Twodogs

You are kinda saying exactly what I am saying only differently. Yeah if my co-worker left the company that I work for to better himself, it will depend on why he is leaving. If he is forced to leave to better himself you better bet on it that I'm going to work my ass off too so I can get the hell out of there to better myself too. See what I'm saying? It means that the company that we are currently working for is failing if it is unable to keep it's employees, and it's employees have to leave in order to better themselves then everyone who comes to work there won't really be thinking about the company but will be thinking about themselves so they can get out of that company and into a better one. It kind of creates the type of environment where everyone who comes to work for that company is using it as a stepping stone and not as a destination company. That was a great example you used to prove both of our points. I get it, I'm overreacting a little to say that the twins might as well get rid of everyone, but if you get rid of everyone and start over the twins will be near the bottom of the league next year and probably another year or two or three. If the twins don't get rid of everyone but they get rid of their best starting pitcher they will be near the bottom of the league next year and probably another year or two after that again. So why keep guys around that are going to cost money when you are going to be near the bottom of the league anyway? Might as well start over and start preparing a bunch of new guys to play together.

Yeah for sure no doubt, however those guys usually come in and add something to an already veteran roster that got the team there in the first place. Usually, those teams in the post season runs to the WS didn't get rid of all of their main guys the year before. Plus many of these guys have been playing together for a long time, like Buxton, Kepler, Berrios, Polanco, Rosario etc.... They made it through the system together. So to start replacing one here and there often will break up the chemistry that the team once had. So that is why when people talk about competing next year then most likely you won't compete by adding a bunch of new faces every year. If they trade Berrios they might as well get rid of the whole team and start over with a new core that have been playing together while they have been on the way up which at that point it is once again a 3 or 4 year rebuild. So I say trade the guys that are on expiring contracts but keep your core if you want to compete. I realize that all of these guys are supposed to be professionals, but as mid 20 year old guys you just don't know what it might do to them as human beings to see their friends discarded here and there. So if that's what you're going to do then do it 100% and give up on the next 3 or so years. If you don't want to do that then getting rid of Berrios right now is not the answer.

Yes as with all AAA teams their players always have to move on to Major league teams eventually.

San Diego is a great example. They have one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball in Gore, but look at how many pitchers they brought in during the off season. They brought in enough to the point where they don't need Gore. Teams looking to go after the world Series don't usually want to bank on rookies.

Twins front office did such a great job this off season that almost all of their expiring contracts are untradable. Happ, Robles, and Colome are basically untradable. Shoemaker in no way shape or form is worth anything. I mean when teams sign free agents one of the thought processes are, well if we are out of it then we can off load them at the deadline, right? However, the Twins tried to save a few bucks by bringing in Colome; I mean it was fairly clear that Hand wasnt opposed at all about coming to the Twins. I think he is making what? 10 or 11 million this year? Where as Colome is making what like 7 million this year with an option? But at this point in time, they could actually trade Hand for something but Colome is pretty much dead in the water. Another example of the problem with dumpster diving. Had they just signed better players yeah it would have cost them some more, but they'd have some trade value at this point in time, unlike what they now have with these guys. Now they are stuck with them for the rest of the year.

So my thought process on this is why do negotiations need to stop at this point? I mean why would the Twins draw a line in the sand and say if we don't have a deal done by this date then we are done negotiating? I mean what value does that give the Twins? So why would an article come out like this that basically says everyone failed in their negotiations? (Unless the Twins gave up for good?). I mean why wouldn't the Twins and Buxton.....er his agent just keep the lines of communication open? Doesnt really make sense to me.

JA Happ isn't going to be able to be traded. That's for sure.

It seems to me that one of the issues is that the Twins have an approach that sometimes (whether analytical or not) devalues their own talent and often overvalues other people's talent. I think often times a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. You really don't know how a player from somewhere else is going to mesh with the team you currently have. I get it, everyone is going to say; they are professionals, they are getting paid a lot to play this game they the players need to adjust. But, they are human too. So when you have players that you already know and can trust to stick to the program that you have laid out then sometimes I think that is worth way more than trying to build a team based on fantasy value. Analytically a player may be worth this much, but in the wrong situation that value may go down. So I really feel that the Twins need to focus on what they have sometimes over what looks shiny and new out there. So I mean one instance I can think of is Rich Hill. They had him last year and let him fly, but then went and replaced him with Matt Shoemaker, I mean they are making close to the same amount of money? So why let a guy go that actually performed for you pretty well, I know he had a few injuries and dings last year, but you had him and replaced him with someone that is now terrible. Another instance, now this one is fairly speculative, but Brad Hand is a Minnesota boy, it seemed like from articles that were written that Hand was pretty interested in coming home, instead the Twins pick up Colome, I don't think their salaries are that far off, probably like 10 mill vs 6 mill. But from what I felt like I read is that Hand wanted to be here Colome just wanted to play baseball I don't think Colome really cares one way or the other about being in Minnesota. These types of things are not really measurable via analytics, but I dare to say that had the Twins had Hand closing games and Rich Hill as the 5th starter that they still might not be in 1st place, but they'd be doing much better than they are right now. Heck Jake Odorizzi made it clear he likes it in Minnesota, I'd venture to say that with him instead of JA Happ again the Twins would probably be in a better place and I don't think their salaries are that much different either. Probably both close to 10 million. So now when we start talking about Jose Berrios, yeah you can get rid of him via a trade or what not, but Jose has been here for a long time and understands the program, so whoever you pick up to replace him, may analytically look to be on par with Jose but may not feel any loyalty whatsoever towards the Twins organization and as a result may not pitch anywhere close numbers wise to what Jose would have done. So they can just pick and pluck new and different pieces year in and year out, and they could even end up spending more, but they may never regain the clubhouse culture that the homegrown kids developed together. So analytics does a great job predicting how a player may play, but it can't tell you how well they will mesh with the new club. Now to me, it seems a lot easier to add a new personality or two at the trade deadline, like they did with Shannon Stewart. Now when you put a guy onto a team that is already winning they can usually buy into that, and in the meantime develop a relationship with the new squad. Winning seems to do those kinds of things. So I feel that the Twins need to place more importance on trying to keep their own guys vs going out and getting replacements every year. Also, when a guy says he likes it in Minnesota, don't use that as some form of weakness to try and get them to sign cheap, pay that guy what he is worth because he actually wants to be here because you will not be able to replace that. I mean Lance Lynn, Tom Here are all examples of guys that didn't want to be here and how did they perform? Not very good, for the Twins. So again, sometimes you need to look at a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

What and I don't know hopes the lead holds up too.

Shoot I thought Cruz hit that out!

I don't know why it did that 3 times? Dang phone!

Who feels like this 4 run lead is safe??

Who feels like this 4 run lead is safe??

Who feels like this 4 run lead is safe??

It sure does seem as though their hitting has completely fallen apart after Rowson left? Pitching has been awful this year, but I'm almost just as convinced that the hitting has been more of an indicator of the poor season than the pitching has.

Right now he is "on pace" for 208 innings and 222 K's. He has a 1.08 whip and he has had a winning record every single season except for his first season. I mean yeah I can see where people are a little disappointed that he hasn't turned into Verlander or Scherzer, but even with a few shortcomings so far in his career he is still one of the best starting pitchers in all of baseball. In reality there are only a handful of pitchers that could replace him and do better than he has with what's around him, and probably about none of them would come to the Twins in free agency. They might be able to sign someone a tick below Jose with a severe overpay, but if you have to overpay to get good starting pitching then you might as well overpay the dude you already have. Then go out and find another Pineda or Maeda type for a 1, 2, 3 part to the rotation and then hope and pray two of the new guys such as Balazovic, Ober, Dobnak, etc.... Can fill out the rotation. Yes they definitely need to go out and get some pitchers for the bullpen as that is atrocious. I would start by trying to sign some guys from teams that are used to winning. Robles and Colome were on losing teams most of the last few years, try and bring in some guys used to winning. The upside to keeping him is that they are better with him, if they get rid of him they will suck no question. No matter how much money the Twins throw around out there they won't be able to sign any free agent that is better than Berrios. So they might as well keep him and find another #3 starter like Pineda and hope one of the younger guys develops like Balazovic etc... If they get rid of Berrios, they might as well get rid of everyone and start over, no point in keeping Buxton, or any of them, start over. If you don't want to start over then Berrios has to be the focal point as the starting rotation is the most important part of the team.

Barely gets to 5 or 6 innings? He has gotten to 6 or more innings in everyone of his last 10 starts except one and in that one he got to 5. I mean for that matter he is 10th in all of baseball, American and National leagues as far as innings pitched. So that means there are only 9 other pitchers in all of baseball that qualify as a solid mid rotation type pitcher that can eat innings? Here is the innings leaders. Wheeler 125.2 Bassit 125 Buehler 121.1 Greinke 120.2 Cole 120 Alcantara 119.2 Woodruff 119 Gausman 117.2 Kelly 117 Berrios 114.2 So to try and act like he has some deficiency as far as pitching deep into games has no basis other than he had one bad inning yesterday. Also on the flip side of that there have probably been a number of starts that Berrios could have gone longer and the management team pulled him out anyway. We can all speculate that he would have done well or poorly had they not pulled him out but the bottom line is that the Twins biggest need over the last few years has been getting some top arms for the rotation. Now it is sounding like you are ok with them getting rid of Berrios, but which of those 9 pitchers above him are they going to get to replace him? So as far as eating quality innings according to what is out there he is almost irreplaceable, plus even if the Twins somehow get a replacement that is at least in the same ballpark as Jose, where does that leave you? In the exact same spot. So if the Twins are to get better they need to get two guys that are in the same ballpark as he is, plus be able to replace Pineda as he is in the last year of his contract. Yeah, I feel as if the Twins trade Berrios they are out of contention for the next 3 years because they will have no pitching staff other than Maeda. So Berrios is probably the last guy you trade and they probably need to figure out a way to keep him. I mean I know Cleveland has traded pitchers away a lot lately, but the Twins by no means have shown the ability to develop pitching (especially starting pitching) in house at anywhere near the same level as Cleveland has done over the years. I mean the Twins continuously bring up up and coming hitters such as Kirlloff and Larnach, etc... But they just have not shown that ability to bring up pitching. So they can trade away whatever hitters they want because I'm confident that they'll bring up someone else that can hit, but by no means have they proven to be able to bring up anyone that can consistently start at the same level as Berrios.

Well that is interesting, because on July 11th, July 6th, and June 12th he completed 7 innings and on May 31st he completed 8, that doesn't even count games he has just pitched into the 7th but didn't finish it like yesterday.

I really don't like all of the drama that stuff like this article causes. That's why it's best to keep stuff behind closed doors now we get in to a he said she said situation and everyone is trying to do damage control. "Does Buxton even want to stay?" I mean has he ever said that he doesn't?? "They lowballed him so that they look like they tried." Do we really know what was offered? I mean half of this article is hearsay, I just don't see how an article like this helps the situation at all. I mean it creates something that everyone can now creat banter about. But I don't see how it helps the Twins or Buxton.

I personally think the signings of Happ and Shoemaker were the nails that put the twins in the coffin this year. I think they need to see what these youngsters have, I mean they already know that they can compete in the minors, so bring them up and let them make a few starts this year and see what they bring to the table. Then in the off season they need to sign one real good pitcher to go with Berrios and Maeda, to make a quality top 3 and then let these guys like Balazovic, and Duran, and Dobnak, etc.... All compete for the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation. Obviously you'll need a 6th and probably 7th too along with a bullpen. But let's see what these kids can do now, I definitely agree.

I bet he is glad to be playing for the Padres??

Yeah, I know it's always a crap shoot, but it always seems to me that the sooner they can get a kid into the MLB camp the sooner they can develop him etc.... I mean it would seem that the international kids have a huge huge advantage over the American kids because the international kids can get selected when they are 16 years old. I'm pretty sure the Twins have better coaching than the local high school does?? I'm not knocking high school and college baseball, but to me it just doesn't seem fair that some kids(international) are able to get MLB coaching at age 16 and a lot of the American kids often have to wait until they are like 21 (Jr year of college) in order to get that same high calibre coaching instruction. So if they have a real good high school player they might as well go after him because then they have more time to work with him.

This is just my personal belief, but I think real good rotations and staffs have a combination of all types of pitchers. So the White Sox were brought up, but Dallas Kuechel definitely does not fit that velocity category but he fits into their rotation. So they have a guy like Giolito, then a Lefty like Rodon, and then you sandwich a soft tossing ground baller in-between them and I feel that with the different looks and different types of pitchers can confuse hitters a little. I mean they aren't going to be literally confused, it's just that one day you hear up for that velo guy and the next day you got some guy hitting the inside of your bat with junk and the hitters never quite get comfortable. So as far as the Twins go, Maeda is that soft tosser, and they realistically need a couple of hard throwers to go around him. So the Twins definitely need some help with the velo guys. But a team overall don't need to have all velo guys to be good. I feel they need a combination of all types of pitchers. On another note, I was listening to Dan O'Dowd on MLB channel. He mentioned when he was a GM they were always going after velo. But he said often times those velo guys just couldn't find the strike zone. So he said he had been talking with a lot of GM's and with pitching coaches nowadays they are able to take a guy and add quite a bit of velo with different mechanics and added strength, etc.... That a lot of the times guys who have real good command that don't necessarily throw super hard but show promise to gain velo are often coveted, because it's much harder to teach command, it's a lot t easier to teach velocity. So you can get a strike thrower who throws 90 and get him to 95 - 97. But it is really hard to get a guy who throws 100 but can't throw strikes, to learn how to throw strikes. It was just interesting to listen to him talk about that stuff. Again, the Twins don't seem to be teaching their pitchers to throw harder in the minors. So again the Twins are behind, but probably more so in development and not necessarily from not drafting velo guys. Again just my opinion.

I don't think any teams will give up much right now for Kepler, I mean they will want him, but they won't give up much more than some AAAA fliers. Same with Sano. Just because of the way they are producing right now. So in reality, I think Kepler and guys like Sano are worth more to the Twins than they are to other teams out there. They will be worth a lot more if they keep them and they have a potential turn around season and play like they are capable. Then they'd be trade worthy, but then no one here would want to trade them. Everyone wants to trade them because they aren't living up to their potential right now. That kind of makes it a bad time to trade them.

Seems to me that Tatis, Acuna Jr. Etc. Show boat of every bomb The hit?? So why pick on josh