Twins (Kremer) vs Tigers (Anderson): 09/08/26, 5:40 PM

[HarmonK03]

1 minute ago, SE23 said:

I can live with Caratini as one of our catchers in the same way I can live with Josh Bell as our DH. Or Royce Lewis as our 1B. I'm not thrilled, but we can't upgrade every position every year.

If you have that many holes maybe you need to look at your approach and is why Zoll needs to be gone.  I can live with Caratini as the backup but the plan right as we know it is for him to be our primary catcher.  It was  a bad plan set in place by Falvey when he signed him and it still is.

[SE23]

2 minutes ago, HarmonK03 said:

If you have that many holes maybe you need to look at your approach and is why Zoll needs to be gone.  I can live with Caratini as the backup but the plan right as we know it is for him to be our primary catcher.  It was  a bad plan set in place by Falvey when he signed him and it still is.

Maybe we can trade Lewis, Larnach and Ryan to the A's for Langeliers.

[mnfireman]

6 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

You can just call me Bill.

 

[MeleMouth]

13 minutes ago, HarmonK03 said:

Look at his history, he has never played more than 87 games at catcher with a career OPS of .685 and he will turn 34 next year.  He is not a number 1 catcher and we will be missing Jeffers if that is the plan.

I don't think Caratini is the primary catcher on a championship team, but I don't think he'll be awful, either. 

Also, the stats I see show he caught 101 games in 2021 and 90 in 2022. He didn't catch as much in 2023 because the Brewers got William Contreras or in 2024 or 2025 because Yainer Diaz was hitting well for the Astros, but he was solid when he played.

[MeleMouth]

3 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

 

Al, Bill, OK, just don't call me late for dinner.

[HarmonK03]

2 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

I don't think Caratini is the primary catcher on a championship team, but I don't think he'll be awful, either. 

Also, the stats I see show he caught 101 games in 2021 and 90 in 2022. He didn't catch as much in 2023 because the Brewers got William Contreras or in 2024 or 2025 because Yainer Diaz was hitting well for the Astros, but he was solid when he played.

So he's not a catcher on a championship team, than what is our goal next year.  If you are not playing to win, you should be rebuilding.  That is the problem the talent level needs to be raised and Caratini as our number 1 catcher doesn't do that.

You are correct on the number of games, I was looking at starts.

[MeleMouth]

9 minutes ago, HarmonK03 said:

If you have that many holes maybe you need to look at your approach and is why Zoll needs to be gone.  I can live with Caratini as the backup but the plan right as we know it is for him to be our primary catcher.  It was  a bad plan set in place by Falvey when he signed him and it still is.

If you think Zoll should have improved all of these positions in the last year, under the budget guidelines and mixed messages given by ownership, the only person realistic to replace him with is Glinda the Good Witch.

[HarmonK03]

1 minute ago, MeleMouth said:

If you think Zoll should have improved all of these positions in the last year, under the budget guidelines and mixed messages given by ownership, the only person realistic to replace him with is Glinda the Good Witch.

Falvey set this roster not Zoll.  Falvey had at least $14m to spend last year and he chose to spend it on Bell to play 1B and Caratini as the backup catcher after trading for Jackson.

I am fairly certain Zoll had a hand in this roster construction during the offseason as Falvey's right hand man.  This is not on ownership, this is on Falvey and Zoll who have constructed a team that will have made the playoffs once in the past six years unless they pull off a miracle this year.

[MeleMouth]

1 minute ago, HarmonK03 said:

So he's not a catcher on a championship team, than what is our goal next year.  If you are not playing to win, you should be rebuilding.  That is the problem the talent level needs to be raised and Caratini as our number 1 catcher doesn't do that.

You are correct on the number of games, I was looking at starts.

They should have been rebuilding this year, but chose instead to try to sneak into the playoffs with an 80-82 record. They're going to have to rebuild eventually instead of continuing with this "competitive rebuild" fantasy, unless, of course, Tommy P decides to double the budget, but even then there just aren't enough good free agents available this winter to make that plan likely of success next year. Nor do they have enough tradeable prospects to get a major talent infusion.

[mnfireman]

18 minutes ago, SE23 said:

I can live with Caratini as one of our catchers in the same way I can live with Josh Bell as our DH. Or Royce Lewis as our 1B. I'm not thrilled, but we can't upgrade every position every year.

Among MLB players who are qualified for the batting title, Bell's DH statistics aren't bad. He's horrible at 1B and this team doesn't really need a full-time DH, but he's been alright as a DH...

[Parfigliano]

20 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

You can just call me Bill.

Mr James if you're nasty.

[mnfireman]

1 minute ago, Parfigliano said:

Mr James if you're nasty.

No wardrobe malfunctions allowed....

[MeleMouth]

1 minute ago, HarmonK03 said:

Falvey set this roster not Zoll.  Falvey had at least $14m to spend last year and he chose to spend it on Bell to play 1B and Caratini as the backup catcher after trading for Jackson.

I am fairly certain Zoll had a hand in this roster construction during the offseason as Falvey's right hand man.  This is not on ownership, this is on Falvey and Zoll who have constructed a team that will have made the playoffs once in the past six years unless they pull off a miracle this year.

Oh, boy, he had at least fourteen million!! How could he have failed to get three great players?!

Tell us: if you could go back to last winter, whom you would have signed for $14 million that would have made a big difference this year?

[MeleMouth]

2 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Among MLB players who are qualified for the batting title, Bell's DH statistics aren't bad. He's horrible at 1B and this team doesn't really need a full-time DH, but he's been alright as a DH...

Among qualifying DH's, Bell is 13th of 16 in wRC+. Not great.

[MeleMouth]

4 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

No wardrobe malfunctions allowed....

On Twins Daily, that means not wearing your Brewers jersey while you type.

[HarmonK03]

2 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

Oh, boy, he had at least fourteen million!! How could he have failed to get three great players?!

Tell us: if you could go back to last winter, whom you would have signed for $14 million that would have made a big difference this year?

I would have used the money on the bullpen which was a real need.  

Other teams can win without huge payrolls but Falvey was unable to work with the resources given him.

[ashbury]

17 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

Al, Bill, OK, just don't call me late for dinner.

[HarmonK03]

7 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

They should have been rebuilding this year, but chose instead to try to sneak into the playoffs with an 80-82 record. They're going to have to rebuild eventually instead of continuing with this "competitive rebuild" fantasy, unless, of course, Tommy P decides to double the budget, but even then there just aren't enough good free agents available this winter to make that plan likely of success next year. Nor do they have enough tradeable prospects to get a major talent infusion.

This is why we need a real baseball leader that can come up with a plan and help the business side sell it to the fans.

[Parfigliano]

5 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

Among qualifying DH's, Bell is 13th of 16 in wRC+. Not great.

In that chart Bell is tied with Ohtani and Diaz for 2nd in RBI.  Schwarber leads.

[SE23]

3 minutes ago, HarmonK03 said:

This is why we need a real baseball leader that can come up with a plan and help the business side sell it to the fans.

How about we sign Carson Kelly to split catching duty with Vic in 2027-28. By mid-2028 Lackey or Diaw or Tait or Tinney (or Nunez) can take over.

[MeleMouth]

Just now, HarmonK03 said:

I would have used the money on the bullpen which was a real need.  

Other teams can win without huge payrolls but Falvey was unable to work with the resources given him.

Who would you have signed? The three most notable relievers who signed for $14 million/year or under were Ryan Helsley, Pete Fairbanks, and Kenley Jansen. All have been mediocre at best. Tyler Rogers and Luke Weaver had better years and were around that price point, but they are more the exception. Similarly, Seranthony Dominguez, Brad Keller, and Emilio Pagan were around there. No thank you. So maybe six of eight (75%) would have been bad signings.

Further, if one of those pitchers had been signed, the Twins probably wouldn't have signed either Caratini or Bell. Neither of those players is an all-star, but they had value.

It's Ee-Zee to criticize Zoll when you're at 100,000 feet and can just say "do better or else," but when you start looking at the details of the limits he had to work within and the actual choices he could have made, it's a lot harder.  

[HarmonK03]

5 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

Who would you have signed? The three most notable relievers who signed for $14 million/year or under were Ryan Helsley, Pete Fairbanks, and Kenley Jansen. All have been mediocre at best. Tyler Rogers and Luke Weaver had better years and were around that price point, but they are more the exception. Similarly, Seranthony Dominguez, Brad Keller, and Emilio Pagan were around there. No thank you. So maybe six of eight (75%) would have been bad signings.

Further, if one of those pitchers had been signed, the Twins probably wouldn't have signed either Caratini or Bell. Neither of those players is an all-star, but they had value.

It's Ee-Zee to criticize Zoll when you're at 100,000 feet and can just say "do better or else," but when you start looking at the details of the limits he had to work within and the actual choices he could have made, it's a lot harder.  

It was Falvey who made the final call on the signings.  Zoll was still number 2.  

What I can do is look at results, 1 playoff appearance in six years with Falvey and Zoll as the top two baseball decision makers.  It is their job to put together a sustainable winning organization and they haven't done it.

[mnfireman]

22 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

Among qualifying DH's, Bell is 13th of 16 in wRC+. Not great.

There's 12 pages of qualified batters who have appeared as a DH for at least 1 PA, Bell is 10th in fWAR. Can't really sort by wRC+ because there are a lot of guys that have enough qualifying PAs but have only played 1 or 2 games at DH and have a crazy wRC+ as a DH. The point is he has not been horrible as a DH, but this team didn't really need a full-time DH...

[MeleMouth]

4 minutes ago, SE23 said:

How about we sign Carson Kelly to split catching duty with Vic in 2027-28. By mid-2028 Lackey or Diaw or Tait or Tinney (or Nunez) can take over.

That's probably the best option at a mid-tier price point, but not without risks. (1) Kelly will be 33 next year and could be trending down. (2) Kelly might more money and more years than we're comfortable with. It would be reasonable for him to want at least the same 3 x $10 million contract the Twins gave to Christian Vasquez, with a higher annual amount because it's four years later and he's frankly a more valuable player. That longer term would conflict with the mid-2028 goal, unless you're comfortable with paying perhaps $12 million/year for a back-up catcher.

Note also that Statcast claims that Caratini's expected offense is actually better than Kelly's.

Another option would be to go to the discount bin and hope that someone like Austin Hedges or Jonah Heim has something left. 

[MeleMouth]

2 minutes ago, HarmonK03 said:

It was Falvey who made the final call on the signings.  Zoll was still number 2.  

What I can do is look at results, 1 playoff appearance in six years with Falvey and Zoll as the top two baseball decision makers.  It is their job to put together a sustainable winning organization and they haven't done it.

I agree with you here. However, remember when the Twins hired Falvey, they also interviewed Chaim Bloom. Memory serves that Bloom and the Pohlads did not feel there was a fit between them. What I interpreted at the time, based on comments from the Twins at the time about what they liked about Terry Ryan and what Falvey's hiring instructions were, is that Bloom wanted to make bigger changes to the organization than the Pohlads wanted, and that Falvey was more willing to meet the Pohlads' requirements to take the job.

Take that however you want, but there have been organizational restrictions for several years that have prevented general managers from doing everything they thought necessary to build a sustainable winning organization. This year was Exhibit A in the general manager doing things to meet short-term objectives of ownership that worked against building a sustainable winning organization. It's tough to blame the general manager for failing to build a sustainable organization while implementing instructions for short-term objectives. More importantly, it might not be realistic to expect anyone else to do any better at building a sustainable organization if ownership continues giving short-term requirements. 

To finish, St. Louis now hired Bloom, and he has done a great job quickly to revamp their organization, starting by biting the bullet to trade off every expensive veteran they could to get more top prospects. If you want to see something that might make you jealous, or at least match your thoughts about what the beginning of a sustainable organization looks like, look at (1) St. Louis's collection of young talent and (2) budget room for 2027. The sad coda here, at least for Twins fans, is that, even though St. Louis did this major rebuild instead of the fantasy "competitive rebuild," it also has a better record than the Twins this year.

[SE23]

14 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

That's probably the best option at a mid-tier price point, but not without risks. (1) Kelly will be 33 next year and could be trending down. (2) Kelly might more money and more years than we're comfortable with. It would be reasonable for him to want at least the same 3 x $10 million contract the Twins gave to Christian Vasquez, with a higher annual amount because it's four years later and he's frankly a more valuable player. That longer term would conflict with the mid-2028 goal, unless you're comfortable with paying perhaps $12 million/year for a back-up catcher.

Note also that Statcast claims that Caratini's expected offense is actually better than Kelly's.

Another option would be to go to the discount bin and hope that someone like Austin Hedges or Jonah Heim has something left. 

I would avoid the bargain bin myself. I'm prepared to ride with Vic & Alex J, but if the FO is feeling adventurous, I say go after Kelly. Even if a multi-year contract is necessary! 

[MeleMouth]

15 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

There's 12 pages of qualified batters who have appeared as a DH for at least 1 PA, Bell is 10th in fWAR. Can't really sort by wRC+ because there are a lot of guys that have enough qualifying PAs but have only played 1 or 2 games at DH and have a crazy wRC+ as a DH. The point is he has not been horrible as a DH, but this team didn't really need a full-time DH...

"qualifying"

How about this: among 13 hitters who had at least 300 PAs "as DH," Bell is 8th in fWAR, with 1.0 (he's 0.7 overall this year). He's also #5 out of 5 with at least 450 PAs.

8th out of 13 is not terrible, but not awesome either.

[mnfireman]

9 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

"qualifying"

How about this: among 13 hitters who had at least 300 PAs "as DH," Bell is 8th in fWAR, with 1.0 (he's 0.7 overall this year). He's also #5 out of 5 with at least 450 PAs.

8th out of 13 is not terrible, but not awesome either.

Dude, pick it apart all you want, I never stated he was a superstar. He's performed well enough to justify his contract, this team, however, DID NOT NEED a full-time DH (unless Schwarber, Ohtani, or Diaz was that DH)...

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

1 hour ago, HarmonK03 said:

If you have that many holes maybe you need to look at your approach and is why Zoll needs to be gone.  I can live with Caratini as the backup but the plan right as we know it is for him to be our primary catcher.  It was  a bad plan set in place by Falvey when he signed him and it still is.

The plan for Caratini is that at least we would have 1 experienced catcher going into 2027 for minimal cash. As to who fills the other half, as of now it appears to be Jackson, but based on the multiple moves of dfa and signing Caratini in the first place I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility they find someone they feel is better.  The bad plan was not having any other catching in the system. 

[MeleMouth]

36 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Dude, pick it apart all you want, I never stated he was a superstar. He's performed well enough to justify his contract, this team, however, DID NOT NEED a full-time DH (unless Schwarber, Ohtani, or Diaz was that DH)...

I agree Bell has justified his contract.