Correia 'threw the ball fantastic'

[Wanklenuts]

If they would have lost, I'm sure Gardy would have said something like Correia giving up the lead. The comeback win puts a different slant on the game. Instead of Correia getting behind and then giving the lead back, he pitched 'fantastic' and gave them the chance to win.

[DaveW]

I think we should read way too much into everything Gardy says!

[Craig Arko]

Next time he should say "He pitched like the son of Odin."

[IdahoPilgrim]

Sometimes people are critical of Gardenhire because there is a legitimate decision/move/quote over which it is reasonable to be critical and which deserves the light of public scrutiny.

 

Sometimes people are critical of Gardenhire because they've already made a decision that he should no longer be the manager and thus they approach every situation looking for a reason on which to hit him - and when you have that mindset you can ALWAYS find something about which to be critical.

 

The problem is when it becomes a "boy cried wolf" syndrome - too much of the second takes away from the legitimate discussion of the first.

[Thrylos]

I think that we are getting way into semantics, if Gardy said "alright" instead of "fantastic", I suspect that there would have been no issue, if that was the only comment that was said. If additional stuff was added about how good he was etc etc, then I do understand.

 

On the other hand you expect some sort of transparency out there just at least to see if the person who is making those comments (the manager in this case) is connected to reality. If he said that: "Correia struggled a bit in the beginning then pitched fantastic under nasty conditions until he ran out of gas late in the game", it would had been much more accurate. He skipped the first and the last part...

 

Still much better than throwing players under the bus, or (like a certain beloved by many former Twins player did) be all smiles after the loss in game 163 vs the Sux and saying "oh well, we will get them next year, we had a good run, you lose some, you win some", while he was big part of the loss because he did not want to get his uniform dirty...

[jorgenswest]

Health has been Correia's best skill. Many believe the best predictor of future injuries is previous injuries. Unlike many of the free agent options, Correia has been healthy.

 

With a career ERA- of 114 (an adjusted 14% worse than league average - median starter is usually around 102-103), he has performed like a #4 starter on a .500 team over his career. He isn't exciting. He isn't close to an ace. Given the last two years, the Twins need someone they can count on to take the ball every 5th day while keeping them in the majority of games.

 

The next step is for the Twins to develop 5 guys who are better and move him to a long relief/6th starter role next year.

[cmathewson]

I'm officially sick of his cutter. I haven't watched every inning, but it seems like every homer he's given up has been on that pitch, and most of the XBHs. He throws it just outside of middle middle at 86 with just the right spin to make the ball fly. He's got a decent curve and change. But he throws that cutter way too much.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm officially sick of his cutter. I haven't watched every inning, but it seems like every homer he's given up has been on that pitch, and most of the XBHs. He throws it just outside of middle middle at 86 with just the right spin to make the ball fly. He's got a decent curve and change. But he throws that cutter way too much.

 

The numbers bear out your observation.

According to fangraphs, his cutter has been his worst pitch, with a value of (negative) 1.9 runs above average.

His best pitch has been his fastball and curve, both at 0.5 RAA, and his changeup is at (negative) 1.0.

For his career, the only pitch with a positive RAA is his slider (which he hasn't used this year), with the remainder of his pitches all being equally bad (right around (neg) 10 to 11 RAA).

[Riverbrian]

I'm officially sick of his cutter. I haven't watched every inning, but it seems like every homer he's given up has been on that pitch, and most of the XBHs. He throws it just outside of middle middle at 86 with just the right spin to make the ball fly. He's got a decent curve and change. But he throws that cutter way too much.

 

I've also noticed this... Just eyeballing his starts. His fastball with sink down in the zone seems to be the most effective. IMO.

 

However... Throwing the cutter on occasion even if it causes occasional damage probably helps the effectiveness of his two seamer down and the effective two seamer could help his curve out like Brooks says... His curve seems average to me but its part of the mixin it up thing.

 

Just a guess from me... I don't know for sure but I have noticed that his cutter gets tagged every once in awhile.

[John Bonnes]

The number of subtexts rolling through this thread are making me dizzy. I feel like this is the culmination of at least a half dozen previous conversations and paradigms which I don't know the history of. Not that I particularly care.

 

If the point is that a)Correia is fast becoming a favorite of Gardy and the organization and b)that will all end in tears, I'd say a)yes and that's appropriate and probably, but there you have it. But I think I would have said both before the quote.

 

But I'll add this which I think we should remember about trying to take insight from one very generic Postgame quote: our interpretation likely says a lot more about us than about Gardy.

[Mr. Brooks]

The number of subtexts rolling through this thread are making me dizzy. I feel like this is the culmination of at least a half dozen previous conversations and paradigms which I don't know the history of. Not that I particularly care.

 

If the point is that a)Correia is fast becoming a favorite of Gardy and the organization and b)that will all end in tears, I'd say a)yes and that's appropriate and probably, but there you have it. But I think I would have said both before the quote.

 

But I'll add this which I think we should remember about trying to take insight from one very generic Postgame quote: our interpretation likely says a lot more about us than about Gardy.

 

The only thing I'll add to this argument is the following:

 

I think it says a lot about the sad direction that baseball in general, and particularly the Twins have gone when starts like these deserve praise.

It used to be starters were expected to go 9 innings, unless they got hurt or completely fell apart.

Then closers became a part of the game, and starters were expected to go 8 solid innings, and hand a lead to the closer.

Then bullpens expanded even more, and starters were expected to give you 7 good innings.

More recently, the Quality Start stat was invented, and starters were simply expected to put up utterly mediocre numbers (6 IP, 3 ER).

Now it has gotten so bad that guys are not even expected to give you that bare minimum??

They get high praise and a pat on the back for simply getting to the 7th inning, even if they give up 4 or 5 runs?

That is just sad, and it's not just the Twins, though the Twins are probably more guilty of it than just about anyone.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

Yawn. Correia is better than all the haters of the signing said he'd be, and he's not as good as his incredible April.

 

It's almost as if a guy getting paid #4/#5 money is playing like a #4/#5 starter.

[Mr. Brooks]

Yawn. Correia is better than all the haters of the signing said he'd be, and he's not as good as his incredible April.

 

It's almost as if a guy getting paid #4/#5 money is playing like a #4/#5 starter.

 

I think the point is that guys like that don't usually get showered with praise. Personally, it's not much of an issue to me what Gardy says about him, but I'm just saying I think that is the point.

[ThePuck]

Yawn. Correia is better than all the haters of the signing said he'd be, and he's not as good as his incredible April.

 

It's almost as if a guy getting paid #4/#5 money is playing like a #4/#5 starter.

 

He's not better than many thought he was. He's doing what he's done the last couple years...have a good April, then take a carp. So far, he's had a good April, a horrible May, starting June off very poorly as well.

 

And, BTW, he came into the season as the #2 pitcher. How many of our pitchers are going to get the excuse, he's doing what a number 4 or number 5 pitcher does?

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

He's not better than many thought he was. He's doing what he's done the last couple years...have a good April, then take a carp. So far, he's had a good April, a horrible May, starting June off very poorly as well.

 

And, BTW, he came into the season as the #2 pitcher. How many of our pitchers are going to get the excuse, he's doing what a number 4 or number 5 pitcher does?

 

It's not an excuse, it's reality.

 

Spot in the rotation has nothing do with Correia. That's an indictment of the front office not the player.

[TheLeviathan]

Spot in the rotation has nothing do with Correia. That's an indictment of the front office not the player.

 

I don't think anyone has a personal dislike for Kevin Corriea. I'm sure he's a very nice man who loves his family and doesn't go around kicking puppies or taking sugary goodies from infants.

 

And no one is making any such argument. All arguments about Correia's performanc, are arguments meant to indict the front office for their failure to deliver on their offseason goals. So I'm not sure who exactly you're lecturing.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

I don't think anyone has a personal dislike for Kevin Corriea. I'm sure he's a very nice man who loves his family and doesn't go around kicking puppies or taking sugary goodies from infants.

 

And no one is making any such argument. All arguments about Correia's performanc, are arguments meant to indict the front office for their failure to deliver on their offseason goals. So I'm not sure who exactly you're lecturing.

 

It's amusing you start your post off with an argument nobody is making to claim nobody is making another argument.

 

The Puck's post brought up his spot in the rotation as an argument and stated me calling him a #4/#5 starter as an excuse.

 

Could I get you to post a little blurb on what every thread is about so I view them all through your filter?

[TheLeviathan]

The Puck's post brought up his spot in the rotation as an argument and stated me calling him a #4/#5 starter as an excuse.

Could I get you to post a little blurb on what every thread is about so I view them all through your filter?

 

And Puck's point was meant as an indictment of the front office for putting him there. I don't see why this is hard to see. You can evaluate his performance based on the past (where he was used as a backend starter/bullpen) but this team isn't using him that way.

 

You are using the 4/5 starter thing to prop up Correia, but no one is saying Kevin Corriea is far underperforming by Kevin Correia standards. Kevin Correia is far underperforming the standards of where this team placed him. And you're right, that is on the front office.

 

Which all everyone is saying - we have too many guys that fit that mold, so you could use that excuse to defend any of their performances.

[Guest USAFChief]

I have no problem with "he threw the ball fantastic." Prolly not the best description of his effort, but big deal.

 

I do have a problem with "he deserved to go out there for the 7th." This is the big leagues. Nobody "deserves" anything, except us fans who deserve an organization that does everything in its power to win.

 

"My bullpen was beat up, and I really needed another inning." Fine.

 

"I thought he had another inning in him." Usually OK.

 

"A W for Correia is more important than a W for the Twins." Not OK. Not at all.

[Craig Arko]

Diamond is pitching like Zeus's libido.

 

(Thought I could spare the need for a new thread.)

[Kwak]

Did anyone expect Gardy to be candid and accurate? Example: "Correira pitched a darn good game for us through six, but I 'screwed-up' and left him in for the 7th".

[Riverbrian]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here... But does anyone realize how routine these post game interviews have to be for Gardenhire.

 

Hes been Managing since 2002. He's probably done about 1,700 plus of em. Tack on the regular run of the mill interview which probably numbers in the thousands.

 

I'm guessing... that back in 2002... He probably gave serious thought to what he said and how he phrased things for reporters... By now... It's probably the equivalent to a bar owner sweeping the floor after closing time. Its just something he has to do but easy to go through the motions after doing it nightly.

 

I'm sure we can all find the equivalent to this in our jobs.

 

I place no creedence in the post game interview... I think it's something he just gets through. Something he has done as often as Ashburyjohn has clipped his toenails and done with as much care.

 

His job begins when he meets with the players, coaches and the GM. That's where the action is.

[TheLeviathan]

His job begins when he meets with the players, coaches and the GM. That's where the action is.

 

Your point is well taken, except his managing habits are matching his rhetoric: too much trust, too much praise, too much having his back no matter what. Therein lies the problem.

[Riverbrian]

Your point is well taken, except his managing habits are matching his rhetoric: too much trust, too much praise, too much having his back no matter what. Therein lies the problem.

 

After 1,700 plus games... I think it's quite possible that every facet of his job has become routine. I have no idea if it actually is and I wouldnt make a definite claim... But if its like any job across America... It is quite possible. Actually... Most likely.

[jokin]

Did anyone expect Gardy to be candid and accurate? Example: "Correira pitched a darn good game for us through six, but I 'screwed-up' and left him in for the 7th".

 

He actually did say something to that effect. Gardy understands the situation, the club is going to protect their $10M investment, in the process continuing their marketing of their asset to the rest of baseball and painting the best picture of the situation. I hope they get a few decent offers for him in July and the Twins pull the trigger.

[TheLeviathan]

After 1,700 plus games... I think it's quite possible that every facet of his job has become routine. I have no idea if it actually is and I wouldnt make a definite claim... But if its like any job across America... It is quite possible. Actually... Most likely.

 

I wish he'd more routinely treat, say, Plouffe like he does Correia in that case.

[Riverbrian]

I wish he'd more routinely treat, say, Plouffe like he does Correia in that case.

 

No way of me knowing about Plouffe or Correia specifically so I'll take the names out to protect the innocent.

 

Isn't it possible that he has higher expectations for Player A than he does for player B when comparing skill sets. Maybe Player B works harder just to be average and maybe Player A has the potential to be above average but doesn't execute and they end up looking even in value.

 

In that scenerio... You would be disappointed in Player A and satisfied with player B yet to the outsider they are equal in production.

 

I'm just throwing something out for thought. I could be way wrong... No way of knowing without direct access.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm just throwing something out for thought. I could be way wrong... No way of knowing without direct access.

 

We don't, but if we look for patterns in how Gardenhire administers treatment, I'd argue age is the top way to get on the dog list. And I'd say guys scraping by with limited talent and guts get a quick pass in his book.

 

I completely understand what you're saying, but I think comments like these reflect how backwards he often is on people management.

[The Wise One]

We don't, but if we look for patterns in how Gardenhire administers treatment, I'd argue age is the top way to get on the dog list. And I'd say guys scraping by with limited talent and guts get a quick pass in his book.

 

I completely understand what you're saying, but I think comments like these reflect how backwards he often is on people management.

 

Is it backwards to have high expectations of people?

Should he be ripping people who slide by on talent and ripping those who do not do well by a major league standard but are performing better than those that have their skill set?

 

Attitude without the performance to back it up gets you on the dog list. Mauer could be a complete synonym for Richard and not end up in the doghouse. He could have been that way from day one. The team has not had a star rookie since.

[TheLeviathan]

Is it backwards to have high expectations of people?

 

Not at all, but your expectations should be (and it's a Twins meme even!) consistent. It's backwards to coddle veterans and be harsh on rookies publicly. In fact, I'd argue it's a rather cowardly form of management based on power.

 

I'd rather the manager publicly be nothing but token cliches than this. (Probably in the minority on that) I'd appreciate honesty, but I'd like it to be consistent and fair honesty. I don't understand how some on this board can't see that there are significantly better strategies to public comments and they don't require back flips, law degrees, or once-in-a-lifetime public speaking skills. It's relatively foundational stuff.

 

Attitude without the performance to back it up gets you on the dog list. .

 

Frankly, this is far more speculation than I am engaging in. You may be right, but it's total speculation. I'm not speculating about age or minimal talent, just to make that distinction clear.