Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account
  • Twins News & Analysis

    Where Are The Twins Getting It Wrong?


    Nick Nelson

    The rebuild of Minnesota's front office started in autumn of 2016, with the hirings of Derek Falvey and Thad Levine at the top. It progressively continued after that, with additions and swaps throughout the regime, and nearly two years later the Twins have a very different look.

    The end goal of this overhaul was clear: Bring in new ideas, fresh thinking, modernized evaluation. The Twins wanted – and needed – to reach the sophisticated level of fellow small/mid-market franchises like Tampa and Oakland, which manage to overcome their inherent restrictions and succeed beyond expectation.

    Yet here in 2018, with their new baseball operations department settled in, the Twins still find themselves lagging behind. What gives?

    Twins Video

    No one made much of the Rays or Athletics this spring – ostensible rebuilders in extremely tough divisions. As we enter mid-September, though, Oakland is nipping at Houston's heels in the AL West, while Tampa remains relevant in the wild-card standings, 14 games above .500.

    Meanwhile, the Twins are hopelessly out of contention, potentially headed toward another 90-loss finish. Despite being tailored largely to the new front office's specifications, this team never really mustered a threat in an historically bad division. Highly favorable circumstances and a record payroll couldn't save Minnesota from almost front-to-back irrelevance.

    Once again, we Twins fans are left to look longingly at the Tampas and Oaklands of the world, and wonder why their success continues to elude us.

    It's not like those teams have been without setbacks. The Rays lost top prospect Brent Honeywell, verging on MLB-readiness, to Tommy John surgery in spring training. Jose De Leon, too. The A's rotation has gone through the wringer this year – they're rattling off wins these days behind a patchwork group that includes a resurrected Edwin Jackson.

    These scrappy, savvily constructed teams are simply rolling with the punches, getting it done, hitting all the notes Minnesota seems to miss.

    The Twins are trying their best to imitate some of the rising trends being championed by these innovative franchises.

    We've seen them follow in Tampa's footstops with the "Opener" strategy a few times, albeit with dismal results. A noted pitching guru, Falvey has implemented new methods and helped lift Minnesota's strikeout proficiency from the deepest dregs, but the overall results have been customarily mediocre.

    Like the A's, we've seen the Twins eagerly embrace the launch angle revolution – they hit the second-highest fly ball percentage of any team in baseball behind Oakland – but like its pitching staff, Minnesota's offense has been lackluster, paling in comparison to the contending units they are supposed to be challenging.

    The inferiority of this club was thoroughly evident last week when they were dismantled by the Astros. The same has been true frequently when Minnesota has faced off against top-tier teams.

    Diagnosing the Problem

    In general, I think it's tough to knock the strategies deployed by Falvey and Levine since taking over the Twins. They've been opportunistic with player acquisition, making a number of smart future-focused additions, and they've undeniably killed it with both their first two drafts. The new top execs have also populated the ranks of Minnesota's front office with plenty of sharp, respected pros.

    But something isn't clicking. Why does Ryan Pressly only fully unleash his curveball and reach his potential upon departing Minnesota for Houston? Why do Twins pitchers and hitters continue to struggle with adjustments, experiencing endemic regressions? Why are this team's weaknesses being exploited so much more often than the reverse?

    There are several theories. One is that the shift to an analytical focus has been too extreme.

    Terry Ryan was the ultimate people person, and that has underlying value. Falvey and Levine are friendly and engaging guys, to be sure, but their style of management could only be described as cold and calculated.

    They shuttle players in and out from the minors with total abandon. They took Kyle Gibson to arbitration – a step the Twins haven't taken with a player in more than a decade – in their first full offseason at the helm, almost as if to make a statement.

    And most strikingly, they left Byron Buxton off the September roster, in a move transparently motivated by service time preservation.

    These intangible, relationship-based factors are almost impossible to analyze, but it's foolish to ignore them. The 2018 Twins felt in many ways like a mercenary gang – heavy on one-year contracts, light on long-term commitments – and the Buxton decision seems to epitomize this "all business" mindset.

    The human element does matter. TR's teams in the early 2000s were consistently greater than the sum of their parts. This year's club never seemed to gel.

    Maybe there's a disconnect somewhere. As much as Falvey talks about fostering a collaborative culture, he has radically shaken up a firmly entrenched organizational structure. He is also channeling his agenda into the clubhouse through a manager he inherited, and whose merits have hardly been proven on the field.

    All the data and analytics and research in the world don't matter if they aren't fully absorbed and applied. I thought this tweet from Parker last week framed it pretty well:

    https://twitter.com/ParkerHageman/status/1037921501394165760

    This all brings us to what is in my mind the most likely, and least concerning, scenario: it's all still coalescing. October 3rd will mark the two-year anniversary of Falvey's hiring. And his ranks as a lengthy tenure in a franchise that's seen unprecedented churn.

    I believe in him, and Levine, and what they're building. I do believe that the first two problem areas discussed here – misalignments at both the human and organizational levels – have substance, and need improvement. But I also think both are natural byproducts of the circumstances before us: a cerebral 35-year-old thrust to the top of a major-league baseball franchise for the first time, with a second-year GM still acclimating to the head role.

    Some might disagree, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts in the comments, but from my view, the front office shortcomings of 2018 can be chalked up mostly to growing pains. As we head into Year 3, it's time to regroup, look inward, and get these issues ironed out.

    A critical offseason lies ahead.

    Follow Twins Daily For Minnesota Twins News & Analysis

    Recent Twins Articles

    Recent Twins Videos

    Twins Top Prospects

    Riley Quick

    Fort Myers Mighty Mussels - A, RHP
    Start #3 for the 21-year-old went well again. He tossed three scoreless innings with no walks. He gave up one hit and had three strikeouts. In 8 IP through 3 starts, he's given up 0 runs, 1 hit, 3 walks, and 13 strikeouts.

    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

     

    It is quite possible to take my sarcasm in a literal way. I apologize for failing to see that everyone doesnt seem to recognize the image that Falvine and Levine appear to be portraying to me, so i shall try to tone down the sarcasm. Heres the take ...It doesnt matter how old you are, how long you've had your job, or where you came from, to come off as smug , elitist, and arrogant is never going to win over many real fans. The way they handled the trading of Escobar completely infuriated me. I have had long term friends from New York to Los Angeles tell me that they never thought they would see the Minnesota Twins pull such bush league move. But thats not all. Did anyone see the post game interview by Ervin Santana after (probably his last game) he pitched in Detroit? He mentions how they are trying to do their job and win games but its hard when every day another one of their important pieces are taken from them. The next day it was announced he was shut down for the year due to recurring injury complications.That was Bull. 12 hours earlier he was telling reporters how it was getting better and better with each outing. At the very least he should have been able to get some innings in and at least audition for a trade or a 2019 deal. We all know he's never coming back here ever again unless its to shut us out. THIS was a team leader that a lot...and i mean a LOT of latin players look up to and listen to. When he doesn't reach his incentives and it hurts his future you can bet he wont be quiet about it. And then the whole Buxton situation happened AFTER that. There is one way to treat people that isnt legally wrong but ethically? I think we all agree its going to take a lot more money now to convince any top tier free agents to come here. Also these young guys are going to think twice about staying here after they've seen first hand what happened to guys like Dozier and Escobar. These kind of amateurish first year executive moves arent going to go unnoticed among the Twins players or players on other teams. So Yeah i do think that the Dynamic Duo sees themselves as the kings of the world, accountable to nobody. I'll still be a Twins fan when this doesnt work out and they are banging on doors in Cleveland and Arlington trying to get their old jobs back.

     

    Wow. Let’s break this down.

     

    It doesnt matter how old you are, how long you've had your job, or where you came from, to come off as smug , elitist, and arrogant is never going to win over many real fans.

     

    I’ve never seen anything that says that they’re smug, elitist and arrogant. Do you have any examples to prove this? They seem to be consummately nice in media appearances and if they were elitist, they wouldn’t have come to the Twins. My belief is that you (and a section of the Twins Daily audience) is projecting anger at a whole series of baseball and non-baseball changes onto Flavine. The rise of analytics and the scientization/questioning of the traditional truths in sports and society is threatening because it means the way you see the world/sport may not be accurate. It’s easier to lash out at a symbol of that change than explore and then accept/reject the shifting changes.

     

    Also, anytime someone talks about “real fans”, I groan a bit inside. We’re all real fans, there’s no reason to claim that you’re somehow better than other people. The mom who loves taking her kids but doesn’t know who is warming up in the bullpen is a real fan. The little kid who checks the box score every day because he can’t stay up late is a real fan. Aaron Gleeman, who loves breaking down statistics the same way the FO does, is a real fan. Stop trying to create tiers of fandom.

     

    The way they handled the trading of Escobar completely infuriated me. I have had long term friends from New York to Los Angeles tell me that they never thought they would see the Minnesota Twins pull such bush league move.

     

    My god. They traded a player to a playoff team! The inhumanity! Did your friend from New York think the Yankees were bush league when they traded Chapman to the Cubs? And when the Angels traded players at the deadline in 2015 and 2016? Every team in baseball does this when they have a bad season. The Twins have done it before. Stop acting like the Escobar trade was unusual. They told Escobar they were shopping him, it was widely reported he would go somewhere, and then it happened. He was sad to leave the Twins but excited to go into a pennant race. If he performs well there, it will only help his free agency as he’ll be performing on a big stage. You must be infuriated by all baseball moves?

     

    Did anyone see the post game interview by Ervin Santana after (probably his last game) he pitched in Detroit? He mentions how they are trying to do their job and win games but its hard when every day another one of their important pieces are taken from them.

     

    Dozier used to pull this too. Ervin did nothing to contribute to the team this year, calling out management for doing what’s best for the team when the players have not performed is pretty ridiculous.

     

    The next day it was announced he was shut down for the year due to recurring injury complications.That was Bull. 12 hours earlier he was telling reporters how it was getting better and better with each outing. At the very least he should have been able to get some innings in and at least audition for a trade or a 2019 deal.

     

    Santana wasn’t shut down because he said something. He was shut down because he is hurt. He has received injections on his finger because it’s not healed. It would actually be BS for the Twins to force him to pitch in the hope that he’d have trade value. They did what was best for the player – shut him down so he’ll be healthy for next season, even if it’s not with the Twins. Pretty cold hearted and inhuman huh?

     

    Also these young guys are going to think twice about staying here after they've seen first hand what happened to guys like Dozier and Escobar.

     

    If you really think that this is the first time the young guys have seen that baseball players move teams, I don’t know what to say to you. They’ve seen guys traded in the minors and Dozier is far from the first veteran to move about. They hung out with Lynn and Morrison this year, they know guys move. The Twins traded Dozier and Escobar to playoff teams where they can chase a ring. That isn’t some awful thing that was done and Escobar at least was grateful for the opportunity. Dozier whined but that’s because he didn’t get his contract (which would be a terrible contract BTW, another victory for the whiz kids!) I even get Dozier whining since he would’ve cashed in if he’d hit the market a year ago and looks ready for a tough free agency. I don’t think it’s the way I’d handle it but I get his sentiments. Just don’t think I’d blame the front office which (A.) made the right call not to trade him and (B.) did what every other team would do in its place and traded him when the Twins didn’t compete to (C.) a playoff team where a late-season surge would help Dozier more than if it was happening for the moribund Twins.

     

    These kind of amateurish first year executive moves arent going to go unnoticed among the Twins players or players on other teams. So Yeah i do think that the Dynamic Duo sees themselves as the kings of the world, accountable to nobody.

     

    These are veteran executive moves that have been utilized time and again to build good teams. The Cubs and Astros did it. The Braves did it. The Phillies didn’t with Howard/Utley/Co. and ended up in a five year rebuild. And again, you need to provide more evidence of their lack of accountability and smugness – just asserting something doesn’t make it true. “Donald Trump quit Twitter!” Nope. Not true. Even though I said it.

     

     

    I think zeros on paychecks matter about a gazillion times more.

     

    The dynamic between teams and players/agents is already adversarial.  It happens in every arbitration meeting.  Every contract discussion.  And if what you said was true...no player would've ever agreed to be part of the Miami Marlins organization since about 1997.  No team has jerked people around more than them and they still sign FAs, agree with draft picks, etc.  There is zero evidence for teams acting selfishly has any impact on player acquisition and reams of evidence to the contrary.

    No, I don't think what the Twins did to Buxton means squat to any other player, agent, or anyone not named Byron Buxton. And even he won't care if enough zeros appear in an offer.

    Of course, I think that's part of the reason the "FAs don't like MN," thing is overplayed. Do you believe the Twins are a franchise willing to throw those zeroes out? I don't, and if you're a mid market club that is notorious for being cheap I don't see how adding the reputation of player manipulation is harmless. 

     

    Hyperbole? We know the players Miami did sign. We have no idea who may have ruled them out.  

     

    The effect on other players and agents might be more indirect, but IMO this decision directly impacts the negotiations they'll have with that group they tried to extend last offseason. 

    Edited by KirbyDome89

     

    I think you'd need to find one instance of said player following up that season with a .383 OPS first. 

     

    I mean seriously... There are players with higher OBPs than Buxton's OPS in the majors this year. 

     

    You can point out service time manipulation, but at the same time, this isn't happening if Buxton's major league line is remotely competent. 

    Johnny Field

    Matt Belisle

    Chris Gimenez

     

    All of them have been terrible major league players this year. You can't tell me with a straight face that performance is what kept Buxton off an EXPANDED roster. 

    Fair enough, but other than 2 months in 2017, Buxton has looked bad in general. He looked pretty bad in the minors too this season. I don't think his injury gives him a mulligan here, and even as he heated up in September, he was doing so with crappy peripherals. Lots of people can look good in a 40 AB sample size, which is what hot week in September was. I just find this juxtaposition interesting. The argument made on this site to call him up was due to a hot week. I don't think you can have this both ways.

    We can slice sample sizes in a lot of ways to fit either agenda. You say he had a hot 2 weeks in September. I can reply saying he hit .270 from May 1 to the end of the 2017 season which is above average to go along with elite defense.

     

    We can go back and forth on this all day. But my problem isn't the offensive production or lack of it. My problem is the FO in cold blooded fashion suppressed his service time and failed to communicate with him. Teams tend to take advantage of this loophole before the player ever puts on an MLB uniform. It's extremely unusual to do this to a player with MLB experience over 3 years.

    Edited by Vanimal46

     

    We can slice sample sizes in a lot of ways to fit either agenda. You say he had a hot 2 weeks in September. I can reply saying he hit .270 from May 1 to the end of the 2017 season which is above average to go along with elite defense.

    We can go back and forth on this all day. But my problem isn't the offensive production or lack of it. My problem is the FO in cold blooded fashion suppressed his service time and failed to communicate with him. Teams tend to take advantage of this loophole before the player ever puts on an MLB uniform. It's extremely unusual to do this to a player with MLB experience over 3 years.

     

    You know what isn't a sample?  His 1,000 at-bats.  Do you know what his career OPS is?  What is K-BB ratios are?

     

    Let's be real - the only way his offense looks anything other than "bad" is if you play the small sample game.  As a whole - it isn't good.

     

    Of course, I think that's part of the reason the "FAs don't like MN," thing is overplayed. Do you believe the Twins are a franchise willing to throw those zeroes out? I don't, and if you're a mid market club that is notorious for being cheap I don't see how adding the reputation of player manipulation is harmless. 

     

    Hyperbole? We know the players Miami did sign. We have no idea who may have ruled them out.  

     

    The effect on other players and agents might be more indirect, but IMO this decision directly impacts the negotiations they'll have with that group they tried to extend last offseason. 

     

    If they're cheap what they did to Buxton is irrelevant.  It'll never get past the stage of "Well, that offer sucked"  So your point is moot.  Which is kind of the point.

     

    There is zero evidence that players and agents use adversarial tactics against clubs in negotiations.  Zero.  And the plainest evidence is right in front of you - EVERY club is adversarial in almost all contract talks, issues of service time, and negotiations.  If players and agents gave that any weight they'd have to stop playing major league baseball.  You could find all sorts of jerk moves to use against a club if you wanted to.  

     

    As an example - every arbitration hearing where a billionaire nickel and dimed me would piss me off WAY more than this.  And that happens every year to all sorts of players!

     

    Buxton's will matter squat to anyone not named Buxton.  The front office correctly dismissed that concern and, as I stated earlier, is really playing the long-game for upside here. 

    Edited by TheLeviathan

     

    You know what isn't a sample?  His 1,000 at-bats.  Do you know what his career OPS is?  What is K-BB ratios are?

    And 43 healthy MLB PA ago, the Twins looked at that same career line and thought it was worth an opening day job and an extension offer (although who knows for how much).

     

    43 healthy MLB PA later, and the same career line apparently deserves to get sent home, even with expanded rosters and the minor league season complete.

     

    That's the juxtaposition that bothers me. I have no qualms about a Sano-to-Ft.-Myers-style rebuild project for Buxton, but it's a little suspicious and/or poor planning to not announce that until Sep. 1st. (Heck, given that the Sano thing clearly wasn't about service time -- he was sent down a few days *after* reaching 3 full years service -- I think linking his situation to Buxton's no later than August 1st or so could have spared the Twins some grief.)

     

    And 43 healthy MLB PA ago, the Twins looked at that same career line and thought it was worth an opening day job and an extension offer (although who knows for how much).

     

    43 healthy MLB PA later, and the same career line apparently deserves to get sent home, even with expanded rosters and the minor league season complete.

     

    That's the juxtaposition that bothers me. I have no qualms about a Sano-to-Ft.-Myers-style rebuild project for Buxton, but it's a little suspicious and/or poor planning to not announce that until Sep. 1st. (Heck, given that the Sano thing clearly wasn't about service time -- he was sent down a few days *after* reaching 3 full years service -- I think linking his situation to Buxton's no later than August 1st or so could have spared the Twins some grief.)

     

    I don't think anything they've done has indicated they have a lack of belief in Buxton's future.  In fact, saving his service time implies they still highly value his future.  I'm not sure there is any real contradiction there.

     

    As you say, there are other decision in this that do mystify me a bit.  I'm of the opinion that if a player can't play two days in a row due to injury, he probably shouldn't be playing at all.  That's the real issue to me, they seemed to be half-assing their way through handling him.

    Edited by TheLeviathan

    I don't think anything they've done has indicated they have a lack of belief in Buxton's future. In fact, saving his service time implies they still highly value his future. I'm not sure there is any real contradiction there.

     

    As you say, there are other decision in this that do mystify me a bit. I'm of the opinion that if a player can't play two days in a row due to injury, he probably shouldn't be playing at all. That's the real issue to me, they seemed to be half-assing their way through handling him.

    Their half-ass handling was a significant contributor to this lost season. The Twins were still in the race and they forgo his rehab assignment because he's valuable to the team. It was a horrible decision and resulted in 40+ unhealthy at bats playing on one foot.

     

    What's Buxton's reward for being a trooper playing through injury? Being sent home in September and holding him back from free agency another year. Oh boy.

     

    I hope going forward Buxton looks out for himself and takes the time necessary to play at 100%. Because clearly there's no reward for playing injured with this front office.

     

    I don't think anything they've done has indicated they have a lack of belief in Buxton's future.  In fact, saving his service time implies they still highly value his future.  I'm not sure there is any real contradiction there.

    I wasn't suggesting anything about their belief in Buxton's future. I was just saying, it's hard to spin their Sep. 1st decision to be about his 2015-2017 performance, given they made a very different decision with virtually all of that same data fairly recently.

     

    I'd say it's more likely that they're actually pretty comfortable with his defense-first, streaky-offense profile, but they saw a window to manipulate his service time in 2018 and took it. (Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that -- but it could have been handled much better than dropping the hammer with a laundry list of excuses on Sep. 1st.)

     

    Their half-ass handling was a significant contributor to this lost season. The Twins were still in the race and they forgo his rehab assignment because he's valuable to the team. It was a horrible decision and resulted in 40+ unhealthy at bats playing on one foot.

    What's Buxton's reward for being a trooper playing through injury? Being sent home in September and holding him back from free agency another year. Oh boy.

    I hope going forward Buxton looks out for himself and takes the time necessary to play at 100%. Because clearly there's no reward for playing injured with this front office.

     

    Buxton should always look out for himself, regardless.  That's why players sign agents isn't it?  You and others act like some sacred bond of togetherness was broken here.  Player/team dynamics are almost always adversarial when it comes to contracts.  This is nothing new in that regard.  There are specifics to this case that are somewhat unique, but not as unique as some of are trying to portray.  At the end of the day it's a money squabble and that happens all the freaking time.

     

    Also, you don't know if he was pressured to play.  He might have masked the injury or kept quiet about it also.  Or it might have been a joint effort.  

     

    I wasn't suggesting anything about their belief in Buxton's future. I was just saying, it's hard to spin their Sep. 1st decision to be about his 2015-2017 performance, given they made a very different decision with virtually all of that same data fairly recently.

     

    I'd say it's more likely that they're actually pretty comfortable with his defense-first, streaky-offense profile, but they saw a window to manipulate his service time in 2018 and took it. (Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that -- but it could have been handled much better than dropping the hammer with a laundry list of excuses on Sep. 1st.)

     

    I'm on the record as not loving their handling of it, so we agree there.  I think they are making the decision to extend his service time on the same basis they handed him CF to start the year: they still believe he'll be a star.

     

    whether their basis is in his 2015-2017 performance, his athletic profile, his July/Aug run last year, or some combo of all of the above.....I think their decisions were consistent.  The outcome just looks strange because of the weird timing of injuries, rehab, and performance.

    Edited by TheLeviathan

     

    If they're cheap what they did to Buxton is irrelevant.  It'll never get past the stage of "Well, that offer sucked"  So your point is moot.  Which is kind of the point.

     

    There is zero evidence that players and agents use adversarial tactics against clubs in negotiations.  Zero.  And the plainest evidence is right in front of you - EVERY club is adversarial in almost all contract talks, issues of service time, and negotiations.  If players and agents gave that any weight they'd have to stop playing major league baseball.  You could find all sorts of jerk moves to use against a club if you wanted to.  

     

    As an example - every arbitration hearing where a billionaire nickel and dimed me would piss me off WAY more than this.  And that happens every year to all sorts of players!

     

    Buxton's will matter squat to anyone not named Buxton.  The front office correctly dismissed that concern and, as I stated earlier, is really playing the long-game for upside here. 

    Well, no, my point is that the decision reaches beyond Buxton. If you're working for a company; you watch a coworker get f***ed over on a bonus, and you're due to negotiate your next contract there, you don't think that situation plays any part in how you handle the upcoming negotiation? 

     

    Every club fills a roster. I understand that. You're asking for evidence where neither of us can provide any. It's my opinion that a move like this leaves a sour taste in the mouths of players & agents. I can't say with any certainty how or if it affects negotiations. By that same token you can't use the fact that every teams fills an active roster as evidence that no player has ruled out particular organizations or ownership groups based on reputation/culture. It's openly agreed upon that variables like climate, business opportunities, cost of living, ect influence the decisions players make. I'm not sure why it's so controversial to think that franchise reputation/culture plays a role as well. 

     

    Well, no, my point is that the decision reaches beyond Buxton. If you're working for a company; you watch a coworker get f***ed over on a bonus, and you're due to negotiate your next contract there, you don't think that situation plays any part in how you handle the upcoming negotiation? 

     

    Every club fills a roster. I understand that. You're asking for evidence where neither of us can provide any. It's my opinion that a move like this leaves a sour taste in the mouths of players & agents. I can't say with any certainty how or if it affects negotiations. By that same token you can't use the fact that every teams fills an active roster as evidence that no player has ruled out particular organizations or ownership groups based on reputation/culture. It's openly agreed upon that variables like climate, business opportunities, cost of living, ect influence the decisions players make. I'm not sure why it's so controversial to think that franchise reputation/culture plays a role as well. 

     

    MLB does not operate like your company.  

     

    Players resign with teams all the time that openly go into rooms, disparage the player, and talk an arbiter into saving them a few thousand bucks at the expense of a young player who could use it.  If that doesn't move the needle....why would this?  The reality is that players and agents understand the way the contract game is played - they find ways to use/game the system to their advantage and players make them pony up when it comes to free agency.  Getting lost in the weeds on the little stuff isn't on anyone's radar.  

     

    I get that some here WANT this to be true, because it serves as a point to attack the FO on, but practically speaking it's irrelevant.  As irrelevant as how cold the winters in Minnesota are.  Our climate doesn't stop people from signing here, our checkbook does.

    In two years, adding Castro, Austin, and odirizzi, and no help in AA or AAA that will help in year three is progress?

     

    Short sighted? Give me a date we can expect wins..... When can we no longer say it is short sighted to add long term talent in trades or free agency to the roster?

     

    Their half-ass handling was a significant contributor to this lost season. The Twins were still in the race and they forgo his rehab assignment because he's valuable to the team. It was a horrible decision and resulted in 40+ unhealthy at bats playing on one foot.

    What's Buxton's reward for being a trooper playing through injury? Being sent home in September and holding him back from free agency another year. Oh boy.

    I hope going forward Buxton looks out for himself and takes the time necessary to play at 100%. Because clearly there's no reward for playing injured with this front office.

    The Twins gave themselves the opportunity to manipulate his service time by mishandling him early in the season. Then they set themselves up to do it when they optioned him during his rehab assignment following his DL stint, after they rushed him back from the toe injury. If he's allowed proper time to rest and rehab the toe injury his service time never becomes an issue. IMO the idea that Buxton played himself into this situation is just scapegoating for the FO. 

     

    I think they are making the decision to extend his service time on the same basis they handed him CF to start the year: they still believe he'll be a star.

    I don't know about "star". They could just view him as a 3+ WAR guy when healthy, even with the questionable offense. An extra year of that still has value. In which case, the Sep. 1st decision had little to do with fixing his 2015-2017 offensive output.

     

    MLB does not operate like your company.  

     

    Players resign with teams all the time that openly go into rooms, disparage the player, and talk an arbiter into saving them a few thousand bucks at the expense of a young player who could use it.  If that doesn't move the needle....why would this?  The reality is that players and agents understand the way the contract game is played - they find ways to use/game the system to their advantage and players make them pony up when it comes to free agency.  Getting lost in the weeds on the little stuff isn't on anyone's radar.  

     

    I get that some here WANT this to be true, because it serves as a point to attack the FO on, but practically speaking it's irrelevant.  As irrelevant as how cold the winters in Minnesota are.  Our climate doesn't stop people from signing here, our checkbook does.

    Sure, and every employee wants to make more while every employer wants to pay them less. Arbitration is a negotiation process. There was no negotiation with the Buxton situation. The Twins took back a FA year from him. Not only does he stand to lose a hell of a lot more than a few thousand bucks, but there's also little he can do about it apart from filing a grievance, and good luck with that. 

     

    There's a difference between being unable to come to an agreement on a raise, and an employer actively preventing you from reaching a raise. 

     

    I don't think I've been overly harsh on this FO at any point during their tenure. You don't see any validity in criticizing the human element of their decision? 

     

    Like I said, I agree that money matters above all else. I have 0 faith in this organization outspending other teams though. The Twins operate within the margins because they choose to. IMO the weeds matter in case. 

     

    I don't think I've been overly harsh on this FO at any point during their tenure. You don't see any validity in criticizing the human element of their decision? 

     

    I do.  I think this has potential to be a major issue for Buxton.

     

    It's when you try to project that to FA or other players that I think the criticism is reaching.  

     

    In two years, adding Castro, Austin, and odirizzi, and no help in AA or AAA that will help in year three is progress?

    Short sighted? Give me a date we can expect wins..... When can we no longer say it is short sighted to add long term talent in trades or free agency to the roster?

     

     

    Castro added to work with new pitches coming to the major, he would've done a lot of the games Wilson did this year. Hopefully next season he will work with Romero, Stewart, Gonsalves and others. Garver the more experienced in the mix: Odorizzi, Berrios, Pineda.

     

    Odorizzi was a gamble. You get him for two seasons at a decent rate. If he really shined, you might've extended him this off-season. You still have the chance to do so after next season (or during the season) and, if nothing else, you should be able to get someone's minor league (shortstop) player back in return.

     

    Austin was an interesting grab from the Yankees. What did you expect for Lynn (The Twins also got a low level pitcher who did well this season).  The Twins need to keep him in the majors in 2019 or lose him (same as the Yankees). Right now, chances are he is better than Morrison, and probably better than keeping Vargas. Can actually play first or the outfield. Was he a longterm pieces? No. Considering the Twins MAY need a 1B/DH next season, and given a chance to play here in August and September, a nice return in the Lynn trade. Who knows, he might still be on the roster in 2020 or 2021.

     

    As to wins...well, everyone else has to lose. The Twins have to look closely and see that Detroit, Kansas City and probably the White Sox are no worse off that then Twins. So they MIGHT have a chance to put up more wins in 2019. Out of a four team standoff, can they at least take series from those teams below them in the standings?

     

    I truly thought the Twins would be the same as 2018, if not a tad better. Lynn and Odorizzi added to a staff headed by Santana. See how that worked out?

    Three veteran arms added to the bullpen in Duke, Rodney, Reed. You can't save games if you are behind.

    A bat in Morrison at DH capable of hitting .240 with 35-30 homers? Who knew?

    Polanco, Sano, Buxton, Kepler essentially going backwards. Dozier NOT playing for a great free agent contract. Who would've thought.

     

    Let's see. But a starter, some bullpen arms and a bat this off-season. They got the money. Can probably spend more than they did last season (considering they have Santana and Mauer money to spend, too.

     

    If that happened, if the roster contained replacements (new expensive and proven) for Lynn, Morrison, Rodney, Duke, Morrison, and if you threw in dollars for a second baseman and ANOTHER rotation arm...would the Twins beat Cleveland? They could. Yes, they still could, and not change much of the "prospects" talent they have that will be given another season to shine.

    The point is... In two years they have added no mid term talent, no one but Austin will be here next year and beyond. How many years until we can expect major league talent to be added for more than one year?

     

    I don't care what they got for Lynn, I care that no one is added to the roster. I guess Grossman too..... Pineda has one year....

     

    In two years, adding Castro, Austin, and odirizzi, and no help in AA or AAA that will help in year three is progress?

    Short sighted? Give me a date we can expect wins..... When can we no longer say it is short sighted to add long term talent in trades or free agency to the roster?

     

    I guess I'd suggest next year is the prove it year now that they are looking at about $80M in available payroll and plenty prospects available to trade.

     

    I'm not sure what you mean about the AA/AAA comment though. Personally, I'm really looking forward to seeing Thorpe, Romero, Rooker, Wade and Wells. Gordon's still giving other people the warm fuzzies too I believe.

     

     

    In two years, adding Castro, Austin, and odirizzi, and no help in AA or AAA that will help in year three is progress?

    Short sighted? Give me a date we can expect wins..... When can we no longer say it is short sighted to add long term talent in trades or free agency to the roster?

    There is Romero. There are all of the bullpen arms that got called up from Rochester this month and a couple who did not could be a great help.  Mejia could get it figured out. Raley, Rooker or Wiel by the end of 2019.  Odorizzi as a back of the rotation pitcher was a huge step up from Santiago and Colon or Touchdown Tommy Milone..  When you give up a low prospect and get back a inning eater by today's standards pitcher, that is a step up.  ROY candidates, not so much.  2019 is dependent upon the improvement by the group of players currently under the age of 26 improving, finding a rising 2b/ss,  finding a 1b, dh or 3b to anchor the middle of the lineup, 4/5 outfielder if you do not think Cave is one. As far as wins go, there have been posts in this thread that said this current collection of players were in contention this year.  When to expect wins? When Sano, Buxton, rosario all cause angst for a starting pitcher, or an opener.

    It is quite possible to take my sarcasm in a literal way. I apologize for failing to see that everyone doesnt seem to recognize the image that Falvine and Levine appear to be portraying to me, so i shall try to tone down the sarcasm. Heres the take ...It doesnt matter how old you are, how long you've had your job, or where you came from, to come off as smug , elitist, and arrogant is never going to win over many real fans. The way they handled the trading of Escobar completely infuriated me. I have had long term friends from New York to Los Angeles tell me that they never thought they would see the Minnesota Twins pull such bush league move. But thats not all. Did anyone see the post game interview by Ervin Santana after (probably his last game) he pitched in Detroit? He mentions how they are trying to do their job and win games but its hard when every day another one of their important pieces are taken from them. The next day it was announced he was shut down for the year due to recurring injury complications.That was Bull. 12 hours earlier he was telling reporters how it was getting better and better with each outing. At the very least he should have been able to get some innings in and at least audition for a trade or a 2019 deal. We all know he's never coming back here ever again unless its to shut us out. THIS was a team leader that a lot...and i mean a LOT of latin players look up to and listen to. When he doesn't reach his incentives and it hurts his future you can bet he wont be quiet about it. And then the whole Buxton situation happened AFTER that. There is one way to treat people that isnt legally wrong but ethically? I think we all agree its going to take a lot more money now to convince any top tier free agents to come here. Also these young guys are going to think twice about staying here after they've seen first hand what happened to guys like Dozier and Escobar. These kind of amateurish first year executive moves arent going to go unnoticed among the Twins players or players on other teams. So Yeah i do think that the Dynamic Duo sees themselves as the kings of the world, accountable to nobody. I'll still be a Twins fan when this doesnt work out and they are banging on doors in Cleveland and Arlington trying to get their old jobs back.

    Which are you suggesting?

    1) The Twins are lying about the injection Santana received in his finger?

    2) The Twins forced Santana to have a medical procedure done, against his will, for the sole purpose of shutting him down as a form of punishment?

     

    Both are extremely far fetched, enough so that perhaps you should step back and ask yourself if you are being completely objective in your evaluation of them.

    Reading between the lines, there are some people who just can’t accept that the Twins were sellers or as they see it gave up on the season. Ironically, most of those same people are complaining the 40 man is in horrible shape. Yet, somehow they look at a very poorly performing team with very little in the high minors and deplore the very actions required to rectify the situation.

     

    The disdain for “giving up” is an opportunity to portray everything they do in the worst possible light. Granted there are a couple things that were not handled ideally but to rant about the arrogant whiz kids auditioning for a gig in a larger market does not suggest an objective point of view. Teams selling off free agents in a lost season is baseball management 101. You can’t rant about how bad the team is positioned and at the same time ridicule the FO for selling. An Executive’s role and responsibilities are long-term in nature. Short-term focused fans are going to have a problem with a F/O looking to build sustainable systems, processes and practices. I want to watch a better brand of baseball year after year and short-term thinking is death of sustained performance.

    Im not sure if this was specifically meant for me but it doesnt matter. I have no problem making my view very crystal clear. Hell No I dont think it was the right decision to sell at the 2018 trading deadline. I fully believe the group we had in place WAS capable to compete for and possibly win a World Series title. The factors that i cite are these. Santana was coming back off the D.L. Polanco was back from his suspension. Buxton would right himself and come back strong as in 2017.(which he did in Rochester..reference b.a. after the D.l.) Whatever Club Med retreat Sano was on was going to work and he would make a difference in the last 2 months. Lance Lynn never had a spring training and was finally rounding into the winner that he is.(check out his last few starts especially the last one at Fenway). Rodney had 25 saves when he was dumped for a rookie league suspect recovering from TJ surgery. Cleveland is a pretender that only had an eight game lead over us with 62 GAMES TO GO!. 10 of those 62 games were against Cleveland. HELL NO. We never should have tanked this season. It was a disgrace to do that to the season ticket holders, the fans , the players, and the coaching staff. Is that clear enough? This was a golden opportunity that was thrown away in favor of some analytical genius self proclaimed saviors. Giving up with one third of a season left is not the epitome of being a Minnesota Twins fan has ever included. Believe Dat.

    Which are you suggesting?

    1) The Twins are lying about the injection Santana received in his finger?

    2) The Twins forced Santana to have a medical procedure done, against his will, for the sole purpose of shutting him down as a form of punishment?

     

    Both are extremely far fetched, enough so that perhaps you should step back and ask yourself if you are being completely objective in your evaluation of them.

    Ok i have stepped back and i feel the same way. Perhaps you should read this...http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24355789 and then watch the video. God forbid we should want any "Winners" around. I beg to differ that those injections could have waited until the off season. If you could ask him, he would rather have had the opportunity to work through it and finish the season.

    I think this is the hardest part about running any organization. I run a law firm and we are always walking that fine line between being a "family" and empowering people, and being more cold hearted and managing based solely on results. The problem with the family feel and completely empowering people is that some then feel empowered to not work very hard or be very productive. They then are shocked or resentful when their effort and results are called into question and more importantly, they become very resistent to change. After all, no one will call me out or fire me, we're a family! On the other hand, if you manage just based on results some people will feel "just like a number", become resentful, and the Firm culture suffers and can take the business with it. My guess would be that many of the Twins employees who "feel like a number" are older and/or more resistant to change and feel like they should be able to continue to do what they've always done the way they've always done it and that should be good enough. I really think that was the old regimes biggest weakness - they were far too resistant to necessary change. The business world has changed a lot in the last few years and the Twins got left behind. Significant change was necessary.

     

    I'm sure Falvey and Levine are trying to manage the Twins organization with a positive culture that reward contributions and results while at the same time holds everyone accountable for their performance, all while instituting the significant necessary changes to compete in a rapidly changing business environment like baseball (and law, for that matter). Good luck with that. That is one tall order and I wish them the best of luck. It's a very tough one to pull off. 5 years is a good timeline to see if they can pull this off with the Twins and show the results on the field. Two years isn't nearly enough time to make the changes the Twins organization needed.

    I cant speak for the management skills of the front office but it would seem to me that nobody would be happy to hear.." Thad and I are thankful for this opportunity to build this franchise from scratch and i promise you Twins Fan in five years we will have a shot at playing .500 ball" There are different layers of players that were inherited by this regime. Those that were fan favorites that were at or near 30 and due for a new contract. The Sano,Buxton,Berrios class of guys that basically came up together and then the really young guys who we have time to address before a decision has to be made, and/or the older dudes that can be replaced easily. Is this what we can expect? Every Spring a new class of cant miss A and AA guys trot out, make a splash and fade into the woodwork. We talk about what a shrewd business move it was to dump a potential big money contract for three or four or five blue chip suspects. Meanwhile, we get to watch our favorite hometown heroes like the Escobars and Doziers (that we were so smart to dump just in time) compete for rings each and every year. Dang this is reminding me so much of the Calvin Griffith era that its .....sickening. I can see how the business of baseball has changed. Isn't the main source of revenue still ticket sales? at $1,100 a seat for the cheapest season ticket who is going to wait five years to see a competitive team on the field. That is whats so unrealistic about any 5 year plan. Every other team is trying to win. They recognize opportunities to make a run at the playoffs and take a shot. Why do we have to suffer through anybody's Five Year Plan? I dont see it...Never will. Nobody gives me five years to be mildly successful at my job. Edited by Channing1964

    Ok i have stepped back and i feel the same way. Perhaps you should read this...http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24355789 and then watch the video. God forbid we should want any "Winners" around. I beg to differ that those injections could have waited until the off season. If you could ask him, he would rather have had the opportunity to work through it and finish the season.

    So you are going with #2. The Twins forced him to get a medical procedure against his will.

    The good news for him is that he should get many times his lifetime earnings in the lawsuit. And, I'd expect prison time for those involved as well.

    What are the Twins minor league pitching prospects. I have followed this forum for 7 or so years rarely posting since the password has issues.

     

    I am from St. Louis and what the Cards have done well lately has been churning minor league pitchers. Will this get us back in the playoffs?

     

    What are the Twins top minor league pitchers? It looks like that is your biggest issue.

     

    Buxton and Sano I remember your top prospects are not producing 1100 plate appearances as one would have thought they would have a couple years ago.

     

    I am glad the Cards didn't give Lance Lynn a $100 million contract. Good think you didn't either.




    Create an account or sign in to comment

    You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create an account

    Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

    Register a new account

    Sign in

    Already have an account? Sign in here.

    Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...