eradicate religious extremism? Is there a way to unite people on a realistic wave of compromise, where we can agree to disagree about our faith or lack there of and practice those things within your family unit or community and be accepting of people who do not practice those rituals and let it roll off your shoulders? These are the kind of behaviors/actions I would like to see.

 

Is it realistic? At this juncture in time, in my opinion, I have my doubts.

 

Just to speak about Americans - why haven't the Atheists, Agnostics, non-believers, and fringe religious people united and take a stab at our awful two party political system? I would think that 20%+ of our population would adhere to this designation.

 

I have no ideas on what can happen abroad, but I would welcome a movement of this kind on the homefront. The Democrats and Republicans are feces caked on the bottom of my/our Adidas.

 

If something like this were to happen, my guess is there would be some subversive actions carried out to sabotage this kind of movement, but you have to start somewhere and take your licks.

 

I understand the word "change" was ruined by Obama's campaign 7 years ago, but I would actually like to see some real change... new voices, new idealism, etc., etc...

 

Maybe I need to get off my ass and do something - a secular approach is what I want... no exceptions.

[glunn]

Is there a way to eradicate religious extremism? Is there a way to unite people on a realistic wave of compromise, where we can agree to disagree about our faith or lack there of and practice those things within your family unit or community and be accepting of people who do not practice those rituals and let it roll off your shoulders? These are the kind of behaviors/actions I would like to see.

 

Is it realistic? At this juncture in time, in my opinion, I have my doubts.

 

Just to speak about Americans - why haven't the Atheists, Agnostics, non-believers, and fringe religious people united and take a stab at our awful two party political system? I would think that 20%+ of our population would adhere to this designation.

 

I have no ideas on what can happen abroad, but I would welcome a movement of this kind on the homefront. The Democrats and Republicans are feces caked on the bottom of my/our Adidas.

 

If something like this were to happen, my guess is there would be some subversive actions carried out to sabotage this kind of movement, but you have to start somewhere and take your licks.

 

I understand the word "change" was ruined by Obama's campaign 7 years ago, but I would actually like to see some real change... new voices, new idealism, etc., etc...

 

Maybe I need to get off my ass and do something - a secular approach is what I want... no exceptions.

 

I have read that more than 15,000 children die every day from lack of nutrition.  Compared with this, what happened in Paris and even 9-11 seem less important.

 

Human beings are tribal.  We have a natural affinity for those who are like us and we tend to disregard those who are different.  I feel that religion is one attribute that divides us, but there are other important divisions, including race, ethnicity, economic class, sexual orientation, nationalism, language and geographic proximity.

 

Sadly, the trillion dollars or more per year that is spent on the military, prisons and other coercive measures would be more than enough to feed every starving child, and probably most of the adults.  Ironically, most religions agree that we should treat others as we would like to be treated.  It seems to me that the key to making the world better will be educating people to accept their differences and work together.

 

If aliens invaded tomorrow, I think that the nations of the world could unite, like the U.S. was able to unite with the USSR against Germany.  Short of that, I think that we need to better educate people as to where the wealth is flowing and what the world could be like if we could work together to address the real problems, starting with starving children.  I wish that the leaders of the major powers would declare war against starvation and poverty, and agree to devote increasing parts of their military budgets to "bombing" poor countries with food, water projects and schools.

 

Bark, I do see progress over long periods of time.  Slavery (in the classic sense) has been eliminated in most places, women have gained a greater measure of equality in most places and some historic enemies have become friends (such as Britain and France and the U.S. and Japan).  Obviously we have a long way to go and the path will not be easy, but I am hopeful that over the next hundred years or so we might be able to accelerate the pace of positive change.

 

500 years ago, most people were slaves, serfs or the like and most countries were ruled by kings/queens/emperors and the like.  In most places, women's rights were very limited, gay people were subject to execution and only the wealthiest people could read and write.  I think that we have come a long way and we still have a long way to go.  People who care about others need to overcome the politicians and the entrenched powers.  Martin Luther King overcame the racist bastions of the South -- nonviolent resistance and peaceful activism can be effective strategies over the long run.  

[biggentleben]

Quick hitters:

 

1."just as much fervor" as suicide bombers and passionate protests seems like an unequal amount of fervor to me.

 

2. You don't think there is a reason religion is used as the crutch/justification? You think that's purely coincidental?

 

3. Religion definitely isn't the sole divide, I agree. I would argue it is the divide driven with the most zeal and least compromise, however. That's a central part of the problem.

 

1. That was an exaggeration, and in certain poor taste in this thread.  For that, I do apologize.  It is a good example of how the human condition longs for belonging and justice both.  Sometimes folks find that in religion, sometimes in other causes/areas of life, but always there is some motivation for fellowship and community.

 

2. I do think there's a very good reason.  Religious following is far too easy to engage.  Jonestown was began as a religious movement and the Nazi movement was utilized as a focused opposition to one religion.  Because religion is always a very personal thing to people, which is why it is much more easily manipulated than even political leaning, at least in my experience.  I have known many people who changed political ideologies in their lifetimes, but changing religious belief (even if you do change from one church to another) is something rarely done in a person's lifetime.

 

3. This I 100% agree with.

[biggentleben]

Is there a way to eradicate religious extremism? Is there a way to unite people on a realistic wave of compromise, where we can agree to disagree about our faith or lack there of and practice those things within your family unit or community and be accepting of people who do not practice those rituals and let it roll off your shoulders? These are the kind of behaviors/actions I would like to see.

 

Is it realistic? At this juncture in time, in my opinion, I have my doubts.

 

Just to speak about Americans - why haven't the Atheists, Agnostics, non-believers, and fringe religious people united and take a stab at our awful two party political system? I would think that 20%+ of our population would adhere to this designation.

 

I have no ideas on what can happen abroad, but I would welcome a movement of this kind on the homefront. The Democrats and Republicans are feces caked on the bottom of my/our Adidas.

 

If something like this were to happen, my guess is there would be some subversive actions carried out to sabotage this kind of movement, but you have to start somewhere and take your licks.

 

I understand the word "change" was ruined by Obama's campaign 7 years ago, but I would actually like to see some real change... new voices, new idealism, etc., etc...

 

Maybe I need to get off my ass and do something - a secular approach is what I want... no exceptions.

 

I will say that I am very much a religious person, even having pursued a life in ministry before I ran into some lovely church politics, but I have been a registered independent my entire life, and I have actively assisted in campaigns for third-party candidates going back to my college days (sadly, I have to admit that I helped get Jesse elected).  I think that's part of the issue going on.  If you're part of some churches but hold different political ideologies, you're seen as outcast, and I've experienced similar issues with Athiests shunning those who were Bush supporters not all that long ago, so it's not just churched who push a political side, but also unchurched as well.

 

All that said, I think your last line is the key to this entire thread.  The bumper sticker quality quote attributed to Gandhi reads, "Be the change you want to see in the world."  While he never actually said that quote, it does ring true, as does the true quote where that summation comes from: "If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. ... We need not wait to see what others do."  That is where we should focus our energy.  I really dislike listening to someone who did not vote or did not engage himself/herself in the process complain about what's going on in the world and still not being inspired to do anything to affect the issues they have with what is going on in the world.  Volunteer, donate (wisely, not just haphazard), and engage yourself in your world in a way that allows the changes you'd like to see to begin coming through.

[TheLeviathan]

2. I do think there's a very good reason.  Religious following is far too easy to engage.  Jonestown was began as a religious movement and the Nazi movement was utilized as a focused opposition to one religion.  Because religion is always a very personal thing to people, which is why it is much more easily manipulated than even political leaning, at least in my experience.  I have known many people who changed political ideologies in their lifetimes, but changing religious belief (even if you do change from one church to another) is something rarely done in a person's lifetime.

 

I agree and for me this is why Islam has to be at the center of this problem.  People get heated about many things they care about, but there is simply nothing like religion to spark craziness.  If you take Islam out of these actions it's like trying to explain a fire without any fuel. 

 

Doesn't make Islam bad (each religion has their particular problems I'd argue), but it does mean that Islam specifically is part of this problem.  

[Bark's Lounge]

Thanks for the idea Ben.

 

[biggentleben]

Bark, my office mates just looked at me quizzically wondering why I busted out laughing for no reason.  Thanks for that!

[Bark's Lounge]

Bark, my office mates just looked at me quizzically wondering why I busted out laughing for no reason.  Thanks for that!

Anytime Ben!

[glunn]

I just read the following article that addresses some of what we have been talking about in this thread, but from a more global perspective:

 

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/mourning-the-parisian-journalists-yet-challenging-the-hypocrisy

[Craig Arko]

I just read the following article that addresses some of what we have been talking about in this thread, but from a more global perspective:

 

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/mourning-the-parisian-journalists-yet-challenging-the-hypocrisy

Good thought-provoking article. For those focusing on religious fever, there's another word I'd like to toss out there: nationalism. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish the two, but both happen when a self-selecting group of people think they are better than everybody else. It's a pretty common trap. This is not even yet considering race-based genocide, this is simply blowing up your neighbor.

[TheLeviathan]

That's a good article and there is an entire web of problematic relationships in our world that lead to a great many injustices.  Nationalism is a profoundly powerful motivator as well, probably second only to religion.  

 

Those issues should absolutely be on the table for consideration when we talk about how to address the problem.  And I'm honestly not sure a "good" solution exists because of how complicated these issues are.

[gunnarthor]

Ignoring much of this thread, I liked this piece by Richard Seymour: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-islamophobia/

 

"I think there’s a critical difference between solidarity with the journalists who were attacked, refusing to concede anything to the idea that journalists are somehow “legitimate targets,” and solidarity with what is frankly a racist publication. I will not waste time arguing over this point here: I simply take it as read that — irrespective of whatever else it does, and whatever valid comment it makes — the way in which that publication represents Islam is racist."