Article: The Twins Way

[Mike Sixel]

"Of course, taking issue with how those in authority run things is almost as ingrained in American culture as baseball itself. On the other hand, whether the subject is government, business or sports, those with no clue about how to actually run something are often the most vocal critics of those who do."

 

This is the most perceptive quote from the article.

 

Another appeal to authority argument. "If you aren't in the job, you can't criticize someone". It is great as a rhetorical tool, but not so great for encouraging democracy and encouraging critical thinking. And what makes people think some of us don't run large parts of companies?

[ThePuck]

Another appeal to authority argument. "If you aren't in the job, you can't criticize someone". It is great as a rhetorical tool, but not so great for encouraging democracy and encouraging critical thinking. And what makes people think some of us don't run large parts of companies?

 

There's that, and as far as that particular part of the article went, it was just plain insulting to some readers. It's when I stopped reading the article...and I'm not the only one who stopped reading at that point either.

[nicksaviking]

I guess my biggest issue with the love of "The Twins Way" is summed up in paragraph two:

 

"But what is The Twins Way? We have some vague idea that it’s about playing good defense, running the bases intelligently, moving runners effectively and, yes, “pitching to contact”

 

To me it just seems so arogent to think the Twins have cornered the market on this. Aside from the archaic PTC philosophy, doesn't every team strive to play good defense and run the bases well? Are we to think the Twins are special because they teach their youngsters fundementals of baseball? EVERY team wants to play good defense and run the bases wisely. Every team wants to move runners over as opposed to hitting in front of the them. Every team wants their outfielders to know when to hit the cut off man.

 

It's conceited to think the Twins either invented these philosophies and/or every other team abandoned them.

[Marta Shearing]

The Twins way:

a. Do not try a pickoff play, ever, especially the catcher, because why risk throwing the ball away?

b. Do not try a squeeze play, ever, because you might lose a baserunner.

c. Do not hit and run -- risk of swing and miss.

d. Do not make yourself into a running team because you might make outs on the bases, even though you are not a power team.

e. Do not try to hit home runs because you might strike out, and anyway, the Twins are more of a "do the little things" type team.

f. Hit the other way, even if it means dinky singles from your number 3 hitter.

g. Play for one run whenever possible, even with one of the worst pitching staffs in the league.

h. Play your backup catcher or 1B in right field as often as possible because you need the offense you aren't getting from them in the first place.

 

So, in essence, it boils down to: Don't take any chances. Don't risk anything. Just play the game the way it is supposed to be played, sacrifice often, run station to station, let the other team hit the ball and go get it -- no passion, no surprises, none of this high risk--high reward stuff. Definitely the most boring team in baseball. Hands down.

 

And now, they are too afraid of having to replace a manager to let him go during the season. Talk about risk averse. A guy who has lost 90 games three years in a row, has a 12-game playoff losing streak and has only won one playoff series -- ever. I mean, the Twins lack of "going for it" -- for anything, anywhere, anytime, is ... for lack of a better word, pathetic.

Great post, but the lack of responses tell me your post is a little too controversial for this forum.

[The Wise One]

Another appeal to authority argument. "If you aren't in the job, you can't criticize someone". It is great as a rhetorical tool, but not so great for encouraging democracy and encouraging critical thinking. And what makes people think some of us don't run large parts of companies?

 

To answer your question without getting a lifetime ban will be difficult. The line from the article was the inflammatory comment I mentioned earlier. People make judgments of people based on what they post and how they respond to other posts. The line in the article is that person's observation, shared by others, on what the vocal critics post. If anything, it is meant to encourage critical thinking before one posts some rant. Personally, I see a lot of very narrow focused frequent complaints that miss the bigger picture. When I managed departments I felt like you needed to see the bigger picture. Maybe these posters have run something, but it might not be evident in how they post. On the other hand, this forum does become a venting session. Venting and critical thinking often do not go together.

[nicksaviking]

The Twins way:

a. Do not try a pickoff play, ever, especially the catcher, because why risk throwing the ball away?

b. Do not try a squeeze play, ever, because you might lose a baserunner.

c. Do not hit and run -- risk of swing and miss.

d. Do not make yourself into a running team because you might make outs on the bases, even though you are not a power team.

e. Do not try to hit home runs because you might strike out, and anyway, the Twins are more of a "do the little things" type team.

f. Hit the other way, even if it means dinky singles from your number 3 hitter.

g. Play for one run whenever possible, even with one of the worst pitching staffs in the league.

h. Play your backup catcher or 1B in right field as often as possible because you need the offense you aren't getting from them in the first place.

 

I agree with the sentiment that the Twins are too conservative, not only in the front office but on the diamond but I don't know that all of these are issues, or at least still issues.

 

The Twins have done a fair amount of hit-and-running in the past, but they haven't had too many guys with even modest speed recently and even fewer guys with on-base skills to be in the position to run. The hit-and-run has dropped off with Mauer batting #3, but I think that has more to do with Mauer's tendancy to drive the ball up the middle, which would be where the middle infielders are heading during a steal. And let's face it, unless Mauer's at the plate, the hit-and-run is kind of stupid with a bunch of sub .300 OBP guys at the plate.

 

While I agree the Twins Way has limited power in the past by preaching going the other way, I think that changed last year when they let righthanders Willingham and Plouffe rip away to left field.

 

I do agree with other complaints though. I hate playing for one run, and I hate pinch running for your best hitter who is standing on 1st with two outs in the 8th or 9th. I hate how much playing time back up catchers get.

[Mike Sixel]

To answer your question without getting a lifetime ban will be difficult. The line from the article was the inflammatory comment I mentioned earlier. People make judgments of people based on what they post and how they respond to other posts. The line in the article is that person's observation, shared by others, on what the vocal critics post. If anything, it is meant to encourage critical thinking before one posts some rant. Personally, I see a lot of very narrow focused frequent complaints that miss the bigger picture. When I managed departments I felt like you needed to see the bigger picture. Maybe these posters have run something, but it might not be evident in how they post. On the other hand, this forum does become a venting session. Venting and critical thinking often do not go together.

 

 

This is fair, and your points are generally spot on. Venting and critical thinking rarely work together. But that wasn't really what was stated, imo. Sometimes venting is cool, sometimes it is just too often, to strongly worded.

 

Personally, I don't think it is true that people that have never had a job can not criticize those that do. What they probably can't do is criticize with certainty.

[Boom Boom]

I think that the "Twins Way" didn't start out as an organizational philosophy, rather it developed around the players the Twins had in the early 2000s. The Twins Way was what those players did well. The Twins didn't have much for power arms or bats, so we celebrated hitting spots and not issuing walks, and hitting the ball to the opposite field for singles. Good defense wasn't unique to the Twins, but when you're an otherwise unspectacular team, you promote your strengths I guess.

 

Later I think it became an expectation that Twins rookies were supposed to live up to, which may or may not have fit their individual talents.

[Marta Shearing]

There's lots of organizational arrogance surrounding the "Twins way". I think the Twins are a little to giddy over winning mediocre Central Divisions when they should be embarassed and apologizing for their woeful, and I mean woeful playoff performances.

[Mike Sixel]

someday I'd like to read an article about the Twins like this.....

 

Aggressive defensive plan has led to Pirates' turnaround | TribLIVE

 

maybe about using only 3 "starters"......but I have my doubts right now. any way to know the percent of other teams (like, say, the Twins) on how much they shift?

[old nurse]

someday I'd like to read an article about the Twins like this.....

 

Aggressive defensive plan has led to Pirates' turnaround | TribLIVE

 

maybe about using only 3 "starters"......but I have my doubts right now. any way to know the percent of other teams (like, say, the Twins) on how much they shift?

 

Pitch to contact and defend is what they are doing.

 

from the article

• Position players had to change. They had to shift from areas of the field where they had been stationed their entire careers and trust the pitching staff's ability to locate pitches.

The last 7 words are kind of key in how P2C works. Effectively for the Pirates, they have a league leading GB rate of 52.4%, and one of the lower LD% It is not shifting alone. It is the overall pitching with defense. When other clubs start to plan for that, hitters will need to adjust.

[nicksaviking]

someday I'd like to read an article about the Twins like this.....

 

Aggressive defensive plan has led to Pirates' turnaround | TribLIVE

 

maybe about using only 3 "starters"......but I have my doubts right now. any way to know the percent of other teams (like, say, the Twins) on how much they shift?

 

Nice article. The idea that the Twins can skimp on payroll and still duplicate the success of the small market Rays, A's and Pirates is folly if this article article is to be believed. If you want to win, having a low payroll can't be the only similarity to these forward thinking clubs.

 

This article helps to demonstrate that taking advantage of 21st century analysis and actually utilizing the results is a key.

[Mike Sixel]

Pitch to contact and defend is what they are doing.

 

from the article

• Position players had to change. They had to shift from areas of the field where they had been stationed their entire careers and trust the pitching staff's ability to locate pitches.

The last 7 words are kind of key in how P2C works. Effectively for the Pirates, they have a league leading GB rate of 52.4%, and one of the lower LD% It is not shifting alone. It is the overall pitching with defense. When other clubs start to plan for that, hitters will need to adjust.

 

Agreed, it is about a lot of things working together strategically. Pitching, fielding, FO, coaches, statisticians, everyone.......I don't get that feeling in MN at all, but for all we know they are acting this way, and it just isn't working.

[old nurse]

Agreed, it is about a lot of things working together strategically. Pitching, fielding, FO, coaches, statisticians, everyone.......I don't get that feeling in MN at all, but for all we know they are acting this way, and it just isn't working.

 

The Twin's shifting might not have been as dramatic, more shading. Somebody who watched more games in the glory days could confirm that. The Twins wanted GB type pitchers. That is why the Twins were drafting control type pitchers. Two small problems. If a two seam doesn't do what it is supposed to do it becomes a line drive going the other way. The other problem is a control pitcher can get injured, too. When both happen to your staff, the result is the Twins staff, not the Pirates.

In the end it is still about having talent. There is only three ways to add talent. Develop it, which is hard to do when you draft poorly. Trade for it, which you need to have something to get something. Sign a free agent that has something left. Tampa, Oakland and Pittsburg are riding with the ability to get by on the first two methods while needing only to add a spare part inexpensively by FA. When you have a string of poor drafts and poor trades, you don't have much to trade nor play.

[Blackjack]

This was a very good article. Thank you. While I understand the impatience and even anger that many show towards the Twins organization, I tend to appreciate what the Ryan and others are trying to do here. I am old enough to remember when the Twins came to Minnesota in 61. In over 50 years of Twins baseball, there have been 2 periods of sustained competitive baseball by the Twins. The mid-sixties to early seventies stretch and the 2000's stretch. The 87 Twins and 91 Twins were exciting and fun, but both were the kind of rather flukey years that happen in baseball, not really the result of a strong and deep organization.

 

I am excited for might happen over the next 10 years or so. The Twins have acquired some very fine front line talent, potential superstars. Things might happen and that might not occur, but clearly the talent is there. What I like, as you suggest, is that the Twins have not abandoned what has worked for them before. There are a number of potential Radkes and solid positional talent in the organization. Guys who will likely get the most out of their talent, and they could turn out to be better players then we currently expect.

 

What is needed is a certain amount of patience. I have nothing against going out buying some front line starting pitching, even if it means overpaying. What I hope we don't see, is getting too impatient and trading potential front line talent for 2 years of even very good pitching. I think Kansas City will regret trading Myers even though the trade has made them much more competitive than they would have been without the trade. The discussion yesterday about trading Rosario illustrates what I mean. If you are sure he isn't a front line talent and he can bring back 2 or more years of top flight pitching, make the deal. But he could be pretty special, I think, and making this sort of deal is probably pretty short sighted. It could make you more competitive right now, but is highly unlikely to turn you into a playoff team, and will almost certainly make you worse 3 or 4 years from now.

 

Personally, and I realize that many don't feel this way, I want a team that has a good chance to be competitive year after year for many years. I don't believe in rolling the dice and trying extra hard for a World Series in any particular year. It is too easy for what happened to Toronto this year to happen and now you have morgaged your future, saddled yourself with long term contracts that you can't easily get rid of, and each year your chances of competing get worst.

 

Again I appreciate, your post.

 

 

Good post!!! KC will regret trading Will Myers for the next 15 years!!

[Mike Sixel]

The Twin's shifting might not have been as dramatic, more shading. Somebody who watched more games in the glory days could confirm that. The Twins wanted GB type pitchers. That is why the Twins were drafting control type pitchers. Two small problems. If a two seam doesn't do what it is supposed to do it becomes a line drive going the other way. The other problem is a control pitcher can get injured, too. When both happen to your staff, the result is the Twins staff, not the Pirates.

In the end it is still about having talent. There is only three ways to add talent. Develop it, which is hard to do when you draft poorly. Trade for it, which you need to have something to get something. Sign a free agent that has something left. Tampa, Oakland and Pittsburg are riding with the ability to get by on the first two methods while needing only to add a spare part inexpensively by FA. When you have a string of poor drafts and poor trades, you don't have much to trade nor play.

 

Oakland signed a Cuban FA for real money....even they have done it.

[Rick Blaine]

Some perspective...

 

Wouldn't a one year Johan Santana signing this winter be very similar? Johan would be a year younger than Jack. He hasn't had a good season for three years. I looked for a different comp that was healthy but there aren't very many guys that put up ERA+ of 79 and 89 and continue getting the ball every fifth day.

 

.

 

I would bring back Johan Santana just because he is Johan Santana. A wounded Johan Santana would be more fun to watch than most members of the current rotation.

[old nurse]

Oakland signed a Cuban FA for real money....even they have done it.

 

The exchange was about pitching. I was not aware that Cespedes was pitching.

[Kobs]

There is no such thing as the "Twins Way." There was Tom Kelly's way. He retired. Now the Twins are a stodgy old franchise that doesn't even attempt to innovate in order to overcome their self imposed financial shortcomings.