At what point?

[roger]

Consider the circumstances of the Bill Smith firing - they fire their GM and replace him with the guy who was GM before and had been in Smith's ear on every single move he made. Then they rehire Smith as an adviser. Even when the Twins did eventually fire someone, they did it in a half-hearted kind of way. I truly believe that on any other team Gardy would already be on the hot seat, but with the Twins, the only one who can make Gardy not the manager anymore is Gardy himself.

If you think Mr. Ryan was in Bill Smith's ear on every move, you don't know Terry Ryan. Out of respect to Bill Smith, he would only provide advice when asked and clearly stay out of the way. As for keeping Bill Smith, that was also an excellent decision. Smith has very little if anything to do with baseball operations. He is back doing things for the organization which he is very good at. Things like working with Lee County on the plans to renovate/upgrade Hammond Stadium. Those are the business type of things Smith will do a very good job at. I respect the organization for, 1) knowing Mr. Smith was the wrong choice for G.M.; 2) Bringing back an experienced G.M. who was as good as any; and 3) keeping Mr. Smith and reassigning him to something he is good at.

[powrwrap]

I'm not trying to be one of those fans that overreacts over 2 games, [..] and the fact that the wheels are starting to come off

 

Nope, not overreacting at all.

 

I like Gardy, but it almost seems like his act is starting to wear thin, and sometimes change is a good thing.

 

It's going to take something unusual for the Pohlad's to abandon Gardenhire. A rift between Mauer and Gardenhire perhaps. Or open disobedience to Gardy. Lack of hustle. These sorts of things might fall under your description of Gardy's act starting to wear thin.

 

Let's face it, this team will be lucky to win 75 games, I'm pretty sure the Pohlad's know it so they can't put the blame on Gardenhire.

[gunnarthor]

If you think Mr. Ryan was in Bill Smith's ear on every move, you don't know Terry Ryan. Out of respect to Bill Smith, he would only provide advice when asked and clearly stay out of the way. As for keeping Bill Smith, that was also an excellent decision. Smith has very little if anything to do with baseball operations. He is back doing things for the organization which he is very good at. Things like working with Lee County on the plans to renovate/upgrade Hammond Stadium. Those are the business type of things Smith will do a very good job at. I respect the organization for, 1) knowing Mr. Smith was the wrong choice for G.M.; 2) Bringing back an experienced G.M. who was as good as any; and 3) keeping Mr. Smith and reassigning him to something he is good at.

Well said, Roger.

[twinsnorth49]

Heaven forbid anyone demands some accountability around here... Keep making wise ass comments without adding anything into the thread.

What exactly have you added, except some insistent notion that changing managers is the cure to this teams ills? How about you be accountable,what would you or any other prospective manager do to make this team better?

 

Gardy has had his fair share of playoff failure but he keeps bringing the horse to water, at some point the players have to be the one's drinking. As far as this weekend went, he put three different lineups out there and none but a few executed in any way, I don't think he put them in a position to fail, they didn't play the way they are expected to play and no manager can do much about that.

[twinswon1991]

HE should be fired NOW before he runs off any more decent players like he did with Papi, Garza, Delmon, Hardy, so on and so on. He will play you only if you are NICE and are 5'2" and scrappy (Punto/Butera/Carroll).

 

After another 99+ loss season it is best to start over with new players, new coaches and a GM that knows how to evaluate players.

[VodkaDave]

HE should be fired NOW before he runs off any more decent players like he did with Papi, Garza, Delmon, Hardy, so on and so on. He will play you only if you are NICE and are 5'2" and scrappy (Punto/Butera/Carroll).

 

After another 99+ loss season it is best to start over with new players, new coaches and a GM that knows how to evaluate players.

He didn't run off Ortiz, Garza or Hardy... he has said repeadtly how he would have preferred that they would have kept Garza and Bartlett. Yeah, he obviously didn't like Delmon after the whole "I don't want to play today because its cold outside" but to be fair, Delmon was going to be DFA'ed after the season either way. The guy was just a massive dissapointment sans 2010 his whole time here.

[whydidnt]

Consider the circumstances of the Bill Smith firing - they fire their GM and replace him with the guy who was GM before and had been in Smith's ear on every single move he made. Then they rehire Smith as an adviser. Even when the Twins did eventually fire someone, they did it in a half-hearted kind of way. I truly believe that on any other team Gardy would already be on the hot seat, but with the Twins, the only one who can make Gardy not the manager anymore is Gardy himself.

I think this is a pretty accurate statement. Why fire the GM only to replace him with his top "adviser"? Francona won 2 world series, had his team in the playoffs as frequently as Gardenhire, managed in a much tougher division and got fired after his team had one bad month. Yes, managing in a huge market like Boston gives him built in advantages, but when you say on any other team he'd be on the hot seat I can't argue. I just would argue that being in the hot-seat doesn't mean you should be fired. I think it does mean that it's time for the media to stop perpetuating the notion that Gardenhire is immune to his team performing poorly and start putting him on the hot seat and forcing him to make tough, good decisions.

[John Bonnes]

I've deleted a few personal attacks already on this thread. There are a few more that I should probably go after, but there's enough out here that it's going to be easier to just start banning users. If you want to argue against someone's point, you should be able do so without "fans like you" or "you don't do this" or "you don't do that." If you see posts like this report them, don't reply in kind. Thanks.

[peterb18]

This problem is deeper than Gardy. He is just part of a whole organization that needs revamping. It goes to philosophy -- the front office--the Pohlads with an unwillingness to step up to the plate and sign quality free agents. When the strength of your farm system is in the lower minors-you then do like the Cardinals and sign what your team needs to contend.

I listened to the baseball network on XM yesterday and a guy from Iowa called in asked about the Twins. Casey Stern said that the Twins are an organization that he can't understand. He said that most organizations when they almost get to the top try to add pieces to go to the next level. But, the Twins have taken the other approach and are dismantling the team. You would have to assume that the Pohalds have told Ryan to cut payroll. Again, this organization needs a transformation in philospphy!

[gunnarthor]

This problem is deeper than Gardy. He is just part of a whole organization that needs revamping. It goes to philosophy -- the front office--the Pohlads with an unwillingness to step up to the plate and sign quality free agents. When the strength of your farm system is in the lower minors-you then do like the Cardinals and sign what your team needs to contend.

I listened to the baseball network on XM yesterday and a guy from Iowa called in asked about the Twins. Casey Stern said that the Twins are an organization that he can't understand. He said that most organizations when they almost get to the top try to add pieces to go to the next level. But, the Twins have taken the other approach and are dismantling the team. You would have to assume that the Pohalds have told Ryan to cut payroll. Again, this organization needs a transformation in philospphy!

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Back in the small market days, the Twins did let talent walk out and didn't add much payroll when it seemed they were close and that annoyed a lot of people. But the last few years payroll wasn't really the problem - we took on salary and made some nice free agent signings that helped immensely in 2010. Now that we're back to rebuilding mode, signing big free agents doesn't make sense.

[TwinsFanLV]

The Twins have a lack of talent. That isn't Gardy's fault. Half of our team belongs in Rochester. If we have success this season, it will be because of team chemistry and great coaching, which I think Gardy can provide.

 

Agree that the 2011 and 2012 Twins are not talented, but what about the 2006 Twins team, which had a Cy Young Winner, a batting title and an MVP, but failed to win a playoff game? Gardenhire does NOT get the most from his players. Try somebody else.

[Montecore]

I don't trust that the ownership has any clue as to how to go about doing the right thing. I basically agree with you, I just don't think it will help. And you should have written this Friday morning, because declaring the sky is falling after three losses is both easy and non-credible. Again, not that I disagree with you.

Did express these sentiments before Friday. Hollering about jettisoning him to Pluto last year on some other blog. And, the year before that. Ownership is just alienating the fan base by keeping him on.

[gunnarthor]

Agree that the 2011 and 2012 Twins are not talented, but what about the 2006 Twins team, which had a Cy Young Winner, a batting title and an MVP, but failed to win a playoff game? Gardenhire does NOT get the most from his players. Try somebody else.

Using a 3 game sample isn't particularly fair. Santana pitched well in game 1, Morneau was good all series, Mauer struggled. I think it's more indicative of the manager's skill that he took a team that had lost Liriano and was 10.5 back on Aug 7 and won the central on the last day of the season.

 

I think if you want to make claims like "he does NOT get the most from his players" you should be able to point out players that have left the Twins and gotten better (and you should also, if that's how you're judging this, note the players that have come here and become better players). And, of course, you'd have to compare that with how a normal manager does in that, as well.

[peterb18]

Gunnarthor--The point is: The Twins are not a small market team. They are a team that doesn't have to go through the rebuilding mode the way they did in the past. They are in a financial position to acquire quality free agents. Also, they could have kept Kubel, Cuddyer, and Nathan-signed a few pitchers and then wait until the young guys are ready. I don't know if you listen to baseball on XM with Kevin Kennedy, Casey Stern, Jim Douquette(sp) plus other baseball analyists? But, most independent experts predict another season like last year. In other words, the rebuilding could be done in another way without a complete dismantling of the team. The results will show at the gate by the middle of the season.

[spideyo]

Are these the same analysts that picked them to win the division last year?

[luckylager]

[video=youtube;6TDqvD34hEA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TDqvD34hEA

 

We're only three games in, fellas. Cheer up. Send positive energy to the Twin's bats.

[Gernzy]

The Twins are normally pretty generous when it comes to their managers. TK stayed thoughout the entire 90's cellar run. I don't see this year as make or break for Gardy. If this continues though, then who knows.

[VodkaDave]

Gunnarthor--The point is: The Twins are not a small market team. They are a team that doesn't have to go through the rebuilding mode the way they did in the past. They are in a financial position to acquire quality free agents. Also, they could have kept Kubel, Cuddyer, and Nathan-signed a few pitchers and then wait until the young guys are ready. I don't know if you listen to baseball on XM with Kevin Kennedy, Casey Stern, Jim Douquette(sp) plus other baseball analyists? But, most independent experts predict another season like last year. In other words, the rebuilding could be done in another way without a complete dismantling of the team. The results will show at the gate by the middle of the season.

They could not have kept Kubel, Cuddyer and Nathan, payroll had to come down...

[sotafan]

I truly hope that is the case. We need new blood and brains in this club. We need people that take risks and know how to build a winner.

[gunnarthor]

Gunnarthor--The point is: The Twins are not a small market team. They are a team that doesn't have to go through the rebuilding mode the way they did in the past. They are in a financial position to acquire quality free agents. Also, they could have kept Kubel, Cuddyer, and Nathan-signed a few pitchers and then wait until the young guys are ready. I don't know if you listen to baseball on XM with Kevin Kennedy, Casey Stern, Jim Douquette(sp) plus other baseball analyists? But, most independent experts predict another season like last year. In other words, the rebuilding could be done in another way without a complete dismantling of the team. The results will show at the gate by the middle of the season.

I agree we aren't a small market team anymore and I think the team was set up this year so that they could add salary if Morneau/Mauer were both healthy. But I don't think they were in a position to pay 15/yr or more for the quality free agents - Wilson, Pujols, Yu, Fielder, etc. They added a Cuddy-like hitter in Willingham (I think a slightly inferior one but others think superior). I don't think there was much they could do in free agency to help this team much. But I do agree with any general sentiment that the Pohlad's could have let us have a higher payroll. I think that's why Smith was fired, he wanted a payroll around 113 again. But that's just my assumption.

[whydidnt]

They could not have kept Kubel, Cuddyer and Nathan, payroll had to come down...

Why did Payoll have to come down? There was no logical reason to reduce payroll. Revenue was up to 230 million last year and we still haven't heard what they were adding from the new local TV contract. Team has historically spent 50+% of revenue on payroll. This year they decide to spend significantly less, and you think this had to be? Seems to me the owners were setting the team up to fail.

[Guest USAFChief]

I am generally a Gardy fan and I don't think most of this would change much, if at all, with a new manager. That said, at some point you almost HAVE to try something different, no?

 

I think the blame for the Twins current situation falls largely on Bill Smith, partly on ownership, and partly on bad luck. Smith was beyond horrible as a GM, draining talent from this organization through one horrible decision after another. Ownership seems to me to value guaranteed yearly profits above all else. And in truth, they've been unlucky with health for a couple years now.

[StormJH1]

48 hours ago I would have thought that Gardy was safe for as long as he wanted. But now I'm wondering. It's a nebulous answer, but it depends how the team looks as much as the results. If they look ugly, you never know. Things could go south much faster than I would have thought.

If this on-pace for a 100-loss season, as hard as it is to believe, I'd have to agree with John. And the irony of it is that there's nothing Gardy can really do, is there? Gardy has plenty of faults, and I'm sure we'll point them out real-time all year. But this roster is severely deficient in many ways, especially pitching, and we all knew it coming into the year. Gardy's in a situation where there are guys he's going to have to keep penciling in and just hope for the best. Mauer's a guy like that, obviously, but even when Mauer is "bad", he usually can perform at a better than average level for a catcher. Pavano scares the hell out of me, and I shudder to think of what value we could have gotten for Liriano after 2010, because that guy is never going be consistent enough to be a front-line starter.

 

The odds are certainly against a mid-season firing, but this will be one ugly summer if we're well below .500 by mid-August again. It could happen. The Twins definitely need a culture change, but a lot of the nitpicky things I don't like about Gardenhire and the core of this team aren't significant enough to explain performance THIS bad.

[StormJH1]

Why did Payoll have to come down? There was no logical reason to reduce payroll. Revenue was up to 230 million last year and we still haven't heard what they were adding from the new local TV contract. Team has historically spent 50+% of revenue on payroll. This year they decide to spend significantly less, and you think this had to be? Seems to me the owners were setting the team up to fail.

While you are right from a business standpoint that payroll could have been increased, the problem isn't that we "only" have $100 million to work with...it's the composition of the roster. That Mauer and Morneau's struggles have eaten up a big chunk of that is well documented. But the real problem is the farm system, or lack thereof. Sano, Arcia, and a few others give hope for the future, but literally nothing of significant long-term value has come up since Liriano. And when team after team succeeds in the playoffs with a budgets very close to what the Twins now have, it's often because their overall salary budget is being deflated by young players who haven't gotten paid yet.

 

You CAN succeed with Mauer and Morneau making all that money, even if Mauer and Morneau are missing time with injury, but it would need to be supplemented with cheap young talent performing at a Joey Votto or Matt Cain level BEFORE those guys have put in enough time to warrant a long-term deal.

 

Simply put, the Twins felt that they had a superior philosophy and enough core players that they could draft "safe" year after year, and they were wrong. Now, our entire rotation has virtually zero power arms, and the only guys that move through the ranks are average prospects like Valencia, or guys with extremely limited ceilings, such as Revere. (Note: Span was nearly an exception to this rule, but he was actually drafted way back in '02 and withheld until he was "over-ripe"...plus his performance/injury problems the past few years question whether he will actually be an above-average player going forward)

 

My point is, I don't think that another 10 - 15 million on top of what we already have makes this a SIGNIFICANTLY better team if that money is just spent through free agency. Yes, a Puljos or Fielder signing would have made an impact, but that was never going to happen for a number of reasons, and those guys cost $20 million + per year. They could have pursued a Cliff Lee or C.J. Wilson (and yes, I really wish we had something resembling an "ace"), but what about the other four starts? And the anemic defense and hitting? I think management saw the writing on the wall, knew that they couldn't "spend their way to .500" this season, and recognized that luck and good health with several key players were going to make a bigger difference this year than anyone they could have reasonably tried to acquire.

[Curt]

Does Gardenhire go on the proverbial hot seat?

 

When those above him are being held accountable and need a scapegoat. It is the way of the world.

[Yoshii]

people are so mad today.

[roger]

Why did Payoll have to come down? There was no logical reason to reduce payroll. Revenue was up to 230 million last year and we still haven't heard what they were adding from the new local TV contract. Team has historically spent 50+% of revenue on payroll. This year they decide to spend significantly less, and you think this had to be? Seems to me the owners were setting the team up to fail.

Two major differences this year. One, they no longer receive revenue sharing from the rest of the league. I don't know the exact numbers, but I believe it was in the $10-$15mm range. Two, they will be paying about $6mm more to sign draft picks. That is a reduction of net revenue greater than the $15mm reduction in opening day payrolls.

[whydidnt]

My point is, I don't think that another 10 - 15 million on top of what we already have makes this a SIGNIFICANTLY better team if that money is just spent through free agency. Yes, a Puljos or Fielder signing would have made an impact, but that was never going to happen for a number of reasons, and those guys cost $20 million + per year. They could have pursued a Cliff Lee or C.J. Wilson (and yes, I really wish we had something resembling an "ace"), but what about the other four starts? And the anemic defense and hitting? I think management saw the writing on the wall, knew that they couldn't "spend their way to .500" this season, and recognized that luck and good health with several key players were going to make a bigger difference this year than anyone they could have reasonably tried to acquire.

I agree with the core of what you're saying, but I think if you look at the moves made last off season, if you have another 15 million to spend you can significantly improve the team. Don't forget the team spend another 10.75 million on Marquis, Carroll and Capps, plus another 1-2 million for the bums in our pen, meaning you would have had about 27 million to work with in the offseason. Instead of signing Marquis for 3 Million, you sign E.Jackson for 11 (+8), instead of Carroll for 3 Million, you sign Scutaro for 6 (+11), I'd go with Cordero over Capps and save 250k, that would leave me 5-6 (the guys they brought in like Burton, Gray, etc. cost something too) million to spend on the bullpen, for that I could have signed Coffey, Saito, Qualls and Rodney. Not saying all these guys would have signed here, or that you would have even wanted all of them, but the point is, we would have a legitimate SP, a decent offensive option at short and a bullpen that we could have some confidence in. The team would certainly be in a better position to compete for the AL central. Don't forget Fielder wasn't signed until late in the offseason, so if you're running the Twins, you don't see the Tigers as being that much better in your division.

 

It was a bad, short-sighted move to cut payroll this year.

[Highabove]

This years Bullpen tells the story. The Twins were not willing to spend even a million dollars too upgrade the leagues worst Bullpen. Winning does take a back Seat to the Pohlad's profit.

[MileHighTwinsFan]

I agree that internally the team's expectations are realistic and that the real goal is to prepare for the future, while doing their best to compete and put a good product on the field. If the team had spent $110 million again with the expectation that they could make a run at the Tigers, it might be a different story - but that is clearly not the case. The bigger question is whether Gardy wants to be the manager of a team that is rebuilding. If it is clear that the team is out of contention by July and the decision is made to sell off veterans and go with a youth movement, then Gardy will need to ask himself whether that is something he wants to be a part of.