chpettit19

What did Rocco say? I don't watch post-game pressers because I don't think there's any value in it. Did Rocco say he just felt like taking Ryan out? What was the reason he gave? We all can see that his velo dropped. Everyone watching the game can see the velo on every pitch thrown. I don't expect Rocco to give deep dive explanations of why they took a guy out. They took Ryan out because they felt the best option for getting 3 outs in the 7th inning while giving up the fewest runs was Lopez. I don't need more of an explanation than that, but I understand some do. What if they thought Ryan had given 99% of what he had, and not all he had? What if their data, and Ryan's input, was suggesting he had 5-8 more pitches in him. Should they have sent him back out for those 5-8 pitches? Fair, I don't have any idea if it was overuse or what. But is fatigue, and overuse, not a concern for starters? Whether it was the, or a, factor in Mahle and Maeda isn't really the point. If they overexert a pitcher today because he has a 1 hitter through 6 and only 87 pitches does it not have an effect down the road? If the argument is you have to use starters for more innings to not overuse bullpen arms, is the same argument about not overusing starters logical? To me it looked like Ryan was running out of gas. His velo numbers seem to support that as well. Was it 100%, no-doubt-about-it the right answer? No. I can see why you, or anyone, would look at 87 pitches through 6 and want Ryan to go out for a 7th. But I also don't expect, or want, Rocco giving some in depth answer on what they're looking at to make those determinations. I believe Rocco, Maki, Ryan, and the rest of the decision makers last night wanted to win that game more than any of us on these boards so I trust that they were making a decision with that goal in mind. And it was a defensible decision. So I have no problem with it. But I also just see it as an example of the pitfalls of dissecting any decision made on any day, in any game. We simply don't have the info they do about the players to truly judge any individual decision. Maybe Ryan was feeling a little under the weather yesterday and that's why his arm was losing velo a little quicker than usual. Maybe he slept funny and his arm, or legs, or back, or whatever just wasn't quite right. Maybe a million things.

I don't disagree with you, but what if Ryan was spent and they send him back out and it leads to him missing his next start, or having it pushed back and now you're running Headrick, Winder, or SWR out there for a start that likely doesn't go as well, or last as long as Ryan would've. That's a possibility. Could leave Ryan in too long and end up losing a game because of it, plus it wears on his arm to the point that it effects future games as well. Now I have no idea what the evidence would say for how leaving a starter in for an extra inning and wearing out his arm is really like, but the Twins currently have 2 guys on the IL who's arms seemed to have been overused early. Just another side of the conversation.

I would have saved him for a save situation so I'm not willing to make that assumption. If they used him in the 9th they still go to Thielbar in the 10th. If they use him in the 10th they go to Thielbar in the 11th. That's the problem with using your closer in a tie game on the road. If Rocco didn't say he was unavailable I don't think we can assume he was.

Did Rocco say Duran was unavailable? Or did he just not get used because there was no save situation? I honestly don't know if Rocco said he was unavailable after the game.

Can't be trusted so shouldn't be on the team is an interesting thing to try to argue against 1 game's bullpen use. If Stewart can't be trusted he shouldn't be on the team either, no? I don't understand your point. When was he supposed to have used Pagan or Moran last night? He used 3 of his 4 best relievers, and the other one he used didn't allow a run. What are we mad at? I don't know whether Duran was, or wasn't, available yesterday. Isn't it possible Rocco was saving him for a save situation? If they'd had the lead in the 9th or 10th do you know that they wouldn't have had Duran in at that point? Blindly blaming Rocco is no better than blindly being a Rocco apologist.

I'm all for finding some .900 OPS guys. You're talking a top 10-20 hitter in baseball. I, unfortunately, don't think the Twins are sitting on any surprise top 10 bats, though. Buxton is their best bet, but his body doesn't seem to want to let him be a full season top 10 guy if he also plays in the field. If Wallner is sufficient depth I'd be good with moving Kepler now for a lottery ticket (maybe Yanks want him with all their injuries?) to get Kirilloff up. But I'm not willing to destroy their defense by running Kepler or Gallo in CF. We'll see what the FO is willing to do to get him up here.

1. I don't think forcing Gordon into 3B innings is a path to finding better options. The 3B rotation isn't stopping Kirilloff from playing in the majors. 2. Don't like that analogy. The QB position is far more than athleticism, especially when Marino played. But Rodgers over Marino because Rodgers' added athleticism allows him to do things Marino couldn't. I'm not sure where "me first" comes from outside of him not being comfortable in CF, and thus not wanting to play there. The team also doesn't like to play him there. So they're on the same page. It's fans who want him to play there because he's done it in the past and they assume he's good there because he's good in RF. And they're wrong. The fact that he has done it shows that he's willing to do it if that's what's asked of him. But speaking up and saying he's not comfortable doing it is just being a good communicator, and I don't see it as me first. 3. 🧞‍♂️ 4. Neither of those guys are everyday guys to me either. That's my point. Brandon Lowe isn't an everyday guy because he can't/shouldn't hit against lefties. Him being successful because he avoids hitting against lefties doesn't make his overall numbers worthy of everyday play. I can concede that Kepler is an "everyday a righty pitches" guy right now. I think Gallo and Larnach are on the border of being everyday guys, even though Larnach is probably a step down right now. Kyle Garlick having 102 and 103 OPS+ the last 2 years doesn't mean he's an everyday guy because he only did damage against lefties. So I'll say I've probably used "everyday guy" incorrectly when speaking of the current lefties and Kirilloff. Right now they're all "everyday vs righties guys." And they just don't have room for that many guys because of Buxton at DH. PS. thanks for this fun, civil, respectful back and forth.

1. My point is that the Twins not putting Gordon at SS in 2021 was a sign they'd already determined that's not what he was. I'm all for utility, but putting someone at a position doesn't mean they can play it satisfactorily. Even if the walls don't cave in. Would the team collapse if they put Gordon at 3B 4 times a year? Of course not. But why do it when you have better options? 2. Yes, Gordon is a better CFer than Kepler. I won't quote zone metrics, I'll just say after having watched, and scored, game after game of major league fielding data Max Kepler, and Joey Gallo, are well, well, well below league average CFers. Gordon is slightly below average. I wouldn't put Max or Joey in CF unless it was literally my only option that day. They are truly bad defenders there. Max rarely sprints (it's really weird), and isn't even that fast anymore. The guys truly capable of playing CF have sprint speeds of 28 ft/s. Max is at 27, but isn't the type of athlete who uses it to max efficiency. Nick Gordon is only slightly below average partially because he's a slightly below 28 ft/s runner, and a better athlete who can maximize his speed better. Kepler is very stiff in almost everything he does. Gordon is very loose. Gordon is better. 3.🤝 4. Back to sprint speeds for CFers...everyone you listed there was a 28 ft/s, or better, runner when they played CF for the Rays. And the point of pointing out Kiermeier is that he wasn't a good hitter (ala MAT), but they still put him out there because they were willing to sacrifice bottom of the order offense (like with Siri now) for premium defense at a premium defensive position. The difference in athleticism between the Twins and Rays is startling. But 100% agreed that having Buxton back in CF would solve all of this. I'm ok with their slow rolling of him out there because I think his bat in the order 140 games is better than his glove in CF for 50. But I do expect to see him in CF as the season progresses or it's a gigantic waste of his talents. I wasn't talking about name recognition either. I'm pointing out that the Rays only have 3 "everyday guys," and the rest are primarily matchup dependent players. A lot of that comes down to our definitions of "everyday guy." To me it's a guy who you don't look at the starting pitcher for the opponent, you just write their name down. Correa, Buxton, Polanco types. The Rays have Diaz, Franco, and Arozarena they do that with. The rest are mix and match players who's performance they're able to maximize by playing matchups. But the Rays are also able to mix and match better than the Twins because of their superior athleticism and ability to move people between more positions without losing defensive abilities. The Twins are corner heavy while the Rays built through the middle. I'm also willing to be the Rays don't maintain their historic rate much longer, either. I agree that a team can have 13 guys all performing well at once. Many teams do at any given time. But maintaining it for an entire season is different. And the ability to mix and match those pieces adds to the complexity of the situation as well. Not to mention the number of comments that would flood gamethreads around here if Rocco started mixing and matching the lineup more than he already does!

I'm hoping they're just putting him on the left side of the infield to start because that's what he's used to and they just want him to be comfortable to start and get his groove back before expanding where he plays.

He's currently playing SS and 3B every other day, for 3 innings at a time, in extended spring training. Expected to start a more true rehab assignment in the coming days/week. Last report I saw a couple days ago said Lewis will play infield only for now, but there's a possibility he moves to the outfield later in his rehab. No solid plans beyond starting him at SS and 3B from the sounds of it. Will definitely be interesting to see what they do with him as he progresses towards the end of the month. I'd bet it depends on what Miranda is looking like for the Twins, and how they think the pieces can all fit together once Lewis is back. Him supplanting Miranda, to me, would not be an ideal situation. They cleared a spot for Miranda, so if he loses it 3 or 4 months into his stint that's not a good sign for him, or the team.

I'll add that they also want the pitchers they take to have control. It's the same formula Cleveland uses. College pitchers with control that they believe they can get more velo/"stuff" out of. Cleveland has dove a little more into the international waters, and taken some bigger risks (HS arms), but the general philosophy is the same.

1. I'm not talking about the offseason, I'm talking about the second half of the year after they'd traded away their best pitcher, and clearly given up on the year. If they had any thought of him being capable of playing SS at the major league level they would've given him more than 8 starts at SS instead of starting Simmons who had no future on the team. But they'd already decided he wasn't good enough to play the left side of the infield in the majors by then. 2. It's not about "role demands." Fine, Kepler should have no say in where he plays. No player should. Forget they're human and that their comfortability in the field leads to better results. Max Kepler is not a good CFer. He's a bad CFer. He always has been. His ability to stand there and catch balls that come right to him doesn't make him a CFer. Same with Gallo. I can go stand in CF and catch routine fly balls if that's all you want. But defense up the middle matters, and those 2 are not good enough CFers to play CF on a regular basis in the majors. 3. ☺️ 4. 10 of 11 is not 13, but sure, you could platoon your way to 13 guys who perform well when their matchups are optimized. It's the entire basis of the Rays organization. The Rays are an interesting team to look at. I'll concede they have few platoon splits when they face 11 straight righties, and only have 3 lefties on their roster who can play multiple positions, and a rotating DH spot. But they also start the weak hitting Jose Siri in CF nearly everyday (10 of 13 games he's been healthy for), and only play Josh Lowe out there as a lefty, because they care about defense. They'd never even consider Gallo or Kepler in CF. Josh Lowe has played 82% of their games against righties. Luke Railey 77%. Brandon Lowe has played 95% (sat 1 out of 22 games) against righties. They're currently in an 11 game stretch (they're likely to have 13 straight games before facing Rich Hill Thursday) of facing only righty starters. Before that those guys had played 91% (10 out of 11 games), 91%, and 100% of games against righties. So when there's any balance to their pitching opponents they platoon hard. They also have a rotating DH spot with Ramirez being the primary. The Twins have an everyday DH which makes it harder to cycle guys through. That's how we get down to the Twins cycling 4 guys through 3 spots instead of 3 guys through 6 spots (the Rays 3 lefties have played 2B, CF, LF, RF, 1B, and DH). That's how they keep them all over 75% playing time against righties. But the Twins guys can only play LF, RF, 1B, and DH. But, as we just established, DH is off the table right now. So the Twins can't do what the Rays do. Because the Twins don't have lefties who can play up the middle (unless we're fighting to add Gordon to the equation), and Buxton has the DH spot locked down.

1. When Gordon debuted the 75 year old Andrelton Simmons was playing SS for the Twins. They didn't trust Gordon to play over a completely washed up SS who had no future with the team. Sure, they trust him to play 2B, but not the left side of the infield which is where this conversation started. 2. I'd put my money on this being Kepler's last year with the Twins. There are all kinds of reports about him not liking CF, and the Twins not liking to put him there. They go back years. But this seems like one of those times where we just view things differently. If the goal is to win baseball games you have to take into consideration what your players are comfortable doing. He's not comfortable in CF. He's not good in CF. Why would you put that player in CF? He's either good enough to hold down the RF job or he's really not worth having around. Which leads to #3... 3. I'd put my money on this being Kepler's last year with the Twins. But that doesn't mean I'd sit him while he's playing well in April and May. That's why I said right now he deserves everyday playing time. If Kepler starts struggling my stance on his playing time would change. But right now he deserves playing time. 4. Not sure what the point is with the Rays. I've never said anything about not finding 13 guys who can play. The goal is to find more than 13 guys, actually, because you want depth. There's a difference between "13 guys who deserve to play" and "13 everyday guys." The Rays are actually a great example of the difference since they platoon guys so much. Diaz, Franco, and Arozarena are everyday guys for them. The rest are platoon guys. Brandon Lowe has started every game but 1 against a righty. He's sat every game but 1 against a lefty. Josh Lowe has started 0 games against lefties, and sat 5 times vs righties. Bethancourt and Mejia split the catcher duties much like Vazquez and Jeffers here. The difference between the Twins and the Rays when it comes to this is that they have a bunch of up the middle guys while the Twins don't. That's what ties this all together. The Rays have 3 guys they plug in somewhere in the top 4 of their lineup basically everyday. So do the Twins (Buxton, Correa, Polanco). The Rays then have their lefty bats that hit mostly against righties, and rarely against lefties. Just like the Twins. The difference is the Rays have multiple guys who can truly play CF. The Twins don't. CF is the holdup for the Twins right now (in my opinion). If Buxton was playing there, or 1 of their top 4 lefties were good enough to play it, Kirilloff would be on the Twins today. But none of that is the same as having 13 "everyday guys." The Twins have just as many guys who can play as the Rays. Neither team has anywhere near 13 "everyday guys." And the Rays pieces fit together better because so many of their guys can play up the middle. The Twins, as we've basically all been saying for years, have too many corner guys, and not enough up the middle guys.

That's the beauty of TD, and sports in general, right? My concerns or qualifications don't match yours and then we debate things that don't really matter, and life is grand! ☺️ 1. The Gordon breakdown is interesting. He's a ball player, I'll give you that. But couldn't one read his moving down the defensive spectrum as an indication that he really isn't a very good defender? Especially in the IF since he's been relegated to the OF. If he had to play there for a game it wouldn't be the end of the world, but would we rank him any better than 4th on the depth chart right now? I'd put, as overall players I'd want starting at 3B, the depth chart as Miranda, Farmer, Castro, Gordon. But I'm not a big believer in his bat, and I know some people are so could understand some differences in the Castro vs Gordon ranking. 2. Yes, Kepler has played CF for the Twins in the past, and by all reports it's been like pulling teeth. He doesn't like it. I understand some fans are of the belief that a player's preferences shouldn't be taken into account, and they should play where they're told, but I'm not one of those fans. These are humans, and if he dislikes it as much as it sounds like he does he shouldn't play there. Not to mention comparing his RF defensive metrics to his CF metrics. He's not a good CFer. Same with Gallo. He's played there, but neither of them are guys you want there unless it's an emergency. But in Kepler's case you're putting a bad fielder in CF who also doesn't want to be there. Doesn't sound like a winning formula. 3. Agreed on Gallo. But I'd add Kepler to that, too. Right now. Today. Kepler has been one of their best hitters since he returned from the IL. I wouldn't bet on him keeping that up, but I wouldn't yield any of his time when he's hot. Larnach is the one who's mostly been average of late so I could see him yielding some time. But, since I think it's 4 guys for 3 spots, there's not enough yielding to be done from Larnach alone to make sense calling up Kirilloff. And I love Kirilloff. I think he's a star. Him and Lewis are the future of this team as far as I'm concerned. But splitting LF starts between Larnach and Kirilloff doesn't sound like the right plan to me. Is it possible to find 13 everyday players? Sure, but there's a lot of stuff to unpack there, too. Like the humanity side of things again. Professional players have egos. Telling an everyday guy he has to sit 20-25% of the time doesn't always work out that well. And there's also the definition of "everyday player." Yours and mine may be different. That seems to be the case right now since I feel Kepler and Larnach are currently playing at a level that deserves everyday run. You don't. But, again, that's the beauty of sports!

I'd take him over Solano at 2B vs a righty, but we have Polanco back so there's no real spot for him there.

First, I don't think any of that is crazy. But I think it's more complicated than simply "5 guys for 4 spots." I don't want Kepler or Gallo anywhere near CF (well I suppose LF and RF are near CF). They're not CFers. And Gordon isn't a 3B, so I don't want him there even if it's "on occasion." Castro is currently the backup at 3B and SS. He'll go down for Farmer who will take the backup 3B and SS role he was supposed to have to start the season. But, as of right now, I think Gallo, Kepler, and Larnach are all playing at a level that dictates they have the playing time adjusted in their favor. That's really the "problem." You may disagree, and that's all good. I don't think any of them currently deserve to sit 20% of the time. That's a 130 game starter over a full season. I think they're all playing well enough to deserve more than that. I'm not suggesting they stop "looking for better." I'm suggesting that there's not enough ABs at the major league level for how I feel the players currently on the roster are playing, mixed with the combination of positions they should be playing. To me it's 4 guys for 3 spots (if you call up Kirilloff, and aren't playing Buxton in CF), and now you're rotating them all out 25% of the time if it's evenly split. And I don't think any of them should be rotated out that frequently, and if even 2 of them are rotated out less frequently than that you're looking at 1 or 2 of them basically becoming bench pieces. And I don't think that's the best use of resources. Castro being on the bench for pinch running, and as a defensive backup, isn't a "wasted 26 man spot" to me. You're never going to have 13 position players that deserve everyday playing time, and a utility player like Castro is useful. I don't know that he's anymore or less useful than Gordon. Because Gordon can't play the left side of the infield. Gordon's problem is he's not as good defensively as Taylor, and Taylor is hitting well enough that Gordon's bat doesn't make up for his glove in CF. And every other position he can handle (2B and LF) is covered by a better left handed (or switch) bat. To summarize: Larnach, Gallo, and Kepler all deserve to be more than a 130 game starter (if you go by your 5 for 4 spots), and definitely deserve to be more than 120 game starters (if you go with my 4 for 3 spots) right now. That may change, or one may get injured, but 20-25% is too much to sit any of them, and if you do less than that with any of them then at least 1 of them is sitting more than 25% of the time and you're looking a 100-110 game starter and none of those guys deserve that right now. And Gordon needs to out hit Polanco or Taylor by a lot, or Larnach at all, to get playing time. I'm just not as comfortable as you seem to be playing guys in positions they aren't good enough to play.

I don't think they trust Gordon on the left side of the infield, and I don't know if they'd want Kirilloff up to sit on the bench. Miranda or Correa going down wouldn't open a spot in the lineup for Kirilloff so I wouldn't be surprised by a Castro call to backup Farmer and whichever other left side of the infield is still there.

Agree with all but Taylor. I think they'd actually bring Castro back if Taylor went down. Assuming it's at a point where they're still not playing Buxton in CF. I don't think they have any interest in playing Gordon vs lefties, or a bad defender in CF, so Castro would be the call to play CF vs lefties. If Buxton is back playing CF I'd agree with your most likely Kirilloff, perhaps Garlick stance.

MLB Trade Rumors says the Twins are also getting a PTBNL in the deal which is more than I'd have expected.

I mean that triple wasn't exactly him hitting one to the gap and using his top end speed to beat it out. It bounced 100 feet away from the right fielder after hitting the limestone. I agree that Kirilloff will be optioned and is waiting for an injury, or Buxton to start getting time in CF. They built this team on pitching and defense, and I don't see them sacrificing all that defense in CF to get him in the lineup. Doesn't seem to be their style. Edit to add: Looks like Kirilloff was officially activated, and optioned, yesterday. So it's not a guess anymore, AK is in AAA for a bit at least still.

I think Gallo's ability to play CF is greatly overstated around here. He's played 7 innings of CF since 2019, and wasn't good. He was serviceable there in the 20-teens because he could run. He's not unathletic now, but he doesn't run like he did then. He had a sprint speed of 28 ft/s back then. He's down to 26 now. Basically he was as fast as MAT back then, and now he runs like Miranda. Would you want Miranda's speed in CF? Miranda's sprint speed is 26.2 ft/s this year. Gallo's is 26.3. Putting Joey Gallo in CF on a regular basis would be a disaster. He's a "break glass in case of emergency" CF option now. Putting him in CF wouldn't make them a better team.

They play different roles on the team. Solano is likely replaced by Lewis when he's good to go. But keeping a lefty who can't crack the lineup frequently (he is in there today) against righties vs keeping a righty who starts every game against lefties doesn't really solve the Gordon problem.

My guess is Gordon has until Buxton starts playing CF some, and Kirilloff is called up, to show he can hit again. At that point it's DFA and hope for a trade, or likely lose him on waivers if they can't get a lottery ticket out of anyone. Gordon was scorching hot in August last year, but fell apart again in September. He's had 3 incredible months of hitting, but not much of a track record beyond that. I hope he gets a chance somewhere, and I hope he succeeds, but I don't see a role for him on the Twins for much longer.

The offense seeming to finally figure things out makes this a tougher situation. The 3 "everyday" lefties are all performing well, and I don't think they'll want to bring Kirilloff up to sit on the bench like Gordon. Castro is their backup SS right now so they won't send him down until Farmer is back to take that role. Gordon or Solano are the 2 most likely to be replaced, but I wouldn't think they'd DFA Solano for a lefty. My guess is Lewis takes his job eventually. My guess would be that Gordon has until Buxton starts getting time in CF to earn his spot. The Twins have said that mid-May is when that could be happening. So 2 more weeks? I'd guess Kirilloff takes Gordon's spot if Larnach keeps hitting, and Gordon doesn't. You can then have Kirilloff, Kepler, Gallo, and Larnach all in the lineup vs righties when Buxton is in CF. As for the medical stuff, the reports from the Twins beat writers yesterday was that Paparesta said Kirilloff playing back to back 9 inning games (which he just did) was the end of the medical stuff. Basically they'll track him for a couple days and make sure he's good, but he has the medical greenlight, and it's just a baseball decision now.

I didn't see anything from Hayes, but Do-Hyoung Park said "Paparesta says with this, they've done what they've needed to do from a medical standpoint, and it just becomes a baseball decision soon."