For The Love Of Joe

bird · August 24, 2016

Taking first pitch strikes certainly trumps almost anything A-rod has done.

Is some flack deserved? Sure. Does any of it make him the most hated player in the game? I think not.

That was the argument, not that Mauer is void of fault or flack.

My bad, I misinterpreted troyhobb's comment: "the ONLY reason Joe catches flack is because of his contract".

The bottom line is that too many people "hate" him because they can't separate their thoughts about his contract from their thoughts about his performance. We all know those people, and we probably all know a few adoring fans who don't particularly care about his contract and aren't particularly discerning about his performance.

There are many of us who don't give a rip about his contract but find "some fault" with his performance. They are not connected whatsoever for us. OTOH, we might, now or in the future, fault the FO because Mauer is still playing despite clearly superior alternatives simply because, in our estimation, they refuse to "waste" $23M. In my view of things, that time hasn't arrived but might be quickly approaching, maybe next year. It'll be interesting to see how the new GM handles the situation.

Not sure what A-rod has to do with our discussion. And no one here believes anything that even resembles the "most hated player in the game." thing. Where did THAT come from? troyhobbs clarified his earlier comment quite well.

dxpavelka · August 24, 2016

I know that Joe Mauer is a fan-favorite of many, and that his
9-season run from 2005-2013 easily qualifies him as the best
catcher in team history. At one point in his career, he seemed
destined for Cooperstown.

The fact is, however, that careers are a total body of work. At age
31, his decline was steep. From one season to the next, he morphed
from a .320 hitter to .270. And the .270-range is where he has
resided since 2014, at first base no less, with an average of
about 12 home runs and 65 RBI per season. That type of production (such as it is) is what we can expect during his two remaining seasons in a Twins uniform. Or when his contract mercifully expires at
the conclusion of 2018.

The best comparison I can come up with is Don Mattingly. His first 7 or 8 seasons, he absolutely raked. But injuries took their toll,
and from ages 30-34 his drop anticipated that of Mauer’s. And by
age 35 or so, he was out of baseball.

Don Mattingly and Joe Mauer are not going to the Hall-of-Fame
because
A - their run of greatness just was not long enough
B - the mediocre era of their careers started too early and lasted
too long
C - They had no defining October moments.

It is what it is.

Actually Joe WILL go because his run of greatness was as a catcher.

PopRiveter · August 24, 2016

In addition, Mauer's HOF case is going to be hurt by his lack of postseason success.

Might be more fair to say "His team's lack of postseason success" or "His lack of postseason opportunity."

He only has 39 postseason PA which is a tiny sum considering he's 13 years in.

He's faired okay (.286/.359/.314) but the sample has been so little it has no positive impact.

bird · August 24, 2016

I still see nothing wrong with Joe taking 1st pitch strikes.

That is probably an irrational thing on my part, but I hate it. Help me out. What my eyes see way too often is what looks like a very hittable first pitch. I'm probably wrong about that? I'm surmising that, since he's well-scouted, pitchers "know" he's going to be taking and therefore throw something from their arsenal that they "know" they can throw for a strike, right? And probably not at its nastiest. So, I'm listening to Smalley and other commentators constantly talking about how a hitter's AB depends on taking advantage of the one or two pitches in an AB that they can destroy. I realize Joe gets a ton of walks by being patient, gets hits because he sees a lot of pitches, gets a lot of two-strike hits. But I also have this perception that he's increasingly vulnerable these days when it's a pitcher's count, especially to the strikeout. Where's Parker when you need him?

Edited August 24, 2016 by birdwatcher

wsnydes · August 24, 2016

My bad, I misinterpreted troyhobb's comment: "the ONLY reason Joe catches flack is because of his contract".

The bottom line is that too many people "hate" him because they can't separate their thoughts about his contract from their thoughts about his performance. We all know those people, and we probably all know a few adoring fans who don't particularly care about his contract and aren't particularly discerning about his performance.

There are many of us who don't give a rip about his contract but find "some fault" with his performance. They are not connected whatsoever for us. OTOH, we might, now or in the future, fault the FO because Mauer is still playing despite clearly superior alternatives simply because, in our estimation, they refuse to "waste" $23M. In my view of things, that time hasn't arrived but might be quickly approaching, maybe next year. It'll be interesting to see how the new GM handles the situation.

Not sure what A-rod has to do with our discussion. And no one here believes anything that even resembles the "most hated player in the game." thing. Where did THAT come from? troyhobbs clarified his earlier comment quite well.

I agree with you here. I don't believe that time has come either. He's still a productive player and I think other players at other positions are blocking those behind him in the system.

Troyhobbs did clarify his earlier comment well. I brought A-rod up as an example of what level the most hated player in the game would be based on your initial comment, which you've misinterpreted. We've now cleared up both of our misunderstandings, rendering that portion of the conversation irrelevant.

wsnydes · August 24, 2016

That is probably an irrational thing on my part, but I hate it. Help me out. What my eyes see way too often is what looks like a very hittable first pitch. I'm probably wrong about that? I'm surmising that, since he's well-scouted, pitchers "know" he's going to be taking and therefore throw something from their arsenal that they "know" they can throw for a strike, right? And probably not at its nastiest. So, I'm listening to Smalley and other commentators constantly talking about how a hitter's AB depends on taking advantage of the one or two pitches in an AB that they can't destroy. I realize Joe gets a ton of walks by being patient, gets hits because he sees a lot of pitches, gets a lot of two-strike hits. But I also have this perception that he's increasingly vulnerable these days when it's a pitcher's count, especially to the strikeout. Where's Parker when you need him?

In many cases, they are hittable pitches. In my view, and I did this as a player too, I used that first pitch to see the pitchers motion and time it up. It could be my imagination, but when I did swing and put a first pitch in play nothing good ever came of it. As a result, I was never comfortable swinging at the first pitch. That's my opinion of what he's doing.

I'd be much more concerned about taking the first pitch if Joe wasn't such a good 2 strike hitter.

wsnydes · August 24, 2016

Might be more fair to say "His team's lack of postseason success" or "His lack of postseason opportunity."

He only has 39 postseason PA which is a tiny sum considering he's 13 years in.

He's faired okay (.286/.359/.314) but the sample has been so little it has no positive impact.

I think it's fair to say that it doesn't really have any negative impact either. There just isn't enough there to glean much from it, IMO.

SwainZag · August 24, 2016

That is probably an irrational thing on my part, but I hate it. Help me out. What my eyes see way too often is what looks like a very hittable first pitch. I'm probably wrong about that? I'm surmising that, since he's well-scouted, pitchers "know" he's going to be taking and therefore throw something from their arsenal that they "know" they can throw for a strike, right? And probably not at its nastiest. So, I'm listening to Smalley and other commentators constantly talking about how a hitter's AB depends on taking advantage of the one or two pitches in an AB that they can destroy. I realize Joe gets a ton of walks by being patient, gets hits because he sees a lot of pitches, gets a lot of two-strike hits. But I also have this perception that he's increasingly vulnerable these days when it's a pitcher's count, especially to the strikeout. Where's Parker when you need him?

I guess it depends on what you see is more valuable. Joe is a career .408 hitter on the 1st pitch in the at bat. Does that mean he should swing at more or is him being extremely selective pushing up his numbers? There are only 7 players in baseball this season who see more pitches per plate appearance than Joe, who is currently averaging 4.27 pitcher per PA. I find that extremely valuable as starters generally throw 100 pitches max these days. If Joe was striking out more and/or walking less maybe I would let it bother me. Working a count and waiting for your pitch seems to be a diminishing art anymore with the generation of free swingers.

WiesbadenDAN · August 24, 2016

He accumulated 79 of those IBBs from 2004-2010. The hitter slotted behind Joe in most of those games? Justin Morneau.

So... no.

Well so that is just over half of his career IBB and going through box scores, it seems Cuddyer and Hunter come up quite a bit after Joe and if I remember correctly Justin had a clean up hitter mental block at times. granted FEAR may still have had something to do with some of the IBBs, but I think Lefty/righty match up with more strike out prone outcomes had something to do with it as well. It would be interesting to see who was after Joe for each of those IBBs...but I am way to lazy and scared to prove myself wrong.

kusko_andy · August 24, 2016

"Mauer he participated in six. Mauer has won three career batting titles. No catcher had was a batting championship in about 55 years when Mauer did it the first time, and no American League catcher had ever done."

I don't usually make fun of poor editing, but I thought this passage was radical. :-)

Willihammer · August 24, 2016

Why did Carew move to first base in 1976? Did it have anything to do with the knee injury he suffered in 1970?

Platoon · August 24, 2016

Because it happened light years ago in this "what have you done for me lately" 24 hour news cycle, it's not always easy to remember that Mauer has done 3 times, what no other AL catcher has done, and IIRC 3 out of the 4 times in MLB history what any catcher has done. That is considerably more prestige than saying someone led the league in HR's or BA Percent even 6-7 times. He is all basically all alone in winning battling titles from the full time catching position. I wonder how many catchers MLB has run through the mill in its history?

Mike Sixel · August 24, 2016

Mauer is one of the best hitters ever, in terms of BA and walks. The criticism reads a lot like the Votto criticism. To the person who talked about war and ops.....ops is not an advanced stat at all. It is not in war. Has anyone looked at the stats in context of era, other than war? He did pay in an offensive time, mostly.

My issue with Joe isn't really with Joe, but those on both sides of the love hate gap that have no nuance in their emotion. He isn't some awesome god, nor is he a devil.

Platoon · August 24, 2016

Mauer also suffered from 'Rod Carew Disease'. Everything was so easy for him, he always looked like he lacked effort. And while Sanos stint in RF has virtually ruined the meaning of the following description, he made some of the most athletic plays as a catcher I have ever seen. He obviously loved the position, tis a shame the concussion ended it prematurely.

SwainZag · August 24, 2016

Mauer also suffered from 'Rod Carew Disease'. Everything was so easy for him, he always looked like he lacked effort. And while Sanos stint in RF has virtually ruined the meaning of the following description, he made some of the most athletic plays as a catcher I have ever seen. He obviously loved the position, tis a shame the concussion ended it prematurely.

http://mlbfancave.mlb.com/assets/images/custom/tumblr_mo4u1rJw0i1ro5xweo1_400_tl8m82rv.gif

Kobs · August 25, 2016

It warms my heart that folks still think that they know better than Joe Mauer when it comes to hitting, and it's a good idea for major league players to attempt to "change their approach" depending on where they are in the lineup.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Kobs

Primetime82 · August 25, 2016

This article is weak. So because Joey used to be great and is one of the best Twins of all time he should get a pass for not being very good anymore??? This is Sports, they get paid by the fans to produce now!

If you bought a brand new car in 2001 and it was 2016 but not running good anymore..... commonsense say's you'd probably replace it, especially if you had a newer one sitting there ready!

KGB · August 25, 2016

I think the difference in opinion on Mauer is easy to see when you see he has a 7 year period of hitting .330 with a .900 OPS and a 6 year (probably 8 when his career ends) with a .280 average and a .750 OPS. You really have to be a Mauer fan to see just the productive 7 years and put him in the HOF. Probably not a 75% national fan base in the HOF votes to make that happen.

I admit I'm not a believer in the decline based on a concussion injury, but that discussion has been beaten to death. So I don't believe people have a dislike of Mauer, just a disappointment that a HOF talent isn't going to has a HOF career.

Dantes929 · August 25, 2016

I think the difference in opinion on Mauer is easy to see when you see he has a 7 year period of hitting .330 with a .900 OPS and a 6 year (probably 8 when his career ends) with a .280 average and a .750 OPS. You really have to be a Mauer fan to see just the productive 7 years and put him in the HOF. Probably not a 75% national fan base in the HOF votes to make that happen.

I admit I'm not a believer in the decline based on a concussion injury, but that discussion has been beaten to death. So I don't believe people have a dislike of Mauer, just a disappointment that a HOF talent isn't going to has a HOF career.

I already said I would prefer the HOF be about how brightly the light shines rather than how long it shines. Don't take this to absurd extremes. 7 years with three batting titles would get my vote but I most definitely do not think he will get the votes from those who actually have one. Personally I am a little more disappointed in Hrbek who also had HOF talent but did not take the necessary steps to stay in good enough shape to do it. A little more disappointed but still not very disappointed. He was still fun to watch.

Platoon · August 25, 2016

http://mlbfancave.mlb.com/assets/images/custom/tumblr_mo4u1rJw0i1ro5xweo1_400_tl8m82rv.gif

THIS! Is what I meant. He did that, and the catch while reaching around the back of the screen, like it was just so easy. And for him it was.

Dantes929 · August 25, 2016

That is probably an irrational thing on my part, but I hate it. Help me out. What my eyes see way too often is what looks like a very hittable first pitch. I'm probably wrong about that? I'm surmising that, since he's well-scouted, pitchers "know" he's going to be taking and therefore throw something from their arsenal that they "know" they can throw for a strike, right? And probably not at its nastiest. So, I'm listening to Smalley and other commentators constantly talking about how a hitter's AB depends on taking advantage of the one or two pitches in an AB that they can destroy. I realize Joe gets a ton of walks by being patient, gets hits because he sees a lot of pitches, gets a lot of two-strike hits. But I also have this perception that he's increasingly vulnerable these days when it's a pitcher's count, especially to the strikeout. Where's Parker when you need him?

You said help you out so here goes. I studied this a long time ago and the numbers have changed since then, whether by age or post concussion but the concept was as follows. Mauer and Delmon Young had very similar averages on given counts. They were both great when ahead in the count, good when even in the count and pretty bad when behind in the count. Regardless of what you have heard Mauer is still only a .228 hitter when starting out 0-2. Probably better than average but still really bad. The difference between Mauer and Young then is that Mauer has been ahead in the count more often and the only way to do that is by looking at pitches. The only thing I don't like about Mauer's approach is that it doesn't keep the pitchers honest. If he would swing at the first pitch just a little bit more they would throw better stuff in more careful zones and thus allow him to see their better stuff and thus likely see more first pitch balls which puts him ahead in the count more often from which he shines. Absurd as it is I would like to see him put three pieces of paper in a hat and draw from it each at bat with one of them saying swing at a first pitch cookie. Let the pitchers see it. The result would likely be more first pitch balls.

That is all just my take but the numbers supported it. Mauer and Young were much the same hitter except for patience. Young has had a nice career but no one is talking about his chances for HOF.

jimmer · August 25, 2016

Mauer, from 2005-2013 (9 year span from his first full year to 2013 when he had an OPS of .880, his 3rd best of his career). 7th in the MAJORS in fWAR and 2nd in fWAR in the AL (to, um, PED enhanced ARod). .323/.406/.466 wRC+ of 134. 3 GG, 5 SS, 3 batting titles and an MVP (where he lead the league in BA/OBP/SLG% making him the first AL player in 30 years to do that)

If you expand that to 2005-2014 (making it a 10 year span), he was still 7th in the majors in fWAR and still 2nd for the AL in fWAR.

If you extend it to right now, so 2005-2016 (almost a 12 year span), 11th in the majors for fWAR, 6th in AL.

Edited August 25, 2016 by jimmer

mickeymental · August 25, 2016

i hope the story has a happy ending.

The Wise One · August 25, 2016

I can't help but wonder how things for the Twins and Mauer's career perception would be different if his RBI double in the playoffs had been accurately called fair.

There might be a little more love shown for more people than just Mauer.

KGB · August 25, 2016

Mauer, from 2005-2013 (9 year span from his first full year to 2013 when he had an OPS of .880, his 3rd best of his career). 7th in the MAJORS in fWAR and 2nd in fWAR in the AL (to, um, PED enhanced ARod). .323/.406/.466 wRC+ of 134. 3 GG, 5 SS, 3 batting titles and an MVP (where he lead the league in BA/OBP/SLG% making him the first AL player in 30 years to do that)

If you expand that to 2005-2014 (making it a 10 year span), he was still 7th in the majors in fWAR and still 2nd for the AL in fWAR.

If you extend it to right now, so 2005-2016 (almost a 12 year span), 11th in the majors for fWAR, 6th in AL.

You really can't compare it that way because Mauer played during that total time period and most of the players you are comparing him to didn't play all the years.

If you want to look at a comparison for the years 2004-15 for individual years, here would be his individual year ranks:

Qualifed Years
Season Name Team WAR rank
2009 Joe Mauer Twins 7.60 39
2006 Joe Mauer Twins 5.80 155
2008 Joe Mauer Twins 5.70 168
2013 Joe Mauer Twins 5.20 233
2010 Joe Mauer Twins 5.00 262
2012 Joe Mauer Twins 4.50 356
2005 Joe Mauer Twins 3.40 651
2014 Joe Mauer Twins 1.70 1279
2015 Joe Mauer Twins 0.30 1627

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2016&month=0&season1=2004&ind=1&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&page=1_30

KGB · August 25, 2016

I already said I would prefer the HOF be about how brightly the light shines rather than how long it shines. Don't take this to absurd extremes. 7 years with three batting titles would get my vote but I most definitely do not think he will get the votes from those who actually have one. Personally I am a little more disappointed in Hrbek who also had HOF talent but did not take the necessary steps to stay in good enough shape to do it. A little more disappointed but still not very disappointed. He was still fun to watch.

If the argument is he belongs in the HOF based on JAWS 7 year peak, I'm not sure how looking at the other years in total is absurd. Nothing absurd about flipping over the coin to look at both sides.

I also think Tony Oliva should be in the HOF with his 3 batting titles, but the votes didn't agree with me. Maybe another shot through the veteran committee.

jimmer · August 25, 2016

You really can't compare it that way because Mauer played during that total time period and most of the players you are comparing him to didn't play all the years.

If you want to look at a comparison for the years 2004-15 for individual years, here would be his individual year ranks:

Qualifed Years
Season Name Team WAR rank
2009 Joe Mauer Twins 7.60 39
2006 Joe Mauer Twins 5.80 155
2008 Joe Mauer Twins 5.70 168
2013 Joe Mauer Twins 5.20 233
2010 Joe Mauer Twins 5.00 262
2012 Joe Mauer Twins 4.50 356
2005 Joe Mauer Twins 3.40 651
2014 Joe Mauer Twins 1.70 1279
2015 Joe Mauer Twins 0.30 1627

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2016&month=0&season1=2004&ind=1&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&page=1_30

That's an interesting yet warped idea of how to look at it. Take Mauer's 2009 where he was 4th in WAR and make it 39th. Your look kind of throws out the whole idea of consistent quality performance through a long time span, which is what the HOF should be about, IMO. Averaging 4.4 WAR over a 10 year span (which is what he did from 2005-2014) shows quality performance over a long period. That's averaging at an all star level over a 10 year span.

But interesting nonetheless.

Edited August 25, 2016 by jimmer

jimmer · August 25, 2016

Another way to look at it, AL WAR rankings each year for 10 years. (2005-2014) plus a few accomplishments.

2005: 31st.

2006: tied for 4th (1st batting title ever for an AL catcher, All Star, Silver Slugger, 6th in MVP voting)

2007: tied for 28th

2008: 6th (2nd batting title ever for an AL catcher, All Star, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove, 4th in MVP voting)

2009: 2nd (3rd batting title ever for an AL catcher, All Star, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove, 1st guy in 30 years to lead AL in BA/OBP/SLG and first AL catcher to ever do it, MVP).

2010: 10th (All Star, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove, 8th in MVP voting).

2011: 86th (only played half a season).

2012: tied for 10th (All Star, 19th in MVP voting)

2013: tied for 10th while only playing 113 games. Guy he tied with played 160. (All Star, Silver Slugger).

Those were the pre-concussion years, mostly catcher years. That's 9 years of pretty great work and an average of 4.2 WAR with 6 out of 9 years being in top 10 in AL WAR.

2014: 82nd (post concussion, position switch).

Edited August 25, 2016 by jimmer

Loosey · August 25, 2016

This article is weak. So because Joey used to be great and is one of the best Twins of all time he should get a pass for not being very good anymore??? This is Sports, they get paid by the fans to produce now!

If you bought a brand new car in 2001 and it was 2016 but not running good anymore..... commonsense say's you'd probably replace it, especially if you had a newer one sitting there ready!

yeah but if you still had payments on that car you would most likely continue to drive it. Or you could trade it in or sell it, but there have to be people willing give you what you want for it, which isn't always the case.

Also, if I had a car that lasted from 2001-2015 I would be very happy with that run. I would probably consider that car one of the best cars I had ever owned.

dxpavelka · August 25, 2016

Why did Carew move to first base in 1976? Did it have anything to do with the knee injury he suffered in 1970?

Carew was never a stellar defensive player, certainly not at Mauer's level at his position, especially at turning the double play, and the injury certainly didn't help. The fact that the Twins lacked a classic slugging first baseman at the time contributed as well. The presence of guys like Lyman Bostock, Danny Ford & Larry Hisle helped overcome some of any perceived power shortage his presence at first may have caused.

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