Why Don't the Twins Re-Sign Minority Players

[Ultima Ratio]

I think it would serve this community well to take a look at the underrepresentation of minorities at TwinsCentric and ask, “why don’t TwinsDaily and TwinsCentric hire, publish on the front page, and link to minority contributors at the same frequency as white contributors.

 

Of course this is absurd, and therefore so is the question of this thread.

 

 

Now, let’s get back to baseball.

[twinsnorth49]

The Twins made what they thought were good baseball decisions at the time, there are too many variables, age, length of contract, reallocating resources from a position of strength to a position of weakness, players coming through the system. To suggest these moves were made to appease a fan base more fond of caucasian players is insulting.

 

As an aside, as a Canadian I do find it interesting how much more prevalent these issues still are in America. Racism clearly is still alive and well but too often focus is placed on people who seem to be looking for it where it doesn't exist. Being vigilant is one thing, making unfounded, irresponsible accusations or assumptions are not. I guess that's free speech though.

 

VodkaDave, you forgot Rene Tosoni and Scott Diamond, both proud Canadians!! This team has always supported the Canadian boys more than "Canada's Team" The Toronto Blue Jays (Brett Lawrie aside......man I wish we had him).

[Shane Wahl]

The argument in the story isn't that these moves were made for racial reasons. The suggestion was that a team feels more pressure to hang onto players with which that fan base identifies and a Minnesota fan base identifies more with Mauer and Nathan than Hunter and Santana.

 

We can go back and forth on specifics, but I don't see any significant differences in the situations that explains why two deals got done and two didn't. If the Twins would've kept Hunter and Santana and let Mauer and Nathan go for exactly the same money, we would be saying the same thing about Mauer/Nathan that we say about Santana/Hunter: they wanted too long of a deal, they were too expensive, etc.

 

That doesn't mean that the Twins made a decision based on the color of the players' skin. They may have made it because they felt like the fan base demanded it, or because they felt like the players wanted to stay more, or because they were more popular. But then the question can be asked: why would the fan base demand it more, why would the players want to stay more, why were they more popular?

I'm guessing you think the comparable situations (closest in age) are:

 

1. Joe Mauer vs. Johan Santana

2. Torii Hunter vs. Joe Nathan

 

1. Mauer was (is?) first and foremost the Minnesotan hometown boy who everybody loved (loves?). I would say he is wholly unique. He also very much wanted to stay a Twin. Santana didn't want to stay! That is the most important thing about this in his case. Should they have offered more money? Absolutely. Years? I don't know. Of course he may not have gotten hurt if he had stayed with the Twins (or, given how things are around here, his arm could have literally come off).

 

2. Joe Nathan was performing at Marianoesque levels. He was definitely a top 3 closer and the Twins are crazy about their closers, as you well know. And closers don't depreciate given age nearly as much as CF. Signing Hunter for 5 years was just not wise at all (let's say 5 years, $65 million). That is a LOT different than 3 years and $34 million. In fact, weren't the Twins willing to pay Hunter something like that same amount? Or was it 3 years and $45 million?

 

There are significant differences in the situations.

 

(I disagree with the sentiments of many in this thread who want to totally discredit the issue, though I think riverbrian is probably correct).

[Shane Wahl]

Also, the comparison with Latin American players and Nishioka is totally silly. A. The Twins invested, what, $15 million, in Nishioka. B. Latin American players are not isolated from other Spanish speakers like Nishi was/is from other Japanese speakers.

[twinzgrl]

The Twins gave Kirby Puckett the most lucrative contract in MLB to keep him here. I was sad when Torii left, but I understand that economics drives everything. I don't think the Twins care what nationality a player is, they just want the BEST players that they can get. Look at Nishi...couldn't even speak English.

[Shane Wahl]

But yes, the article makes it sound like Minnesotans are white-lovin' hilljacks who just want "their own" on the team. That is just wrong. God, how people get paid to write such drivel . . .

[Teflon]

I wonder how this topic coexists with Torii Hunter's accusation from a couple of seasons ago that MLB teams would rather sign Latin players than African-American players because they cost less. ('Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?' was Torii's famous quote) One argument would seem to invalidate the other. Everyone looks at a thing and tends to imprint upon it their own beliefs. It's much easier to rationalize your situation when you're a victim of some greater conspiracy as opposed to just on the unfortunate side of an outcome.

 

Terry Ryan is the same GM who went out and signed Shannon Stewart to bolster the Twins outfield in 2003. Stewart was in the final year of his contact. The Twins resigned him for a pretty significant chunk of change for them at that time - 3 years, 18 million dollars.

[twinsnorth49]

But yes, the article makes it sound like Minnesotans are white-lovin' hilljacks who just want "their own" on the team. That is just wrong. God, how people get paid to write such drivel . . .

From all my experiences in Minnesota, you're right, that is just flat out wrong.

[Shane Wahl]

The writer should find actual institutional racism. Baseball, in general, does have race issues (Latin American player treatment, and its desirability to young African-Americans).

 

Can't wait to see how this guy responds to the Wolves telling Michael Beasley to go away in the coming offseason while they gave K-Love that money-love

[Riverbrian]

But yes, the article makes it sound like Minnesotans are white-lovin' hilljacks who just want "their own" on the team. That is just wrong. God, how people get paid to write such drivel . . .

Bingo... I have two sons 18 and 14 years old. I want to believe with all my heart that this crap is going the way of the Dinosaur and that is the world they will live in and it will be even better for my Grand kids.

 

Yes it's still out there and less and less of it everyday. That's what we do as a society... We advance!!! We get better!!! Writing this article gives the wrong impression of Minnesotans indirectly and it assumes that our front office staff are idiots because Minnesotans are. It puts the attention on false racist situations and therefore clouds the honest to god real ones that still need to be stamped out.

[Paul]

The author, Jesse Mandell-McClinon, concludes that it isn't a classic "white vs. others" racism. Rather, it is an organization catering to the players with which the majority of their fans identify. And that the Twins aren't the only organization that does this: ...

 

...So my conclusion is that there aren't a lot of data points, certainly fewer than the author suggests there are, and probably too few to draw any big conclusions. ...

 

I didn't read the article cited so I don't know what kind of spin was put on this by the author but, he most certainly put his finger on ONE of the MULTITUDE of dynamics that are considered in the decision process of who gets hired by MLB teams. This particular dynamic probably carries little or no weight with the Twins, but anyone who believes Texas and St Louis don't covet "good ole boys", or the Marlins don't like the Latin guys, or this was not a factor in Ichiro being in Seatle is being naive. This is not to say this consideration is right or wrong...but it does exist. This is definitely not politicly correct, and I'm sure that every single team would vehemently deny this. But it's about money. In business, if there's a nickel in it, it gets looked at.

[JB_Iowa]

"We advance!!! We get better!!!"

 

I agree with that portion of Riverbrian's post. While I can't speak for Minnesota, I do know that even in small town Iowa, we have much more racial and cultural diversity than we did 30 years ago (or 50 years ago when I was a child).

 

But that doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist and it doesn't mean that it doesn't subconsciously play a part in the decisions that this team makes. I laughed at Riverbrian's 4:05 post ticking off items and banging the gavel down -- becaue rarely is anything going to be that clean-cut.

 

We are all influenced by our own backgrounds. Aside from the scouting director, I believe that most of the decision makers in the front office are white males (and starting to edge upward in age just by virtue of having risen to their position). That background is going to influence their decision-making. Would they go out and commission a poll to find out whether upper Midwesterners would prefer a mostly white team (or prefer that white players be given the big extensions)? Of course not. Subconsciously might they have that belief and might it influence their decision-making? Probably.

 

Racisim (in any business or profession or organization) will only be eliminated when there is diversity at all levels of the organization -- including the highest levels of decision-making. Hopefully that will occur over time.

 

 

(And if Thrylos is saying that the Twins need to show more support for Latin American players by diversifying their coaching staffs and front office personnel and by adding more translators, etc. I think he has a pretty valid point).

[VodkaDave]

That is just wrong. God, how people get paid to write such drivel . . .

Bloggers for the most part don't get paid (rightfully so), or at least nothing worthwhile. Of course the top 1% can/do get paid a decent amount, but those people actually have talent and don't write blogs on such bating/stupid things like "are the twins racist? A through derpnalysis"

 

Unfort this is one of the problems with the internet, any idiot with some time on there hands can post absurd articles, thus cluttering everything up and often hiding the truly good and worthwhile blogs/articles such as Seth and Nick, who I am glad are seeing getting a bigger following now! Unfortunately Seth and Nick are the rare exception amongst "sports bloggers"

[Riverbrian]

"We advance!!! We get better!!!"

 

I agree with that portion of Riverbrian's post. While I can't speak for Minnesota, I do know that even in small town Iowa, we have much more racial and cultural diversity than we did 30 years ago (or 50 years ago when I was a child).

 

But that doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist and it doesn't mean that it doesn't subconsciously play a part in the decisions that this team makes. I laughed at Riverbrian's 4:05 post ticking off items and banging the gavel down -- becaue rarely is anything going to be that clean-cut.

 

We are all influenced by our own backgrounds. Aside from the scouting director, I believe that most of the decision makers in the front office are white males (and starting to edge upward in age just by virtue of having risen to their position). That background is going to influence their decision-making. Would they go out and commission a poll to find out whether upper Midwesterners would prefer a mostly white team (or prefer that white players be given the big extensions)? Of course not. Subconsciously might they have that belief and might it influence their decision-making? Probably.

 

Racisim (in any business or profession or organization) will only be eliminated when there is diversity at all levels of the organization -- including the highest levels of decision-making. Hopefully that will occur over time.

 

 

(And if Thrylos is saying that the Twins need to show more support for Latin American players by diversifying their coaching staffs and front office personnel and by adding more translators, etc. I think he has a pretty valid point).

I can't argue with anything you posted here. I'd be willing to bet that there are Twins employees with unenlighted tendencies. Percentages suggest it's likely possible... However, I still don't buy that Terry Ryan and final decisions would be based upon what Minnesotans prefer. The Whole thought of that is idiocy. The baseball fan determing the fate of the franchise directly. Why scout at all in that case. Just go to the fans for a popularity poll. Staff the team by the winners of the poll and watch the team lose and the fans quit attending. It's no way to run a franchise. The baseball fan doesn't know anything about the players involved and Kirby Puckett increased attendence(I assumed) so I don't believe the fans think that way as a majority anyway.

 

Could a one scout or two or three assume a kid is trouble and therefore down play his advocacy of that prospect because of race or upbringing. Yes.

Taking the opposite approach... Could a Scout assume that a kid doesn't jump high enough because he's from Minnesota... Yes

There are old time scouts who probably still talk about prospects having the good face.

 

Can I have my gavel back? I think you just hid it on me.

[John Bonnes]

But yes, the article makes it sound like Minnesotans are white-lovin' hilljacks who just want "their own" on the team. That is just wrong. God, how people get paid to write such drivel . . .

I didn't get that from the story at all. I thought it tried very hard to point out what a couple of posters have pointed out; if there is any racism, it's almost completely subconscious. I think it's worth considering, that our background influences us all on a gut level. And that gut level impacts how much we connect to people. How much we connect to people influences how desperately we cling to them.

[JB_Iowa]

"I still don't buy that Terry Ryan and final decisions would be based upon what Minnesotans prefer. "

 

I don't think TR makes his decisions based on what Minnesotans prefer, either. BUT I do think that marketing factors have played a role in the baseball decisions. I don't think that the Twins look only at baseball statistics in making their decisions -- I think that character and the way a player fits into the team and community also play a factor. AND, when it comes to the big $$$ contracts, I think that they have to be looking at the player's marketability. How much $$$ will that player bring in from merchandise sales? Will signing him boost ticket sales? I think most people think that those factors played a significant role in the size of the Mauer contract.

 

And, I have a hard time believing that the Scouts got Nishioka THAT wrong. I have to think that opening up the Japanese market played some role in his signing.

 

So yes, I think that the front office is influenced by factors other than baseball skills -- and subconsciously that may include race. I'm definitely not saying that race is the only factor and I'm not saying that there is any empirical evidence suggesting that it is even a determining factor. But I don't think you can say with certainty that race has no influence when they think about marketability.

 

Having said all that, I think that TR is probably less influenced by marketing factors than Bill Smith was.

[John Bonnes]

I just want to thank the community here for contributing to this discussion in a thoughtful way. Emotions can run awfully high with this topic, and I was hesitant to even start it. It's really nice to see this community handle it so well. THANK YOU.

[Riverbrian]

"I still don't buy that Terry Ryan and final decisions would be based upon what Minnesotans prefer. "

 

I don't think TR makes his decisions based on what Minnesotans prefer, either. BUT I do think that marketing factors have played a role in the baseball decisions. I don't think that the Twins look only at baseball statistics in making their decisions -- I think that character and the way a player fits into the team and community also play a factor. AND, when it comes to the big $$$ contracts, I think that they have to be looking at the player's marketability. How much $$$ will that player bring in from merchandise sales? Will signing him boost ticket sales? I think most people think that those factors played a significant role in the size of the Mauer contract.

 

And, I have a hard time believing that the Scouts got Nishioka THAT wrong. I have to think that opening up the Japanese market played some role in his signing.

 

So yes, I think that the front office is influenced by factors other than baseball skills -- and subconsciously that may include race. I'm definitely not saying that race is the only factor and I'm not saying that there is any empirical evidence suggesting that it is even a determining factor. But I don't think you can say with certainty that race has no influence when they think about marketability.

 

Having said all that, I think that TR is probably less influenced by marketing factors than Bill Smith was.

lol... Once again everything you say is pointless to argue with because it makes perfect sense.

 

Stats - Yes

Character - Yes

Community Involvement - Yes

Marketability - Yes

 

I just don't believe that Minnesotans as a whole would care enough about race in this context enough to move the needle in the wrong direction and the thought of that... gives me the chills.

 

Now if the discussion is... If Minnesotans as a whole would personally hire minorities... rent to... walk dark streets at night with or trust their unattended running car in the vicinity of as a whole. Well, Minnesotans can be as clueless as every other state in that department. That's the stuff that needs the light shined upon it because Norwegian descendants could steal your car as well.

 

In Sports... The state would flood with Ichiro Jerseys... Jose Reyes Jerseys... Matt Kemp Jerseys...

 

Just like the do with Adrian Peterson Jerseys.

 

Now Delmon Young wasn't going to be given a deal because he was Delmon Young. Tom Herr wasn't going to get a deal either because he was Tom Herr.

 

So again if True... The Front Office decision makers are idiots if they sub-consciously make decisions in this sense. I'm not arguing with you... because I think you think the same. At least I think you think that I think what you think.

[TheLink]

KIRBY PUCKETT!!! There I can put this nightmare thread behind me.

 

http://i.imgur.com/wHSHb.jpg

 

Wow, this thread, wow, just wow. Wow. Wow! Wow! Colin Cowherd wants his bit back.

 

So 12 months from now when the Twins fail to resign Pavano will we have a thread titled:

 

Why don't the Twins Re-Sign bisexual* players?

 

Or perhaps:

 

The Pohlads: Haters of America, lovers of Socialism: The Justin Morneau and Corey Koskie theories.

 

*According to some seemingly shady guy who was trying to extort Pavano.

 

Why is this thread topic so bad? Isn't point of forum to talk about different observations, opinions, or thoughts? Just because a thread topic is started doesn't mean you are required to read or comment. I mean doesn't it get tiring talking about Twins rotation after awhile.

[Jim H]

This is a fairly blatent example of selecting facts to fit your argument and ignoring anything else that doesn't fit. A great many guys over the last ten years have not been resigned, both minorities and whites. Koskie, Jones, Cuddyer, Guzman, Kubel and others fit into this catergory. The author ignored the resignings of Puckett and Stewart. Also various extentions to the Hunter, Silva, Santana and others.

 

What I think is, that managment is committed to fielding the best team possible within a set budget. Largely, they try to avoid committing large amounts of money to players with declining skills.

 

Racism is a topic that is certainly worth exploring as it relates to the sports world. But, I think this is a rather poorly presented argument and it should be largely ignored.

[jimbo92107]

I haven't noticed a racial or racist trend how the Twins form their roster. All the players they've drafted have fit a profile that comes from their baseball philosophy. They have acquired black, white, hispanic, etc, with no apparent concern over skin color.

 

How many of us (and the Twins) want to see Benson LF, Hicks CF, Span RF?

 

If there's one flaw in the Twins contract philosophy, it's that they're cheapskates. They let Santana and Hunter go because they thought they could get by with cheaper players. Same with Orlando Hudson. Some leave because they're too expensive, some because they're dubious investments, some because they don't fit the long term plans.

 

I'd be interested to hear Jesse Mandell-McClinon's opinion of this matter a few years from now, when Hicks, Sano, Rosario, etc., are regulars. Or maybe Sano and Rosario don't count, because their names end in a vowel... ;-)

[Riverbrian]

You know what this thread needs... A joke...

 

What does Plouffe and Beloit have in common?

[Riverbrian]

Both are the sound you hear when you drop a quarter in the toilet.

 

I crack me up... lol... Plouffe and Beloit. lol... I need a rimshot or laugh track or something. Thank you... I'll be here all week.

[clutterheart]

Dear John

What a stupid thread.

You know its not true and you know the only way to support this argument is to utilize Cherry Picking and other logical fallacies. Yet you repost it and give it publicity.

 

Why?

Did the guy who wrote it pay you off to give his site hits?

Is your site numbers lagging so you decide to post something "controversial?"

 

By linking to it you give it credence, then you allow other cherry pickers like thylos98 to chime in with their own zany conspiracy theories laden with other logical fallacies.

 

You should feel bad about what you did here

[John Bonnes]

The author ignored the resignings of Puckett and Stewart. Also various extentions to the Hunter, Silva, Santana and others.

I hadn't thought of Stewart. It's a fantastic counter-example. A couple of people here have mentioned Puckett, but I don't consider that as particularly compelling, mostly because it was 20 years ago. But Stewart is a great example that it took 50 replies for someone to mention.

[Riverbrian]

Both are the sound you hear when you drop a quarter in the toilet.

 

I crack me up... lol... Plouffe and Beloit. lol... I need a rimshot or laugh track or something. Thank you... I'll be here all week.

You know what I did. I put this great joke in a thread that was way too serious. I have to move it someplace else .

[Riverbrian]

I hadn't thought of Stewart. It's a fantastic counter-example. A couple of people here have mentioned Puckett, but I don't consider that as particularly compelling, mostly because it was 20 years ago. But Stewart is a great example that it took 50 replies for someone to mention.

John... Seriously. Stewart means very little. This whole thought process was flawed and pure torture from the beginning. I seriously hope Stewart didn't bring you over. Your too smart for that.

[shawntheroad]

I remember when Nathan and Morneau got their money after letting Hunter and Santana go. The impression i got at the time was, "we really wanted to keep those guys, but they were TOO expensive, but we'll keep these other elite players that don't cost quite as much". I think they extended Cuddyer as well, but one of the 3 got what Santana or Hunter got and they were all younger. I think the player's race is a coincidence here.

[John Bonnes]

Dear John

What a stupid thread.

You know its not true and you know the only way to support this argument is to utilize Cherry Picking and other logical fallacies. Yet you repost it and give it publicity.

 

Why?

Did the guy who wrote it pay you off to give his site hits?

Is your site numbers lagging so you decide to post something "controversial?"

 

By linking to it you give it credence, then you allow other cherry pickers like thylos98 to chime in with their own zany conspiracy theories laden with other logical fallacies.

 

You should feel bad about what you did here

I don't.

 

Initially, I pointed out the inconsistencies which I assume you're referring to. (I forgot about Stewart, but that's why we talk these things out.) But I was struck by the Santana/Hunter vs. Mauer/Nathan dichotomy, particularly Hunter/Nathan. There may have been particulars behind the scenes in each that made the difference, but from a general standpoint, they look very similar. To be honest, I still haven't seen a reply that totally satisfies my question as to why the situations between those four players were so cut and dried different. Or maybe it is coincidence.

 

You want to know why I asked the question? Because several times per year I'm privately asked various questions about the Twins and race, that's why. Some of that may be left over from Calvin Griffith years, where it was an awfully touchy subject. But when it's a thoughtful question (or accusation), and I don't have a great answer, rather than play the Outrage Card, I choose to say "I don't know" and think about it. Or even to dare to discuss it out loud.

 

Which is what I did today. But now it's time for bed. I think I'll sleep OK.

[Mchans24]

This thread is a joke. So tired of the race topic coming up about EVERYTHING!!!!! Kirby Puckett, Dave Winfield, Chilli Davis, Shane Mack, Denard Span, traded Matt Garza for Delmon Young, it goes on and on. I refuse to even acknowledge the article.