2025 Vikings Season

[gunnarthor]

51 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

There is no point in having a draft discussion with you.  You counted Ed Ingram (traded for pennies and benched repeatedly) and Meckhi Blackmon (Cut) as draft "hits".  You're just existing, by choice, on another planet from objective reality.  We have gotten frighteningly little production on the 2025 Vikings from draft assets.  If KAM made those picks, he is responsible for that failure.  If he didn't (which I guess you're suggesting?) - then fire him for not being helpful in any meaningful way.

Those of us who live in the real world, who aren't flat-earthing our way to an opinion, see the draft results for what they are.  KAM is the head of that department.  The dismal failure of it is on him.

The team had a soft identity last year too.  They have consistently under KOC.  As good as the defense was, it was turnover dependent which is not a super translatable skill.  (As demonstrated this year.  And as the Bears will surely feel next year)  They don't do anything well.  They don't have a ferocious pass rush like Denver or Seattle.  (w/o blitzing)  They don't have a lockdown secondary.  They don't have a rough and tumble OL.  I'm not sure what you'd call our running back room, it has the most muddled identity of all the position groups.

I know what the Rams do well.  I know what the Lions do well.  I know those teams and their identities.  The Vikings can win all the games they want, I won't see a contender until I see an identity.  

Lastly - WTF?  "None of these are tear it down rebuilds" and then you proceed to name three teams that were hot garbage and rebuilt around a young QB.  The hell do you think a tear it down rebuild is?  Washington has a hurt QB.  Indy is playing well.  Is it sustainable?  No, probably not.  Was it five years of sucking?  Also no.  

The NFL absolutely has tear it down rebuilds.  That's how the Bengals got Burrow.  It's how the Bills got Allen.  The Patriots shredded their roster and picked in the top of the draft multiple years while trying to find the guy.  

Does it take some teams longer than 5 years?  Sure.  And it will if we keep letting Kwesi "I crush it with Ed Ingram talents" Adolfo Mensah keep running drafts.  But under a GM that can actually hit on their picks?  That turnaround can happen a lot faster than in most major sports.

Again, you're just not right. KAM doesn't do the drafting, he doesn't have the scouting background. He listens to his coaches. This isn't Zimmer fighting with Speilman, which I think is a good thing. We know that KAM signed Rodgers and AVG specifically because Flores wanted them, Flores wanted Turner so KAM made a call to get him. We know that he traded for Theilan because KOC wanted him. We know he drafted Felton because McCardell wanted him, etc. He doesn't make the draft decisions in a vacuum. He listens to what his coaches want. As to the results, you've chosen to ignore the reality of draft success rates, called Turner a bust, and are now complaining that the 2025 draft isn't doing enough. Again, not sure what you expected, you don't want to live in reality. Jackson has started every game he's been healthy for. TID is playing about 30% of the defensive snaps, which seems good for a raw 5th rounder. As for Felton, his production seems more or less in line with what the Vikings envisioned - " ‘Hey, man, you got me thinking now. If I get a chance, I’m going to fight to get you.’ He can play special teams and do a lot of things to help us as a team, first, and then as a receiver. I think he’s going to be a good Viking for a long time.”" They knew he'd be able to do stuff on ST and being a receiver would come along. Sounds like the coaches had a good understanding. You might disagree with it but that seems logical.

You also didn't answer the basic question - how do you know the drafting is the problem and not the development? 

As to identity, the issue is your perception. A team doesn't accidentally win at a .600+ clip for four years without being good. You think they're soft, whatever. A month ago Lions fans were bitching that the Vikings punched them in the mouth. 

Lastly, the "tear downs" you are referencing weren't planned in some great degree. It was "we're bad until we draft a QBOTF." The Bengals didn't decide to trade players for picks, they actually traded back to help the Bills get Allen. And the Bills didn't tank to get Allen. They just wanted him, moved up and got him. Smart decision but again no tear down. (I'd also be quite happy if the Vikings targeted a QB and traded up to get him, which, of course, they did).

[TheLeviathan]

26 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Again, you're just not right. KAM doesn't do the drafting, he doesn't have the scouting background. He listens to his coaches. This isn't Zimmer fighting with Speilman, which I think is a good thing. We know that KAM signed Rodgers and AVG specifically because Flores wanted them, Flores wanted Turner so KAM made a call to get him. We know that he traded for Theilan because KOC wanted him. We know he drafted Felton because McCardell wanted him, etc. He doesn't make the draft decisions in a vacuum. He listens to what his coaches want. As to the results, you've chosen to ignore the reality of draft success rates, called Turner a bust, and are now complaining that the 2025 draft isn't doing enough. Again, not sure what you expected, you don't want to live in reality. Jackson has started every game he's been healthy for. TID is playing about 30% of the defensive snaps, which seems good for a raw 5th rounder. As for Felton, his production seems more or less in line with what the Vikings envisioned - " ‘Hey, man, you got me thinking now. If I get a chance, I’m going to fight to get you.’ He can play special teams and do a lot of things to help us as a team, first, and then as a receiver. I think he’s going to be a good Viking for a long time.”" They knew he'd be able to do stuff on ST and being a receiver would come along. Sounds like the coaches had a good understanding. You might disagree with it but that seems logical.

You also didn't answer the basic question - how do you know the drafting is the problem and not the development? 

As to identity, the issue is your perception. A team doesn't accidentally win at a .600+ clip for four years without being good. You think they're soft, whatever. A month ago Lions fans were bitching that the Vikings punched them in the mouth. 

Lastly, the "tear downs" you are referencing weren't planned in some great degree. It was "we're bad until we draft a QBOTF." The Bengals didn't decide to trade players for picks, they actually traded back to help the Bills get Allen. And the Bills didn't tank to get Allen. They just wanted him, moved up and got him. Smart decision but again no tear down. (I'd also be quite happy if the Vikings targeted a QB and traded up to get him, which, of course, they did).

If KAM is nothing but a yes man for his coaches....fire him and replace him with a GM who can actually draft.  If his coaches are the problem he should fire them.  And then he can be fired for greenlighting their hire.

Also....read again: I said that the 2025 roster is getting almost nothing out of assets acquired via picks.  That includes traded assets.  This is is a round earth claim.  It is 100% undeniable by anyone living in reality.

Super happy that Turner looks to be finding his game.  That's baked into the claim above.  A near total lack of draft success for 4 years has suffocated the team.

I didn't say they were never good.  They had moments, but in both good regular seasons they got embarrassingly exposed in the playoffs.  That happens when you have no identity.

You have a lot easier time drafting or trading up for a franchise QB picking 5th instead of 20th.  That's the whole point!  And once you endure the short term pain to get the guy....you get a glorious run to enjoy.

[Parfigliano]

4 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

This seems to come up every few years, and this is the problem statement because the owners, or whomever making this call thinks that ONE season should be THIS season. It doesn't work that way.  The reset doesn't start when you have an old aging roster, it happens after you purge them. 

And I agree, not with this GM. Can't waste year after year of draft picks.

Can waste.  Already did waste years of draft picks.  

[Mike Sixel]

I'm hard pressed to be impressed with Tai Felton as an actual contributor at this point. 

[Vanimal46]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

KAM doesn't do the drafting,

You haven’t watched a single draft war room video ever I see. 

[Aggies7]

It seems kind of crazy to hire a guy as general manager if he’s got no scouting background. Or is that the new smarter than everyone else way some teams operate?

[Aggies7]

Jackson dart has no idea how to protect himself from taking big hits.

[Aggies7]

Is this real 

 

[Vanimal46]

16 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Jackson dart has no idea how to protect himself from taking big hits.

He’s not gonna make it 5 years in the NFL at this rate 

[gunnarthor]

39 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It seems kind of crazy to hire a guy as general manager if he’s got no scouting background. Or is that the new smarter than everyone else way some teams operate?

Yeah, pretty much. https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/new-vp-of-football-ops-kwesi-adofo-mensah-knows-what-it-takes-to-win-ready-to-wo

[gunnarthor]

3 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

If KAM is nothing but a yes man for his coaches....fire him and replace him with a GM who can actually draft.  If his coaches are the problem he should fire them.  And then he can be fired for greenlighting their hire.

Also....read again: I said that the 2025 roster is getting almost nothing out of assets acquired via picks.  That includes traded assets.  This is is a round earth claim.  It is 100% undeniable by anyone living in reality.

Super happy that Turner looks to be finding his game.  That's baked into the claim above.  A near total lack of draft success for 4 years has suffocated the team.

I didn't say they were never good.  They had moments, but in both good regular seasons they got embarrassingly exposed in the playoffs.  That happens when you have no identity.

You have a lot easier time drafting or trading up for a franchise QB picking 5th instead of 20th.  That's the whole point!  And once you endure the short term pain to get the guy....you get a glorious run to enjoy.

They lost in the playoffs because they couldn't adjust to pressure up the middle and the refs called a fumble a forward pass. It had nothing to do with "identity." And your logic doesn't work - we lost because we don't have an identity but you picked the Lions as a team with an identity that also got bounced in the playoffs and would currently miss the playoffs this year. Guess they don't have an identity. 

As to KAM, I think it's a good thing that the GM and coaches are in sync. We saw Speilman give Zimmer a QB he didn't want and how that relationship blew apart. We don't want that. I suspect that was a big part of the hiring process - to find a GM who would work well with his coaches (that he'd hire). The idea that the GM has to be a blue blood football guy is getting dated. KAM was hired to run a billion dollar enterprise, supervise hundreds of staff, and push the owners agenda forward.

I do agree that picking 5th instead of 20th makes it easier to draft a franchise QB. And if by tear down you mean tank, sure. You're more likely to draft 5th. But tanking doesn't really work. Any given Sunday and all. You just end up alienating your players and fan base for the hope that this time it'll work. And that hope is being engineered by guys who can't win in the NFL. I'd rather the idiot savants we have keep getting chances, rather than attempting to tank.

[Mike Sixel]

50 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

They lost in the playoffs because they couldn't adjust to pressure up the middle and the refs called a fumble a forward pass. It had nothing to do with "identity." And your logic doesn't work - we lost because we don't have an identity but you picked the Lions as a team with an identity that also got bounced in the playoffs and would currently miss the playoffs this year. Guess they don't have an identity. 

As to KAM, I think it's a good thing that the GM and coaches are in sync. We saw Speilman give Zimmer a QB he didn't want and how that relationship blew apart. We don't want that. I suspect that was a big part of the hiring process - to find a GM who would work well with his coaches (that he'd hire). The idea that the GM has to be a blue blood football guy is getting dated. KAM was hired to run a billion dollar enterprise, supervise hundreds of staff, and push the owners agenda forward.

I do agree that picking 5th instead of 20th makes it easier to draft a franchise QB. And if by tear down you mean tank, sure. You're more likely to draft 5th. But tanking doesn't really work. Any given Sunday and all. You just end up alienating your players and fan base for the hope that this time it'll work. And that hope is being engineered by guys who can't win in the NFL. I'd rather the idiot savants we have keep getting chances, rather than attempting to tank.

Those useless wins were the difference between McCarthy and Maye....

[TheLeviathan]

9 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

They lost in the playoffs because they couldn't adjust to pressure up the middle and the refs called a fumble a forward pass. It had nothing to do with "identity." And your logic doesn't work - we lost because we don't have an identity but you picked the Lions as a team with an identity that also got bounced in the playoffs and would currently miss the playoffs this year. Guess they don't have an identity. 

As to KAM, I think it's a good thing that the GM and coaches are in sync. We saw Speilman give Zimmer a QB he didn't want and how that relationship blew apart. We don't want that. I suspect that was a big part of the hiring process - to find a GM who would work well with his coaches (that he'd hire). The idea that the GM has to be a blue blood football guy is getting dated. KAM was hired to run a billion dollar enterprise, supervise hundreds of staff, and push the owners agenda forward.

I do agree that picking 5th instead of 20th makes it easier to draft a franchise QB. And if by tear down you mean tank, sure. You're more likely to draft 5th. But tanking doesn't really work. Any given Sunday and all. You just end up alienating your players and fan base for the hope that this time it'll work. And that hope is being engineered by guys who can't win in the NFL. I'd rather the idiot savants we have keep getting chances, rather than attempting to tank.

Everybody but one gets bounced from the playoffs.  It isn't just that they lost in those "good" years. It was the embarrassingly stark, humiliating manner in which both of those "good" teams went down.  They lost to the Giants at home.  The Rams dogwalked them for four quarters.  It exposed a lot of those wins as flukey/lucky.  Teams with an identity don't win on good fortune.  It's why, IMO, the team keeps bouncing from good to bad in an even/odd year yo-yo.  Teams with identity have consistency.

Of course I mean tear down if I'm talking about years of pain.  We keep trying to have these only mildly painful years thanks to ownership and because of that we never truly have a shot to recover and get well.  We're just limping along every year.

As for the rest...you keep moving the goalposts.  I point out that the 2025 Vikings are getting nothing out of their draft assets - you blame the coaches and who they want to draft as the fault.  I say "cool, that relationship is too cozy.  Fire them and be your own GM"  You pivot and credit the great relationship that they have as they march towards a miserable 5 win season with one of the league's oldest and most expensive rosters.  You're just trying to find excuses.

This front office royally screwed up so many times in it's tenure it can only be described as idiocy without any of the savant.  KAM said he'd never go "full Rams", throwing shade at that organization.  Gee.....can we go full Rams?

You know....deal our pick last year for a 2nd and a 2026 1st and have the Falcons pick this year?  You know....the team that had no 1st round picks in 2022 and 20223 and managed to BADLY out draft us with Kyrien Williams, Puka Nucua, Byron Young, Steve Avila,  and Warren McClendon?  I could go on about the way they've drafted and developed, made shrewd moves, and built a team that contended over two different windows.....but hey...let's throw shade at them while we faceplanting our way to a terrible season, with an old roster, and a maxed out salary cap.

Idiot savant indeed.

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Everybody but one gets bounced from the playoffs.  It isn't just that they lost in those "good" years. It was the embarrassingly stark, humiliating manner in which both of those "good" teams went down.  They lost to the Giants at home.  The Rams dogwalked them for four quarters.  It exposed a lot of those wins as flukey/lucky.  Teams with an identity don't win on good fortune.  It's why, IMO, the team keeps bouncing from good to bad in an even/odd year yo-yo.  Teams with identity have consistency.

Of course I mean tear down if I'm talking about years of pain.  We keep trying to have these only mildly painful years thanks to ownership and because of that we never truly have a shot to recover and get well.  We're just limping along every year.

As for the rest...you keep moving the goalposts.  I point out that the 2025 Vikings are getting nothing out of their draft assets - you blame the coaches and who they want to draft as the fault.  I say "cool, that relationship is too cozy.  Fire them and be your own GM"  You pivot and credit the great relationship that they have as they march towards a miserable 5 win season with one of the league's oldest and most expensive rosters.  You're just trying to find excuses.

This front office royally screwed up so many times in it's tenure it can only be described as idiocy without any of the savant.  KAM said he'd never go "full Rams", throwing shade at that organization.  Gee.....can we go full Rams?

You know....deal our pick last year for a 2nd and a 2026 1st and have the Falcons pick this year?  You know....the team that had no 1st round picks in 2022 and 20223 and managed to BADLY out draft us with Kyrien Williams, Puka Nucua, Byron Young, Steve Avila,  and Warren McClendon?  I could go on about the way they've drafted and developed, made shrewd moves, and built a team that contended over two different windows.....but hey...let's throw shade at them while we faceplanting our way to a terrible season, with an old roster, and a maxed out salary cap.

Idiot savant indeed.

? 

You're the one that keeps moving the goalposts. You said we lost because we don't have an identity and then forgave the Lions for doing the exact same thing. I understand you want to accuse the Vikings of being unique losers but have to ignore their winning percentage to do it however, it's getting old. The Vikings aren't cursed. They aren't losing because of "identity." They lost to the Giants b/c Donatell's defense couldn't get them off the field. They lost to the Rams b/c they couldn't adjust to pressure up the middle.

As for your losing/tear down/tanking plan - it doesn't work. If it did the Lions wouldn't have sucked for 20 years. Suck until you get a franchise QB isn't a plan. Smart teams - Eagles, Bills, KC, Baltimore - can get a franchise QB without tanking. Plus, sucking on purpose is a great way for coaches, players, and GMs to lose their jobs. 

As for your attacks on KAM, whatever. You're just not rational on him for reasons. He's already shown he can put together good teams. Spielman was our GM for 15 years. He was 9 games over .500 in those seasons. He made the playoffs six times, winning three games. He fought with the coaches he hired, constructed rosters against his coaches wishes. I'm glad we've moved on to a smarter FO.

[gunnarthor]

10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Those useless wins were the difference between McCarthy and Maye....

To get Maye, the Vikings would have had to lose 4 more games that year (because of tie-breakers). Even with Dobbs, Hall, and Mullens starting over half the games, we were only -18 in point diff. NE was something like -130. We were a good team who lost its QB. And they only won 3 games after Cousins went down.

[TheLeviathan]

4 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

? 

You're the one that keeps moving the goalposts. You said we lost because we don't have an identity and then forgave the Lions for doing the exact same thing. I understand you want to accuse the Vikings of being unique losers but have to ignore their winning percentage to do it however, it's getting old. The Vikings aren't cursed. They aren't losing because of "identity." They lost to the Giants b/c Donatell's defense couldn't get them off the field. They lost to the Rams b/c they couldn't adjust to pressure up the middle.

As for your losing/tear down/tanking plan - it doesn't work. If it did the Lions wouldn't have sucked for 20 years. Suck until you get a franchise QB isn't a plan. Smart teams - Eagles, Bills, KC, Baltimore - can get a franchise QB without tanking. Plus, sucking on purpose is a great way for coaches, players, and GMs to lose their jobs. 

As for your attacks on KAM, whatever. You're just not rational on him for reasons. He's already shown he can put together good teams. Spielman was our GM for 15 years. He was 9 games over .500 in those seasons. He made the playoffs six times, winning three games. He fought with the coaches he hired, constructed rosters against his coaches wishes. I'm glad we've moved on to a smarter FO.

1) Lots of teams that lose lack identity.  I think a problem the 49ers have had recently is that they lost their identity.  The Chiefs are struggling through it.  The Eagles have lost theirs this year.  The Cowboys don't have one.  The Dolphins lost theirs.  The Chargers are struggling to find one.  It isn't just the Vikings.  Sometimes, you have a good identity but just can't get over the hump.  That's the case for the Bills, Ravens, and Lions right now.  

However, the Vikings will always find the next Donatell, pressure excuse because they bend to the whim of their opponent.  So...no.  I haven't moved any goalposts.  I just keep having to chase strawmen and then you incorrectly try to extend my argument to say something I never did.  The Vikings have no identity.  As long as that remains the case they will be guaranteed to exist in this purgatory.

2) Yes....sometimes tanking goes really poorly.  Often even.  If you have bad drafting and bad coaching, it can be a slog.  But my point then, as it is now, is that it doesn't have to be.  When you do it well and make the right decisions on leadership - no sport turns a loser into a winner faster than the NFL.  And those examples you gave?  The Eagles had a 4 win season and traded their QB.  The Bills tanked multiple times before they got Allen.  Chiefs and Ravens are the two best organizations in football.  They didn't tank but they made bold moves at QB to be where they are.  The Bengals?  Tanked.  Rams?  Dealt all their picks and their QB.  Patriots?  Tanked.  Jags?  Tanked.  Colts?  Tanked (and then course corrected with their loaded tank roster to another QB).  Broncos?  Tanked.  Chargers?  Tanked.  Commanders?  Tanked.  Bears?  Tanked?  Packers have semi-tanked just not taken a QB.  Lions tanked their way to some of the core pieces around Goff.  49ers tanked.  Nearly every contender and/or team with a good QB situation tanked their way to it.

Seems to me that you are holding on to the exceptions (Ravens, Chiefs, and maybe Steelers?) that prove the rule and deluding yourself into thinking you figured out the rule.  

3) I don't understand why you insist on praising the Vikings drafts.  I'm sorry, but you're standing on a flat earth opinion and you're so wound up in it you just can't see reason.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to discuss something that literally every other person here (and everywhere else except maybe KAM's blood relatives) disagrees with.  Have your opinion, but I don't see why you keep wanting to debate something so utterly incorrect.

[gunnarthor]

17 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

The Bengals?  Tanked.  Rams?  Dealt all their picks and their QB.  Patriots?  Tanked.  Jags?  Tanked.  Colts?  Tanked (and then course corrected with their loaded tank roster to another QB).  Broncos?  Tanked.  Chargers?  Tanked.  Commanders?  Tanked.  Bears?  Tanked?  Packers have semi-tanked just not taken a QB.  Lions tanked their way to some of the core pieces around Goff.  49ers tanked.  Nearly every contender and/or team with a good QB situation tanked their way to it.

Lot of revisionist history happening here. So, let's go through those that you singled out as successful tanks.

Bengals - didn't tank. Sucked for five years, eventually got Burrow. Made playoffs twice in six years since acquiring franchise QB.
Rams - I mean, kinda? Like, they went through the hell of the Fisher, Fassel, Spagnuolo, Haslett, Linehan years of 10 straight losing seasons. Missing on Bradford (so did we!), eventually getting Goff. But then they made a really smart trade to add Stafford and have had one losing season in the last nine. Like, it's a successful tank so long as you ignore the decade of futility. Which you're doing. 
Patriots - Again, not really. They failed with Mac Jones first but ignoring that, they had two losing seasons and got Maye. They didn't try to lose on purpose. Belichick had the game pass him by. That's not tanking, that's sucking and lucking into Maye.
Jags - I'll give you that one. Jags sucked but then they sucked to end all sucking to get Lawrence. Assuming they make the playoffs this year, they will have made the playoffs twice in his five seasons.
Colts - Not sure how this fits your theory. I guess they traded Wentz and went with Ryan and got Richardson but the big tank move was him sucking so much that the roster kept getting high picks so Daniel Jones could ride in and save them? Great plan.
Denver - doesn't really fit this narrative at all. They sucked for six straight years but improved b/c they got a great head coach - Payton, whom I hate - nearly made the playoffs and then drafted Nix, as the 6th QB in a loaded QB draft.
Chargers - they didn't tank. They were a playoff team, had a snake bit year where they won 5 games and landed Herbert. 
Washington - Again, not a tank plan, they just bottomed out with a ****** coach and GM, both fired, and the new guys drafted Daniels. And, a year later, they have a worse record then the Vikings (for now).
Bears - the team that constantly picked QBs, fired their coach, fired their GM, picked a new QB, fired their coach, fired the GM, repeat again is the team with a plan? No, they sucked, they didn't have a plan. Constantly hoped that firing people would make them better. No plan. Bad team for long time.
Lions - sucked forever. Had the #1 pick eons ago and used it on Stafford. Continued to suck so bad that Stafford just now has a career record over .500. Traded him to the Rams for Goff, continued to suck a bit more with Goff but have now made the playoffs twice in five years with Goff. (Also, if Goff is a franchise QB, why wasn't Cousins?)
SF - Tanked their way to a 7th rounder. 

Where you and I differ is that you seem to think losing is a strategy. It's not. Bad teams will eventually get better because that's the wonderful, cyclical nature of the NFL (except for the Jets). But it's not because those teams had some grand strategy to tank until they get Cam Ward or Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold.

As to the draft pot-shots, I know you constantly draft future HOFers in the second round on Madden but the draft is far less helpful in real life. I shared a few articles on draft success rate based on rounds and positions to show the Vikings' results weren't atypical. You wanted to ignore it. I asked how you know the problem is drafting rather than coaching, you just kept blaming the GM for whatever reason.

[Vanimal46]

Thielen and Rodgers. Name a more iconic duo

[Cap'n Piranha]

6 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Thielen and Rodgers. Name a more iconic duo

Abbott and Costello.

[gunnarthor]

8 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Thielen and Rodgers. Name a more iconic duo

I honestly didn't think he'd get signed anywhere. 

[Aggies7]

17 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Thielen and Rodgers. Name a more iconic duo

Thought he wanted a chance at a ring ?

[Cap'n Piranha]

6 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

To get Maye, the Vikings would have had to lose 4 more games that year (because of tie-breakers). Even with Dobbs, Hall, and Mullens starting over half the games, we were only -18 in point diff. NE was something like -130. We were a good team who lost its QB. And they only won 3 games after Cousins went down.

Per usual, you don't know what you're talking about.  If the Vikings lost all 3 non-Cousins games in 2023 (NO, ATL, LVR), they finish 4-13, tied for the second worst record in the league with WAS, NE, and ARI.  The first tiebreaker for draft order is SOS, with the team having the worst SOS getting the higher pick.  Even when updating for the additional wins for Vikings opponents (and therefore, a stronger SOS for the Vikings), the Commanders retain pick 2, the Vikings jump to 3, NE drops to 4, and ARI lands at 5.  The Vikings inability to properly tank in 2023 cost them 8 spots of draft position in one of (potentially) the best QB drafts in history, and a guy who looks like a 15 year NFL starter.  When you also consider that with pick #3 the Vikings don't need to try and accumulate assets for additional #1 picks for trades that never happen, and the roster might have way more depth than it currently does.  I said it then, I'll say it now; the Vikings winning those 3 completely meaningless games in 2023 set this franchise back for years.

[Cap'n Piranha]

8 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Thought he wanted a chance at a ring ?

If he was claimed off waivers, Thielen had no part in the decision to end up in Pittsburgh.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

Bengals - didn't tank. Sucked for five years

[TheLeviathan]

Quote

 

Where you and I differ is that you seem to think losing is a strategy. It's not. Bad teams will eventually get better because that's the wonderful, cyclical nature of the NFL (except for the Jets). But it's not because those teams had some grand strategy to tank until they get Cam Ward or Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold.

As to the draft pot-shots, I know you constantly draft future HOFers in the second round on Madden but the draft is far less helpful in real life. I shared a few articles on draft success rate based on rounds and positions to show the Vikings' results weren't atypical. You wanted to ignore it. I asked how you know the problem is drafting rather than coaching, you just kept blaming the GM for whatever reason.

 

So I'll address these shortly and distinctly from the other mess of a point you tried to make.

The point of tanking is NOT artificially propping yourself up from 4 wins to 7 or 8.  It's just embracing the fact that your roster needs a reset.  The Vikings, on the other hand, have forcibly propelled themselves into mediocrity when that was clearly the cap they could achieve.  So they used up resources, roster spots, draft picks meant to shore themselves up from being a disaster rather than "invest everything into a future breakthrough".  The Vikings refuse to do this, but smart teams are able to look themselves in the mirror without delusion.

As for the draft: Who am I to argue with any analysis that decides that legendary Minnesota Viking Ed Ingram was a feather in the Vikings draft cap? And don't get me started on Ring of Honor shoe-in Mechi Blackmon and the necessity it is to count him as a hit for Kwesi.  I mean, he ****ing crushed that pick.  Look at how much they got when he left!  1000 fake points for that one!  Analysis!

[Cap'n Piranha]

19 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Yeah, I don't know if he understands what tanking is.

[gunnarthor]

50 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

So I'll address these shortly and distinctly from the other mess of a point you tried to make.

The point of tanking is NOT artificially propping yourself up from 4 wins to 7 or 8.  It's just embracing the fact that your roster needs a reset.  The Vikings, on the other hand, have forcibly propelled themselves into mediocrity when that was clearly the cap they could achieve.  So they used up resources, roster spots, draft picks meant to shore themselves up from being a disaster rather than "invest everything into a future breakthrough".  The Vikings refuse to do this, but smart teams are able to look themselves in the mirror without delusion.

As for the draft: Who am I to argue with any analysis that decides that legendary Minnesota Viking Ed Ingram was a feather in the Vikings draft cap? And don't get me started on Ring of Honor shoe-in Mechi Blackmon and the necessity it is to count him as a hit for Kwesi.  I mean, he ****ing crushed that pick.  Look at how much they got when he left!  1000 fake points for that one!  Analysis!

If that's your definition of tanking, great. In theory, I agree with you but in practice, it doesn't work that way. And, that's not what most of the teams you cited were doing. Most teams always try to find extra wins. Too many people are invested in winning - coaches, gms, players. The one known example of tanking - that you also didn't include on your list - was Miami, where the owner wanted the team to tank for Tua (IIRC). Teams just don't see themselves as 4 win teams, they always expect better. Also, as fans, we should want better. I don't want the NFL to be like baseball or the NBA where the crappy teams just give up. I like "any given Sunday." 

(Also, most of your complaints about the Vikings history of mediocrity was a problem under Speilman. KAM has at least "gone for it" multiple times. Speilman was ok with 9 wins.)

As for your draft excuses, you still haven't answered how you know that the drafting is the problem as opposed to coaching/development. You mock Ingram but PFF has him as the 7th highest graded guard in football. That seems like a good result for a 2nd rounder. But he wasn't that with us. Also, Mekhi, not Mechi, is playing decently well for Indy. Why? You also refuse to accept that the Vikings draft results are fairly typical of normal expectations of those picks. Those seem like a pretty important questions if your objective is to find out why things went wrong.  If the objective is, "let's blame Kwesi Adofo-Mensah for everything," perhaps not so much.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Yeah, I don't know if he understands what tanking is.

Well, yes and no. I just think that most NFL teams are trying to win most of the time.

Sure, there are a few high profile cases, what Miami did to Flores, Indy’s Suck for Luck season, but I really think those are few and far between. I think it’s more of a fan thing. You guys seem to think tanking is some strategy all GM’s have in their back pocket, like “Break Glass in case of emergency.” It’s not. We are also not late enough in the season to see that jostling for higher draft position when teams start to shelve their better players and actually go for competitive losses, which is still somewhat rare I would argue. Maybe still a couple weeks away from that and the NFL mitigates that by scheduling rivalry games late in the year. 

Good to see teams like Chicago and Denver making a run but I dont think they were tanking, they were just mediocre/bad for a while. Given the cyclical nature of the NFL, probably a few of these surprise teams will fall back under .500 again next year. 

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

(Also, most of your complaints about the Vikings history of mediocrity was a problem under Speilman. KAM has at least "gone for it" multiple times. Speilman was ok with 9 wins.)

This is a strawman.  At no point did I say Spielman's name much less fawn over the return.  In fact, I've primarily focused on the owners with this complaint.  (If you were reading my actual arguments and not the ones you apparently want me to make, this might be known to you)

Tanking is NOT purposely trying to eek out 7 wins when what you really are is a 4 win team.  The year Spielman kept Kendricks and a bunch of other old dudes being the quintessential version of this stupidity.  KAM doing it his first year.  It's purposely placing yourself in purgatory.

Quote

As for your draft excuses, you still haven't answered how you know that the drafting is the problem as opposed to coaching/development. You mock Ingram but PFF has him as the 7th highest graded guard in football. That seems like a good result for a 2nd rounder. But he wasn't that with us. Also, Mekhi, not Mechi, is playing decently well for Indy. Why? You also refuse to accept that the Vikings draft results are fairly typical of normal expectations of those picks. Those seem like a pretty important questions if your objective is to find out why things went wrong.  If the objective is, "let's blame Kwesi Adofo-Mensah for everything," perhaps not so much.

Ah....spelling, the last resort.  The better questions are these - if these were great picks, could you please relay to me the value these two players are producing for the 2025 Vikings under their rookie contracts?  Or, if not that, surely you can point to some stirling bit of compensation they got for these draft gems when they sent them walking?

Your analysis was ridiculous because it propped up picks as "hits" that are quite obviously NOT HITS.  Period.  It was a poorly argued thesis with a set of definitions (made entirely subjectively by you) that can only be called ridiculous.  Flat earther pointing at the horizon kind of ridiculous.  

So....no.  I don't know who is the blame that he has so thoroughly failed the drafting process.  But I know who is in charge of it and I'm not the one finding excuses for that.

[TheLeviathan]

11 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Good to see teams like Chicago and Denver making a run but I dont think they were tanking, they were just mediocre/bad for a while. Given the cyclical nature of the NFL, probably a few of these surprise teams will fall back under .500 again next year. 

The point is...some franchises allow themselves to be bad.  They don't try fruitlessley to be "competitive" even when the writing is on the wall.  

I'll lay it out in terms of Vikings: do you think the right thing to do in the 2020 offseason was to take a 7 win team and double down on it to win 8 games?  Tanking teams cut their losses and stop the slow bleeding.