chpettit19

I'll start by just saying let's not compare Nick Gordon, or anyone on the Twins, to Mookie Betts. As for the general idea here, there's a lot of variables at play. Do they have someone capable of taking over at SS fulltime on the ML roster already? It's not necessarily always position to position considerations (this article is), but it's an ever changing puzzle and you need to make sure the pieces fit. The definition of "occasionally" also factors in. Could Nick have chosen to present some situations that would be moving guys to positions they don't currently play? Sure. But that's pretty rarely done (unless you have a Mookie Betts) outside of injuries forcing it. Especially up the middle. There are limitations to what players can reasonably do. Correa goes down and you can't just plug Buxton into SS (full disclosure I've never seen Buxton field a grounder in the IF, but I assume he's not good enough to play SS in the bigs). So it's not just straight 26-man spot for 26-man spot, either. The Twins are full of guys who can't play up the middle.

https://www.mlb.com/video/gleyber-torres-lines-out-to-center-fielder-michael-a-taylor?q=Michael A. Taylor divin catch&cp=CMS_FIRST&qt=FREETEXT&p=0 Here's the most recent diving catch I found in the old video vault. Middle of April. I don't know about attempted diving catches, though.

Maturing before TD's very eyes.

If Miranda swings at 3 more balls over his head even though every living creature on the planet knows it's coming I'll be ready to put Gordon (or Gallo) at 3B fulltime!

Rocco as a player would actually have been a great fit on this squad! Well most every squad cuz he was really good.

We may get to see your plan play out today, and I may have to tip my cap if it plays out the way you hope it will.

"Unquestionably their best." Fine, you didn't say he's terrible, but you made it sound like he was nowhere near Duran. Interesting that you mention 13 innings, since it was 12 innings (and 4 earned runs allowed) for Lopez with the Twins last year before the hierarchy flipped, and he was no longer the closer and started pitching in the 8th with Duran finishing games. Duran has allowed 3 runs in 10.2 innings this year. So 13 innings doesn't sound too crazy. I'm not even suggesting Lopez should be the closer, but 13 relief innings of him being the better pitcher at not allowing base runners, or, more importantly, runs, is enough to say there's a question over who their best reliever is currently for me. Clearly not for you. To each their own. If Thielbar couldn't get outs in the 11th the game was over anyways. How is that "not remotely the same" as "if Thielbar can't get outs in the 8th the game is over?" That 1 extra at bat makes it not "remotely similar?" If me using the word "terrible" is "building arguments that aren't there" I think you use the phrase "remotely the same" is at least pretty close to "building arguments that aren't there." Because in both situations Duran was doing nothing but hopefully ensuring some other reliever was still going to have to get outs, and the offense was going to have to score. Using Duran anytime before the potential last inning of a close (+/- 1 run) game puts the team in the same situation of having to have other relievers get outs after him. You prefer that in the 10th, but not the 7th or 8th apparently? I don't see the drastic difference since it's the same arms likely having to get the outs. I see that as being pretty "remotely the same." I read "waiting for a save opportunity to use your best arm seems like a good way to let a few of those chances slip away." as saying Rocco screwed up, and the loss is at least a little on him. I read "I'd rather this club try to win an 11 inning game than predict the future, particularly with bullpen usage." as saying Rocco didn't give them a chance to win an 11 inning game by choosing to use a different reliever, and thus is at least a little to blame for the loss. If that's not how you meant it I apologize for misinterpreting your intention.

But a Buxton in the lineup. Now I don't know if I should be mad or happy! Rocco must be reading TD and finally figuring out how to do his job.

Dang, I don't listen to the broadcasts so didn't hear that. Now I've wasted a day and a half arguing about something that wasn't even an option. The internet wins again.

It wasn't a clean inning by any means, but he didn't give up a run. Being mad at, or however you want to express your negative feeling towards, Rocco for a guy not allowing a run feels like a little much. It is ok to throw RPs more than an inning. I don't think the idea of throwing Duran a 2nd inning there is crazy. But Rocco does throw guys more than 1 inning. Duran himself did it 13 times last year. Jax did it 13 times as well. Alcala did it in 4 of his 6 appearances this year. Pagan in 4 of his 9. Moran 4 of 10. Thielbar twice. I don't have nearly enough information on Duran, Jax, and Lopez to know what kind of conversations they've had, and why they seem disinclined to use those 3 for more than 1 inning, but as an overall approach Rocco clearly isn't afraid to use guys for more than an inning. As for pulling relievers in the middle of innings that's a much more complicated situation. What inning are they in? What's the situation? What has the pen usage been like recently? How many more games until an off day? Burning through a whole bunch of pen arms in 1 game can have some pretty poor effects on future games. We saw it last year. I don't want a repeat of that. Depending who the guy is there should be some leash to allow them to get through 1 inning. But I also like having Jax, Lopez, and Duran available for more games. There's a tradeoff there. I'm not someone who subscribes to the idea that you need to treat every game like it's darn near a "must win." There's 162 games. They're going to lose a bunch more. And you're going to disagree with a bunch more of Rocco's decisions. But being upset about putting in a guy who didn't give up a run feels like just reaching for things to complain about because you don't like Rocco. I mean that game was 5 years ago and it was his first playoff game. It may be ok to cut him a little slack and move on at this point. I don't think Rocco is some world beater. If he's fired tomorrow I'll thank him for his efforts and move on. He's whatever as far as I'm concerned. But he's also not completely inept. Whether we agree with the reasoning or not, there's reasons for everything he does, and that's all we can really ask for. They're informed decisions made with every intent to give the team the best chance to win. But you also never know how important not throwing a pitcher another inning is. Ryan going another inning Tuesday after his velo tanked at the end of the 6th could've lead to an arm strain. Maybe they have to push his next start back and then we're looking at Headrick, Sands, Winder, or SWR making his next start. Maybe it leads to an IL stint and those guys are making multiple starts instead of Ryan. Did Rocco save us from that situation? No way to know, but it's possible. The baseball season is far too long to ride the emotional rollercoaster game to game, or dissect every little move. If they lose the division by 1 game plenty of people will point back at individual games or decisions and blame Rocco for blowing it. But there's no way to point back at a game and say his decision caused them to win, and thus be so close to the division. But if decisions can lose games they also have to be able to win them. But not many people are tracking the decisions he made that they disagree with that turned out well. I mean you're counting the Stewart decision against Rocco despite him not giving up a run. Hard to be considered even an average manager when the only possible outcome is "you screwed up."

Miranda is becoming pretty worrisome for me. I didn't watch him at all before his big breakout, but the story was always that he was a free swinger, and it crippled his numbers. He fixed that and took off. But he sure looks to be back to his old ways. It's not even a secret anymore that once he gets 2 strikes on him they're throwing a fastball about 3 feet above the zone. He's going to have to stop swinging at it or Lewis/Lee is coming for his job much sooner than anyone was expecting. To tie this back to the topic of Larnach, they're both going to start feeling the pressure pretty quick as Kirilloff and Lewis return. Miranda has a little more cushion, but he'll run the risk of losing ABs vs lefties to Farmer soon. But it is really nice to have depth so they can make decisions based on performance more than just "well he's all we've got." I believe in both of them, but Larnach especially is running out of time.

He looks like he's trying to sit on off-speed now, and it's causing him to miss the fastballs he used to crush. That's a really bad combination when he's still struggling to hit off-speed. He's trying to make an adjustment, and that's what we should be expecting, but the Twins have finally gathered some depth so they likely won't be as patient with adjustments as they would've in the future. Nice for the team overall, but tough for individual players. Gordon seems to be figuring out his adjustment to take himself off the hot seat, and now it's Larnach who needs to get his straightened out, or he'll be making that adjustment in AAA. The bigger problem is that AAA pitchers may not be good enough for him to truly make the adjustment, and when he comes back he'll likely still have a major league adjustment to make and he'll still likely not have a lot of time to make it.

Brock Stewart didn't allow a run. Why are we upset that he pitched a guy who didn't allow a run? Jovani Moran pitched the 10th in Boston after Lopez, Thielbar, Jax, and Duran had all already pitched. Was Pagan so drastically better that we need to blame it on Rocco?

I argue for set roles that include situational relievers, and not set inning roles for everyone. I argue for a closer (Duran this year), a primary high leverage arm that's used in the 6th, 7th, or 8th depending on what is setting up as the highest leverage situation (Lopez this year), 2 secondary righty high leverage guys (only have Jax in that role this year), 1 lefty high leverage guy (Thielbar), 1 multi-inning arm used in 2 or 3 inning stints (Pagan, Alcala, and Moran have all been used in this role), 1 "middle reliever" (also the trio just mentioned), and 1 long guy who can go 3+ innings. Mostly I'm arguing that blaming Rocco for Tuesday's lose because he didn't use Duran to keep a game tied on the road when he used his 3 other high leverage arms, and his 1 non-high leverage arm didn't allow a run, is reaching. People's need to blame someone for every loss doesn't make sense to me. Sometimes you just lose. In baseball the best teams still lose 50+ times. It happens. I don't think Rocco is a great manager, but he's also not this inept, bumbling manager that people make him out to be. Rocco not using Duran Tuesday was defensible in many ways, but people don't like him so they want to chalk this up as another mark against him when the offense managed 2 runs in 10 innings, and weren't able to score the free runner on 2nd. That's not Rocco's fault.

I'm confused. Do you want them paying attention to what's happening on the field or not? Because that's what's on those tablets. They're watching their previous at bats, and videos of the pitcher's pitches. Would you prefer they're on the railing watching the pitcher from the side where they don't get an idea of how the ball really breaks or watching video on the tablet that shows them what the ball is actually doing? Would you rather them just do mental reps, or mental reps with the actual footage of the actual pitches they got, and their actual swings? The Twins not using those tablets would put them at a drastic disadvantage in 2023.

Jorge Lopez was a very deserving all star last year. You act like he was terrible. Duran was better in the 2nd half, but Lopez may have been the best reliever in baseball the first half. He's not Pagan or something. And I'm pretty sure we're talking about the game Tuesday so how they're doing this year is rather important, no? I'd rather have MAT at the plate right now than Correa or Miranda, yes. Not sure why that's crazy since the other 2 are awful right now. I'll just leave you with this: if it's so obvious that they should use Duran to keep a game tied for longer and "give them one more inning to hit" while worrying about the save later, why aren't fans up in arms about him not throwing last night in the 7th when it was tied? Or the 8th when they were only down 1? If that's the best way to win I assume you're upset at Rocco for screwing it up again last night.

Why is it unquestioned? Because he was better for the second half last year? Lopez has allowed fewer earned runs, and fewer base runners, in more innings this year. Duran is their unquestioned best strikeout arm, but that doesn't make him their unquestioned best relief arm. Lopez has been objectively better to start this season. And if nobody is asking him to throw every close game why are we mad at him not throwing in this close game? He doesn't have to throw every close game, but he was obviously supposed to throw in this one? I'm not seeing the strawman here. If you're going to pick out 1 close game and say Rocco was wrong for not using Duran you have to be able to explain why he shouldn't pitch in all the other close games. What makes it acceptable for them to not "give themselves a shot at another inning" in other close games? Just availability? Or are there any situations where the game is close, he's available, and it's acceptable to not use him, but rely on the 3 other guys you're counting on to get high leverage outs? If there's such a drastic drop off from Duran to Lopez, Jax, and Thielbar that it's crazy to use them instead in tie games the team is doomed. And all the managers in baseball have decided it's not the best way to win games. It's why they don't use their closers in the 9th inning or later unless they have the lead.

I mean it's not just 1 hit through 6, but that Terry Francona fella pulled his starter on April 18th of this very season after 3 hits through 6 innings and 87 pitches. 🤷‍♂️

They did use their best arm this season (Lopez has been their best reliever), and he blew the lead. Then they used their 3rd and 4th best arms. Their 3rd best arm lost the game. If throwing 3 of their 4 best arms, and having the non-best arm reliever they used not give up a run, isn't good enough to win an 11 inning game then there's a bigger problem. If Jhoan Duran pitching is the only way to secure 1 more inning to give them a chance to score they're doomed. If they can't trust Thielbar to hold a tie in the 10th they're doomed. If they need to throw Duran every close game he's not going to make it through the season. The Twins offense literally did have a runner on 2nd to start the 10th, and didn't score. So kind of wild I guess?

Using Duran doesn't solve the problem of other pitchers having to get outs. It can't. Losing in the 11th instead of the 10th isn't better, it's worse. It's why managers don't use their closer in extra innings on the road unless they have a lead. But maybe you watched the offense last night and thought they were just 1 inning away from really blowing that game open so should've used Duran because there was just such a great chance they'd drop a 5 spot in the 11th. And having 1 of 4 games against the Sox this year decided by more than 1 run (while averaging 3 runs a game against them) should make Rocco really confident that he'll have a blowout on his hands with his rookie pitcher on the mound making his 7th career start tonight so he probably won't need any of his top pen arms tonight so using them all last night wouldn't be a problem.

Not sure why the Twins would want Brad Hand. They didn't want him in the offseason so I don't think they'd want to then trade away assets to get him when he's given up 5 runs in 10.2 innings, including giving up runs in 3 of his last 4 appearances. It's more likely that Brad Hand is DFA'd before the deadline than someone is trading multiple assets for him. Scott Barlow has given up 7 earned in 11.1 innings this year, including multiple games of giving up 3 runs. It's entirely possible that he's looking better in a couple months, so he could be a possible target. Not sure Wallner would be the guy they traded for a reliever, but it's possible. I'm not concerned with Solano staying, I'm wondering why a completely rebuilding team in the Nationals would be interested in acquiring him. Let alone acquiring him for a guy they just drafted in the 2nd round in 2022.

I don't understand that stance, but to each their own.

It's not "restricting him." If Duran gets out of the 10th then Thielbar throws the 11th. If they'd used Duran in the 9th Thielbar, or whoever, had to throw the 10th. That's the point. When you're on the road in the 9th inning or later, of a tied game, using your best arm doesn't solve the problem of having to use your other guys. If they were at home I'd have expected him in the 9th or 10th. But not using him on the road makes sense because having used him in a tie game doesn't solve the problem. I'm all for using your best arms in the highest of leverage situations. They used a guy who hadn't allowed a run all season in the 7th, which was the highest leverage inning before it was tied, and he allowed a HR. It happens. You move on. But once it was tied going to Duran didn't solve the problem since they'd have to use someone else to close the game had the Twins taken the lead.

What did Rocco say? I don't watch post-game pressers because I don't think there's any value in it. Did Rocco say he just felt like taking Ryan out? What was the reason he gave? We all can see that his velo dropped. Everyone watching the game can see the velo on every pitch thrown. I don't expect Rocco to give deep dive explanations of why they took a guy out. They took Ryan out because they felt the best option for getting 3 outs in the 7th inning while giving up the fewest runs was Lopez. I don't need more of an explanation than that, but I understand some do. What if they thought Ryan had given 99% of what he had, and not all he had? What if their data, and Ryan's input, was suggesting he had 5-8 more pitches in him. Should they have sent him back out for those 5-8 pitches? Fair, I don't have any idea if it was overuse or what. But is fatigue, and overuse, not a concern for starters? Whether it was the, or a, factor in Mahle and Maeda isn't really the point. If they overexert a pitcher today because he has a 1 hitter through 6 and only 87 pitches does it not have an effect down the road? If the argument is you have to use starters for more innings to not overuse bullpen arms, is the same argument about not overusing starters logical? To me it looked like Ryan was running out of gas. His velo numbers seem to support that as well. Was it 100%, no-doubt-about-it the right answer? No. I can see why you, or anyone, would look at 87 pitches through 6 and want Ryan to go out for a 7th. But I also don't expect, or want, Rocco giving some in depth answer on what they're looking at to make those determinations. I believe Rocco, Maki, Ryan, and the rest of the decision makers last night wanted to win that game more than any of us on these boards so I trust that they were making a decision with that goal in mind. And it was a defensible decision. So I have no problem with it. But I also just see it as an example of the pitfalls of dissecting any decision made on any day, in any game. We simply don't have the info they do about the players to truly judge any individual decision. Maybe Ryan was feeling a little under the weather yesterday and that's why his arm was losing velo a little quicker than usual. Maybe he slept funny and his arm, or legs, or back, or whatever just wasn't quite right. Maybe a million things.

I don't disagree with you, but what if Ryan was spent and they send him back out and it leads to him missing his next start, or having it pushed back and now you're running Headrick, Winder, or SWR out there for a start that likely doesn't go as well, or last as long as Ryan would've. That's a possibility. Could leave Ryan in too long and end up losing a game because of it, plus it wears on his arm to the point that it effects future games as well. Now I have no idea what the evidence would say for how leaving a starter in for an extra inning and wearing out his arm is really like, but the Twins currently have 2 guys on the IL who's arms seemed to have been overused early. Just another side of the conversation.