DocBauer

I hate discussions like this, even though they are fun and interesting, because it's almost impossible to pick 4. And hell, we could even make a Rushmore based on ONLY being a Twin, or maybe a 75 % career Twin, etc. Be that as it may be...my grudging $.02. I LOVE me some Bert. He is one of the greatest SP in Twins history. And to this day I believe he should have been in the HOF way before he was. BUT...he had a lot of his career outside of wearing a Twins uniform. And despite being a Twins player, broadcaster and ambassador I'm going to have to leave him off the list. [Yuck!] Killer, Carew, and Puckett are so obvious and for so many reasons that I just stop there. At 56yo, Oliva is a Twins LEGEND that my youth remembers only for his last few years as a Twin, as a ballplayer. I absolutely know his career as a player, a coach, an instructor, and an ambassador. I've always felt he was such an amazing ballplayer and producer of amazing numbers he never should have been penalized for injuries that cut his career short. He ABSOLUTELY was deserving of being in the HOF way before he was. Mauer isn't just a good story as the "hometown kid who did good". For 6+ years it could be argued he was one of the best catchers in the history of MLB. He did some things NEVER done before in ML history before his concussions. He, and Oliva, suffer from a "well you didn't do it for 10yrs due to I jury" syndrome. But as much as I adore and respect Oliva, I think I have to place Mauer for the 4th spot for what he did while at the catcher position.

Picks to click? I'd love to select Urbina or Rodriguez as super talented young players, but I'm really looking for them to still adjust and grow and not necessarily breaking out. So I have a couple: POSITION PLAYER: 1] Severino. He started to grow in 2021. I think he's ready to take the next step. 1A] Will Holland. He's a 5th round pick who looked like a top prospect before a poor junior season but signed after 2019. He barely played when signed and then missed 2020 like everyone else. He had a mediocre 2021 at best. He could make a real jump in 2022. 3] Wander Javier. It could be easy for him to say WTH, and move on. But I don't see that with him. I think he's grown in to his body and the baseball gods are going to shine on him and he's going to be healthy. I ALMOST want him to be #1, but I can't due to history. But I have a feeling where talent, time, work, and just time/luck is going to shine on him. PITCHER: I just can't pick Hajjar because hes a 2nd round pick who hasn't debuted yet. But I have 4 guys that are PRIMED to "click". And that's a GOOD THING! 1] Canterino. If he's healthy, he's on a rocket to finish at AAA if not a ML appearance. Limited IP makes him "elgible" for this list. 2] SWR. He's been bounced around and had the whole Olympic thing disrupt his development. Unless something happens unexpectedly, he's going to be able to get good coaching, settle down, and just PITCH and develop with some stability for the 1st time in a couple years. He'll probably throw at Wichita for the full season and that's OK. He needs that. Doesn't mean he doesn't break out. 3A] Povich was a surprise to me, even as a Husker fan. I think the Twins saw control and the ability to fill out physically, and add velocity, and maintain control. But I was surprised by reports of new velocity. Early returns are more than I expected. I don't think he can be dismissed . 3B] Raya. Truth be told, I WANT to put this kid #1 on my pitcher list. He was my favorite 2020 draft choice because I just 'felt" there was "something" there besides pitching in big games and numbers. Something about his stuff and attitude reminded me of Berrios, right or wrong. I thought we drafted a HS pitcher, always a big risk, that had the stuff and makeup to succeed. I was so disappointed he didn't pitch in 2021. But then I hear how good he looked in IL and I'm starting to think he and Petty might be a great duo at Ft Myers to begin 2022. DARK HORSE: Legumina and Mooney could surprise.

100%! I could see, kinda hope, that Julian will be an even better version of him in a year or so. And I just spent time on 2 different posts speaking about the actual value of a 2B and how different teams may construct their lineup and the value of different hitters in different spots,, as well as if Arraez spent time strengthening his lower half how it might lead to better health and maybe even additional pop/power even without changing his approach. BUT, I find it a bit ironic with all that has been said, and possible trade "speculation" in regard to the A's, Arraez would seem to be a perfect Moneyball acquisition for them as PART of a deal. I'm in no hurry to move him. I think we see the same value he presents to the Twins at this time. Just interesting that he seems to be a fit if such a trade were to take place.

I just wanted to add that any work to strengthen his lower half to strengthen joints, legs, etc, could also shift his overall strength index. Simply, by building his body a bit better, he might also provide more "oomph" in his contact which could lead to more XB pop/power, without changing his swing/approach.

I think this is a great question. IMO, 2B has gone through a transformation that occurred between 15-20yrs ago at SS, and CF to a degree. I'm speaking of watching baseball since the 70's, but I think my thoughts go back decades before. When we think about 2B "back in the day", it was a defensive position for someone who couldn't stick at SS. But the game back then was more station to station and bunting, hit and run, stolen bases, etc. Of course, SS has always been a defense first position. For decades, those spots were defense, and with little exception, you had light hitters you hoped had speed, or contact ability to move runners, etc. But over time, teams began putting their best athlete more and more at SS. And I'm sure advancements in training had an affect as well. Suddenly you began to see the A-Rods, Jeter's, etc, make SS an offensive position with these tremendous athletes. But 2B became a similar version. Much like an OF bat you can't put in RF or CF, you place them in LF. Of course there are exceptions. I grew up seeing Wilfong and Randal and others playing for the Twins at 2B. But it was a LONG time between Carew and Knoblauch! And then a number of years before Dozier. And I'm NOT saying your 2B can't be good defensively, but it has evolved in to a legitimate offensive position. Polanco, Altuve and others are current examples. I believe 2B has perhaps even more value in today's game than it used to because you can place a great bat there that simply can't play SS to the level you want defensively. It's not "hiding" a bat...but it kinda is in a way. Now, what VALUE any player has on a team at ANY position is still up to the team to decide. I mentioned CF briefly before. I never saw Mays play. But I watched Griffey, Puckett and others almost re-define the position from a fast guy who could field to a guy who could hit and bring power. So what's really changed is "old fashioned" roster construction. There used to be certain precepts of how you built a lineup and where you expected your offense to come from. And I know this reference is dated, but Boggs was a leadoff hitter at 3B for Boston for years instead of being a middle of the order bat. Again a dated reference, but Downing was a simi,similar, no speed leadoff hitter for the Angels who could hit, get OB, and provide power. These were precursors for Beane and his Moneyball approach that has continued to re-shape the modern game. This is also why I've stated previously that if you have hitting and power across your lineup from WHATEVER positions, does your DH HAVE to be a power hitting RBI entity? How about a guy who sets the table? So all of this is not necessarily to pump up the value of Arraez directly, but to address your question about 2B. It's as valuable as any other lineup spot, a place where you can place a tremendous bat, but every teams lineup construction is different.

Yes. They are very different ballplayers at this point. Arraez is the better hitter, by quite a lot at this point, and the OB machine. Gordon brings a speed element we have little of, can cover SS at least so-so, and seems to play a passable CF. And I think it's dangerous to not have 2 utility types. The issue with keeping both of them is maybe not having room for Miranda until someone gets hurt.

Echoing chpettit19 that Arraez has real value and it's much easier to say "move him and we'll be just fine" and it's another thing to actually make that happen. He fills a very different skill set as a batter that this team sorely lacks. And right now, his best, eventual replacement options on the roster are probably a season away. But if moving him makes good sense to bring in a quality SP as part of a deal, I get it and am not saying no. I do question Arraez AND a pair of top 10 prospects though. If with the Twins, I would absolutely continue to work with him in LF. I e seen worse, and he has room to be better. Being able to come off the bench and play 3 spots instead of 2 as well as DH just makes him that much easier to fit in the lineup. And I'd have him batting #1, working counts, and getting OB almost every single day.

I feel the need to be less polite than I normally am in regard to Martin. Can we just let the kid play a little ball before we dismiss his ability or promote him to All Star status? Whew! The kid is a super athlete, like Lewis, and considered a TOP prospect. But virtually overnight he's gone from a potential #1 pick to the 5th pick, to missing 2020, debuting at AA and holding his own PLUS! And opinions have him lacking a position to questionable power despite a good bat and great OB ability. Some seem to think he should be in LF almost immediately. Can we just pause for a moment to slow roll Martin? We should, without diminishing his potential or skill set. 1] What he did with his bat jumping from a lost year to AA shouldn't be discounted. He has "bat" potential. 2] Not only was he jumping to pro vs college after a lost season, but he was fighting a wrist injury. He has inate power in himself, but the wrist has to be healthy, and I'm sure it will be. Then it becomes trusting his approach as well as his stroke, and that's where coaching comes in to play. 3] Said it before and will say it again, he should continue to play as much SS as he can. Why wouldn't you? The WORST that could happen is he's a fill-in at SS. Hell, he might surprise and a bulb turns on and he suddenly feels comfortable there. 4] I see him as a LF, and soon, who can cover Buxton in CF, and can cover 2B/SS/3B as needed. He might end up being a full time player at the top of the order who plays everywhere. And there is tremendous value in that. Think a better version of Marwin. And isn't that the way baseball has been heading? Versatility. He MIGHT surprise us all at SS. But I see him as our 2023 LF. I think power will come. And he doesn't have to be a 25--30HR hitter to play LF. Who decided LF was a questionable defender with power? They Royals had a Gold Glove defender and offensive force for years with Gordon. The Twins did great with Hatcher and Gladden in LF. Ideally, soon, Lewis will take over SS, and Martin will be a "do everything" LF who covers CF and will be able cover some infield if needed. Lewis could easily be a STUD in LF. But how about we just give I'm a full 2022, only his 2nd pro season to see what he does first.

Busy 48hrs so late to this OP. A lot of very interesting posts made and just not enough time to address each one directly as I might prefer, so I'm going to make a couple bullet point comments while leaving Martin out of the conversation for what should be obvious reasons. 1] I think AK is going to be very good. I can't and won't try to explain his poor 2021 ST. But he looked downright dangerous when he was brought back up. I think he's just fine in the OF, though probably only average. TODAY, he might be the Twins LF even though 1B is probably his destination. Not because he's a poor OF, but because he just looks so fluid and natural at 1B. I HATE making comparisons to established players, but I think he will be "Morneau-like" as a hitter and defender. 2] I think Larnach is being under-sold due to his poor performance after his initial introduction. He wasn't quite ready enough, or polished enough, to stick. Tom did a great comparison recently that in their first 50 games in 2021, Larnach actually was as good or better than AK. He probably has the better arm. He won't be Kepler defensively in RF, but will probably be as good or better bat with as good or close to arm. Being rushed and needing a re-set after a great initial audition shouldn't diminish his potential. BTW, a lot of what I just stated about Larnach also applies, in slightly different ways, to Jeffers, Rorvedt and Celestino. Rooker....he has opportunity and now he needs to prove it. NOW, on to Lewis. Defense: I have NOT watched him daily. Not sure how many of us have. He has the athleticism, speed, quickness, range, and arm strength to make all the plays. I've seen enough hilights and ST games here and there to witness he has the ability. So if the only real problem is just making sure he can make the "routine" plays, then I'm not that worried. Routine plays come from experience, work, and even coaching. It comes down to positioning and basic fundamentals. There is also a mental aspect that means you have to engaged each play. I doubt anyone doesn't believe in Lewis's work ethic and dedication. So if routine plays are a concern, they shouldn't be. BUT, you only get better the more you play! Further, just as a side note, if you've ever taken time to examine the milb and early career defensive numbers of past great and established ML SS...and 3B...you would see a propensity of errors early in said careers with little exception. Offense: Lewis has inate power and speed. He seems to have "bat" ability, or has at least flashed it. In 2019 he was working through an injury and I'm sorry, but I can't recall right now what it was. A wrist? The FO saw enough, believed enough, that they promoted him to AA where his offensive numbers were nearly identical, though not great. Seemingly fully healthy, he was sent to the AFL but was forced to play various spots besides SS. All he did was hit like crazy and earn MVP. I read where someone stated the AFL doesn't have good pitching. I'd sure like to see proof of that as the AFL rosters have always been considered A+ and AA equivalence prospect and milb wise. We honestly, unfortunately, have NO IDEA, how good Lewis looked in 2020 at the alternate site. We hear good to great reports. But is that defense, offense, BOTH? As fans, we just don't know. But at least he was playing a little and being coached. At least he didn't lose 2020 totally. But then 2021 happened. And it STINKS! He is the most exciting and talented player the Twins have drafted since Buxton. I BELIEVE in the kid and his talent and his future. What I don't believe in...as a cautionary person...is that he's some kind of bust if he isn't ready mid 2022. LET HIM PLAY. I would start him out at Wichita and play him daily and promote him to AAA as soon as he looks ready. And I would be extatic if he was ready late in 2022 or ready to compete in 2023.

Hey Mike, sorry I didn't respond earlier, but I got busy and the thread was getting derailed from Miranda. But I felt bad not responding to you. It's not that I don't think Story is a bad ballplayer or that I don't want him. And it's not that I want ownership to pocket unspent money. In fact, I WANT them around $150M and I think they can afford that. In fact, as I've stated before, I'd be excited and optimistic if they DID sign Story. My concern is the financial cost of $20-23M for 4-6yrs for which version of Story we'd be signing. It's been argued, against my trepidation, that his significantly lower OPS on the road vs at home in Coors Field...I believe it's a good 100 points or so...is dismissable as most players have a lower OPS away from home, and sometimes a Rockies player might even make adjustments on a road trip over time away. Not an unfair point. HOWEVER, NOT playing half his games in Coors Field as his home park makes his "road" career OPS in the lower .700's that much more important to me, IMO. Now we're talking Target Field as his 81 HOME games, along with another 81 road games, ALL away from Coors Field and the influence on his career numbers. I'm sorry, but committing $20-23M for 4-6yrs for a good SS with power and speed ability, but an OPS that seems to be defined by his previous park and would appear to have low .700-ish threshold sounds like a potential "over buy" to me. Tom made a great comment in one of his podcasts a couple weeks ago that it's a GOOD THING if Lewis proves himself and becomes everything we want and hope and believe in, AND we have Story. I couldn't agree more! But I am cautious, maybe overly cautious, for allocating those funds on that sizeable commitment when a solid stop-gap might be in play and maintain that financial flexibility for future additions and extensions 2023 and beyond. So I am NOT anti-Story at all! But again, I have trepidation.

Hit a bad button and lost my response. GRR! Have to regroup. LOVE the post!! Agree JD is no reason to not sign Story. But I will contend that I'm not sure signing Story is the right move. JD's contact will be gone in 2+ years regardless if traded or not. And currently, there are no major financial obligations other than Buxton which are fair, manageable, and incentive based. IF the Twins signed Story I would be happy, hopeful, and I would be crossing my fingers. First, he's a quality SS. Second, he provides power and some speed and SB opportunities, much less an extra base opportunity. But unless I'm mistaken, his career OPS away from Coors Field drops significantly about a 100 points to somewhere around. 720-740. With good defense and power and decent speed he's absolutely worth something. But $20-23M for 4-6yrs? I'd have to pass on that! I LOVE a comment Tom made on a recent podcast that having Story "in the way" of Lewis proving his worth is a good problem to have! But I'm really struggling with Story being worth the $ value being placed on him. And I think that is part of the reason he wasn't part of the FA frenzy that happened before the lockout. I'm 100% behind you in regard to letting prospects "force" their way on to a roster. There are those few talents, like a Mauer, where there is really no decision to be made. But they are few and between. Miranda had one of the best milb seasons EVER in the system. And one thing a lot of media forgets, he wasn't some flier mid or late round surprise. He was a young early round selection the Twins have just been waiting to put it together. He did that in 2021. But when you look at a roster crunch to begin 2022, what do you do if everyone is healthy? Forget service time because it's not always about that. IF the roster is healthy, Miranda is best served playing daily at St Paul and coming up as probably the 1st guy. Hell, even Arraez has more experience in LF than he does. Don't make another "Sano to RF just because" experiment. IF he doesn't just rake and "fit in" to a different position, LF, then for his sake and his future, let him play daily until opportunity arises. And it will. Of course, injury or trade will adjust the roster. AK is the future at 1B. It may not be the beginning of 2022 depending on trades. But it's his eventual home. But don't mess with Miranda. I agree with that. Play a few spots that feel comfortable and just wait for openings. And they will come/happen. And it could happen from day 1 or a month in. But don't mess with what you have. Defensively? Gaetti, Koskie, Plouffe, 30yrs of quality 3B who weren't supposed to be good there but turned out to be good to outstanding. Focus on Miranda being a 3B and he will be just fine at 3B. But it's OK if everyone is healthy and ready to go whenever this lockout nightmare ends. Just let him get his stuff together and be ready.

That 3rd pitch coming together is the key. And it seemed like it was happening last year. I'm also encouraged by 97IP in 2021 when so many guys had sore arms at one point or another that held them back and limited them. The AAA club is not just about prospect status. Sometimes a team wants to hold on to a couple AAAA guys as fliers and depth pieces for the parent club. Guys do get promoted from AA ball. So I wouldn't be shocked if he gets a month at Wichita just to put rosters in place and sort everything out. Now I think he's ready for St Paul and that's where I'd place him. But prospects and depth pieces, I wouldn't be shocked or angry if he got that 1st month lower. My hope is that he's in AAA to begin the season. He has the stuff and potential to be very good. And this FO hasn't been shy about promotions. I think he's more than ready to finish working on his stuff and gaining additional experience in St Paul. He could be a mid-season call up.

I'm of the general opinion to be risk adverse on a high draft selection and draft the very best player available regardless of position. And if that player is at a position of depth in my system already, so what. Get the most talent you can and sort it out later. Where I'm OK taking chances are later in the 1st, like Petty this year. That being said, sometimes a player falls in your lap and the risk/reward has to be considered. But a potential injury, or one waiting to happen, holds true for every drafted arm, yes? Let's say Boras is being genuine here and the recent medicals match previous ones. Your team's staff will have to make the call that he's sound and they don't see an abnormal risk. Maybe the Mets were spooked by something the Twins, and other teams, wouldn't see or be overly concerned with. But it does seem a bit odd that the Mets, with all their money, would back off. But if he pitches in independent ball and looks great and is as healthy as can be, would he even be available for the Twins at 8? Would someone pounce on him? There's a lot to like in Rocker for sure. Now, if he doesn't look great, or refuses to be thoroughly examined, it's a hard pass without even blinking. Let someone else take a gamble late in the 1st and take the risk. Not sure I see the stars lining up here. He pitches great and the medicals check out, he might be gone by 8. He DOESN'T pitch, for whatever reason, then I'm skeptical even if the medicals do look OK. He's rusty and I have the feeling something is being kept from me. Maybe he's just a victim of bad circumstance and is a real steal for someone and the Mets just messed up. But right now, too many unknowns. Now, he looks great in independent ball and my medical staff sees no great risk and the other 7 teams picking ahead of me pass for some reason, he's in my "plan A" consideration. In February, with milb and independent ball just getting ready to crank up, he's off my board in the 1st round.

Great post. I think the age debate has some merit. It could also be debated/shown how many quality pitchers matured late and went on to great careers, as well as hiw many debuted early and flamed out. What I think we have to remember is all of these kids are a year younger "prospect wise" than their physical ages.

Keith Law, and just about any paid observer/scribe/former FO employee has forgotten more about baseball and prospect evaluation than I will ever know. Period. And who am I? Just a fairly smart person of 56yo who has been watching baseball most of his life and eating up everything from Baseball Digest to the Sporting News and Baseball America, to just about every baseball website you can imagine since the internet became a real "thing" 20yrs ago. I've seen Gooden and King Felix be the best pitchers ever before burning out. I've seen Clemmons being a STUD from pretty much day one. I've seen Randy Johnson being the best prospect in baseball struggle, be OK, and then suddenly dominate. Ive seen Stieb and Key being OK prospects and pitchers turn in to ACES and dominate when they weren't expected to. Yada, Yada, etc, etc. I've also witnessed countless TOP pitching prospects who never made it. Going back in time a bit, the 90's A's had 4 young pitchers that were supposed to maintain their window, lead by Todd Van Poppel, the second coming of Nolan Ryan. None of that happened. Conversely, ugly as it is to remember, it was just shy of this time the Twins had a collection of pitching talent that was supposed to lead them to a WS. None of them contributed to '87 or '91. Law would destroy me in a debate, as would others about prospects or the history of. But I could care less based on history.. What I DO KNOW is that projecting SP is an almost hopeless exercise. History has proven that to be true.. But the more arms you have, the better your chances to find quality pitching. According to the OP, didn't Law put Balazovic in his top 100 before anyone else? Well, he was awesome and then was shut down to protect him. That's not abnormal for any team post 2020, or the injury factor. Strotman was ranked higher in the Ray's system than Ryan before TJ. Where is Law on this? SWR was a top 100-150 prospect almost since drafted. But young for AA and a mediocre season at best, how does he "stink" now? Ober put up video game numbers as a less than high selection but had injury concerns. Suddenly he finds a repeatable delivery that keeps him healthy, AND makes adjustments during his rookie season to get better. But coming in to 2021 he was what, a late 20 or early 30th ranked prospect? A year ago, did most fans/writers know who Winder and Varland were? A lot of things can change in ONE YEAR in regard to prospects. A year ago, Miranda was a high draft prospect with a decent bat that could be very good. Now he's a top prospect in all of baseball. Keith Law says the Twins pitching prospects are not above the medium? Despite the fact he's ranked Twins prospects high previously? Sucks, he could be right. But, come on, there's just too much stuff and too many good arms here. And history has shown you really don't know what the hell you have until they actually pitch. Numbers and talent say we have a couple quality arms that will be part of our 2022-2023 and beyond. History states a couple will be very good, a couple solid, a couple will find a role in the BP. But nobody will surpass the medium? It may take time, but I call BS. At least a couple will match Berrios or better. Just too many arms and too much arm talent .

I had to re-post this because a "like" can't display how much I want to "double like" or "love" this post. And it's NOT about Law, and I will comment further, but this post is just spot on with content/opinion. More to follow.

You may not be rational, but your thoughts/hopes aren't unfounded or ridiculous. With very little exception, virtually all SP take a season or two to learn, grow, and adapt and "become" what they are going to be, more or less. Just in regard to Twins history, the aforementioned Radke looked decent as a rookie, but was far better after his first year or two. Berrios, for all his stuff and future results, didn't debut with great results. Gibson is similar, though he was never as good as Berrios. Now, that doesn't mean a SP can't continue to get better! Pitching is an ART, and NOT pure velocity. If it were, then the road to success wouldn't be paved with the failed careers of mid to upper 90's fastball failures. (Hope that doesn't sound mean). To take it a step further, again with little exception, the guys who achieve ACE status, are utterly unpredictable. They "happen", and generally speaking, they "happen" over time. But back to your irrational thinking, LOL, Ryan is smart, athletic, and determined. (Berrios characteristics). And he's off to a great start, in SSS. The difference between the two is pure velocity. And again, velocity is NOT everything. (Radke comparison again). Ryan's FB plays faster. His control is already solid. As I stated earlier, his secondary stuff was better than reported initially. But without pure velocity to fall back on, he needs to continue to refine his secondary stuff as well as his knowledge/ART of pitching. But that is going to be true of ALL of the Twins prospects, some of whom have that better velocity. So that's not to shade your thoughts/hopes at all. I also like this guy a lot. He could be just as good, just different. But we probably won't know for sure how good he might be until 2023, no matter what he does in 2022. And this holds true for Ober, and everyone who appears in 2022.

Love his control and was surprised how good his slider and change looked when I watched him. While I'm certain there remains room for improvement, what I saw was ML ready and solid across the board. Bad games happen for everyone, so I'm not too worried about his last game. Again, these things happen. But as I recall, he was off schedule slightly after attending a family funeral.

Heavy agreement with Dman as well as Jacksson on most points. I'm not entirely sure a trade for Montas, or any of their available 3, is as big as projected here as the A's are VERY mindful of their payroll...and cutting it...while being mindful of young, inexpensive talent to develop for the future. By their previous MO they may be very pleased to pick up a Gipson-Long arm, possibly pushing for Varland, and might be interested in a power bat such as Wallner, who SO too much but will also take BB. And while I'd hate to see him go, Arraez could be a perfect money-ball addition to their team. If it's a deal more like that I could be in. But it makes no sense to trade Berrios...despite his 7yr deal that the Twins didn't feel like doing...and then turn around and basically trade that same value away for a 2yr controlled pitcher, even one as good as Montas. It doesn't speak to sustainability to acquire and then immediately trade those kinds of assets for 2yrs unless they would feel confident in a re-sign, OR, have so much faith in their numbers and potential of those numbers, that potentially losing Montas in 2yrs wouldn't hurt. The one thing I DO KNOW about the FO is that it's virtually impossible to predict what they are going to do. I doubt any of us ever saw the Pineda signing happening, or the trades for Odorizzi or Maeda. So rumor has it the Twins were working on trades before the lockout. I can see that. But I see more of a "surprise" trade that we've seen before, or a more predictable trade like Oddo back from Houston. I just don't think Odorizzi "fits" with the Astros and I think both parties want to move on. I think he could come cheaply. He was a good fit while with the Twins, is solid, only 31yr old, and frankly, I hadn't realized he looked like his old self after his poor start. Supposedly, he's their 6th SP, and a possible BP piece, for something like $8M. Again, it doesn't feel like he "fits" with Houston. Next, while not exciting save Rodon, there are a handful of FA arms that are experienced, not expensive, who could offer stability, leadership, and potentially eat some innings. Pineda is the obvious possibility there. Tyler Anderson and Kikuchi are a couple possibilities. To be clear, there is nothing exciting about these options. But there is potential for a solid floor to stabilize the rotation for the young arms that will develop and audition throughout 2022. Then you toss in Bundy, who I'm not exactly excited about. BUT, he teased with Baltimore and had a couple solid years with them. Speculation was, if he was with a better team, he might be a quality middle rotation piece. He was great in 2020, though I wouldn't dare to believe that was his REAL self. But various offerings on his ability...here at TD and other sites...speculate he may be a combination of his 2020 and solid Orioles days to still be a solid mid-rotation SP. Hello Wes Johnson! With a lineup that has a nice mix of veterans and youth, and quality offensive potential, mixed with HOPEFULLY a quality pen that has depth, there would be opportunity for the Twins to be "competitive" this year with a "solid" rotation. What does that mean? "Competitive"? Unfortunately, it probably holds no hope to surprise and go deep in the playoffs. Hell, the rotation alone could scream 70-75 wins. HOWEVER...and this is the key, and I'm not just blowing "optimist" smoke at anyone...a quality roster with a collection of stable, veteran arms can help keep the Twins in games along with continued development of Ober and Ryan. What if we see the 2019 and first 3/4 2020 version of Dobnak return? Early, mid-season or even late season pushes from Winder, Duran, Balazovic, Strotman, Sands, and maybe even a sky rocketing Canterino could not only help pave the way for 2023 and beyond, but could provide lifts to the rotation enough for 80-85 wins. Maybe they get a couple more and actually sneak in to a WC? Remote, but possible. To me, THAT'S a COMPETITIVE team, not sucking, and building excitement and expectations and hope going forward. They are going to need IP. Period! But this lineup, once someone of ANY quality is placed at SS, has real potential. If the pen comes through...and I think one more quality, experienced arm is needed...the rotation needs ANY veterans on hand to just be solid, and let the young arms gain experience and roll through them as needed to gain experience and provide IP. It's time to let the prospects get their feet wet and grow, or continue to grow in some cases. It could be a fun and interesting year to follow. And bad crap could happen, of course. But I'm actually excited for 2022 with an 80-85 win team for the future. And that's my hope for now. Mostly keep what you have but make tweaks, build for 2023 and beyond, and right the ship. Of course, the FO could stun us all with a couple surprise moves and everything I just wrote would be moot.

Well, I can't go any further without once again speaking about how awesome this site is and what it means to a life long Twins fan. (It's also a big deal for my "silent" father for topic discussion together). Just a tremendous site guys!! And it's the first thing I look at each morning. Thank you all! My initial "introduction" to you all was GEEK and SPEAKS, etc, and various other blog sites that I came across looking for content, especially of the milb and off-season variety. (Non-affiliated, I recall reading a lot of great content concerning the minors from a blogger who's name, I believe, was Josh.) So I "knew" everyone before TD was founded. And I enjoyed every moment of reading and information gathering I could take in! So it was a natural and welcome progression to simply follow the news and links to Twins Daily when it was founded. I think I went about a month or so of regular reading before I asked myself why I was reading and not contributing? So I created my account and joined in the discussion! And nobody's been able to shut me up yet! LOL

I've been thinking about this topic all day, plus reading additional posts, and have decided I have more to add. SURPRISE! LOL. #1] Really, just like any position player or pitcher, does it matter if you drafted/signed a SS or traded for one, but you developed one via trade, does it matter? You still worked/developed him. So he's still YOURS! #2] Lewis and Cavaco are the top draft choices for our current FO. (I'm leaving out recent international 16yo signings). The current FO inherited any other SS prospects. And if you are plugged in to the multiple changes that have taken place over the past few seasons, milb coaching and approach has gone through a huge transformation. So trying to bind the current system to years of SS frustration to the current system would be disingenuous. The Twins might have been wrong drafting Cavaco as a fast riser, 5 tool athlete. Just about ready to turn 20yo, we'll see. He might still surprise. Time is on his side. Lewis is about health. Period! And I don’t pretend to be any sort of expert. But I've seen enough in ST games, and TD highlights to see he has the range, arm, and athleticism to make the plays. But he also has to make the routine plays as well. If he has the ability to make the great plays, doesn't he have the potential to make the routine plays as well? I agree that good offense and OK defense makes him a great player. I think experience and time could make him at least better than average in both categories. But does 2022 define him? Maybe. I'd be happy as hell if he was healthy in 2022 and got his legs under him and split the season between AA early and finished at AAA.

To be fair to all 3 of these guys, no 2020 season hurt their development, as it did for most milb players. But in Lewis's case it was a double whammy as he then missed 2021 due to injury. (He does have the advantage at being at the alternate St Paul site in 2020 so as to continue getting in work and not stagnating). Wander missed a whole season due to surgery, then came back, then missed an entire second season. Gordon only missed the one year, but with his illness he might as well have been injured. Still not sure if he lost 15lbs or 25 as I've heard different reports. But he couldn't afford to lose any weight/strength like that. I think Lewis is going to be just fine, but even being an optimist I'm still saying 2023 at the earliest. Gordon has a history of growing and getting better his 2nd year at every level. I'm hoping that holds true this year, along with gaining some weight/muscle/strength back. He's probably never going to be anything close to a great hitter. But I'd take a decent one with speed and the ability to play all over the field defensively. Javier is a wild card at this point. As mediocre as his bat was in 2021, it was better than the last time we saw him, and the power started to come. There is at least a decent chance a healthy 2022 sees him suddenly break through and start to put it together. Sure hope so! Can't say 3 guys and injury, illness and covid over the past 4yrs is a clear indication of a "development problem" at this point. If it continues....well...then I think there may be some validity.

Beat me to it! I may be mistaken, but IIRC, Puckett was promoted because he was darn good but also because hey had to replace Eisenreich on the fly? What might have been!

Man, all I wanted to do was comment on the list and then we started the whole age debate thing. Now I have to try NOT to be as long winded as I normally am! LOL I will agree that age matters somewhat, in regard to history and HOF type performances. Is that what's being argued at the end of the day? I mean, back in the day, you saw "special" players debut as early as 19-20yo. Think Blyleven. Go to 80's and think Griffey and Gooden. More recent history, think King Felix and Correa. And you can research all you want and bring up as many examples as you want. NOBODY drafts or signs a phenom, generally speaking. They HAPPEN, and they are rare. Felix Hernandez and Gooden were destined for the HOF! Except, no they're not. But Randy Johnson struggled for a few years and then figured it out and had an amazing career and reached HOF status. On a much smaller scale, Dozier, All Star and future Twins HOF player, isn't worthy of being considered great because he didn't debut until he was about 24-25yo?. Joe Nathan was a SS before converting to being a pitcher and didn't come to the Twins and became a HOF "consideration" until age 27÷. All I'm saying is, a quality MLB prospect/player shouldn't always be ranked and considered just due to age. Hell, Cruz wasn't the player he became until he was about 27-28yo. And when you just accept that 2020 was a lost season for all but a few prospects, age reference becomes all that more difficult to extrapolate for future performance over the next couple of years. [Heavy sigh]. On to the good stuff: Varland has the FB, slider, and attitude, IMO, to be something. Why do so many...and this is not directed to anyone in particular...believe he is "destined" to a BP role after 1 1/2 seasons despite his amazing 2021? Because he hasn't fully developed his 3rd pitch yet? Excuse me? How many SP have fully developed that 3rd pitch coming out of A÷? But to some, he's already a BP projection. Why? How about we see him at AA at least before we suggest his future. Ditto for Sands. He's done nothing but advance and improve. His numbers are solid. And he, like others, may find themselves lacking a bit and end up as quality BP options going forward. And he may not have the pure velocity of someone Iike Varland, but it doesn't mean he has bad "stuff", just maybe not superior velocity. But we all know a SP, or any pitcher, doesn't make or break their career based on velocity alone. BUT, pure projection on stuff I might nudge Varland ahead of Sands. But we're splitting some small hairs and I'd be willing to bet we'll see Sands up in September, if not sooner, gaining some valuable IP. Walner is behind AK and Larnach, no doubt. And while I don't hold age against most prospects in general, and especially after 2020, he needs to overcome 2020 quickly and prove his 2021 and AFL production is real and RAKE at AA and get a mid season promotion. He's Rooker with better defense if he doesn't figure a few things out. I want to be optimistic, but I also want to see more. I'd probably drop him down a couple of spots. Celestino wasn't ready, but was called on through desperation. It's a credit to him and his talent he didn't implode. Instead, he learned and adapted and did great at AAA. He's got all the tools to be an outstanding 4th OF and maybe more. I'm hoping he can get at least a half season of AAA to prep himself for his next promotion. I appreciate the consensus of Miller. I wouldn't put him this high. I am OK with him not having any tool that ranks high. I'm OK with range, a good arm, overall athleticism, pop/power ability, and solid contact. I have this weird feeling he's Greg Gagne with a better offensive profile. And that would be awesome.

I like this group a lot. But I suspect I'm going to be saying that a lot throughout this series. I'm very intrigued by Hajjar and his projectability. I'm going to have to believe that with his frame, and some tweaks by coaching, his velocity is going to sit consistently in the mid 90's with sustainability. I guess my question is just how good is his curve, or how good can it be? Would he be better off altering to to more of a power slurve instead? I feel bad for Enlow, as I would anyone who undergoes TJ. If there's a silver lining I guess it would be that he's still quite young and looked like he was starting to really figure some stuff out. They say control is the last thing to come around following TJ. Here's hoping he finds it quickly enough to be at AA come 2023, if not the end of this year. I'm rather enamored by both Steer and Julien. With all due respect to Arraez, who I love, and Gordon who I think has a chance to carve out a solid career as a super-utility player with speed, Steer and Julien could both be even better options and relatively soon if they keep on their current trajectory. Really hoping Steer has enough glove to be a legitimate bench SS, as well as 2B/3B. Looks like Julien could play 3 infield spots and LF. They offer a mix of positional flexibility and a mix of power and speed that could make them semi-regulars. (Especially Julien? Could he be a top of the order presence on a daily basis?) Hard to not be excited about Rodriguez as not yet 19yo, already with a year under his belt, and possessing defense, OB ability and power. He seems to have a solid approach as his walks and XB power show. Now he just needs greater consistency. And just to comment further on Strotman, he's not old, but not a kid. But TJ and 2020 robbed him of 2yrs. That isn't his fault or a lack of development. Again, control takes a little while to get back post TJ. And his control in 2021 wasn't great for sure. But the velocity is there and seemingly some solid secondary stuff. I think he ran out of gas after the Twins got him. He might end up in the pen. And a few of our arms are going to. But I still think he's got a shot at the rotation at some point this year.