Twins 2, Pirates 0: Dallas Keuchel Flirts With Perfection; Twins Take Series

[chpettit19]

9 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

I will agree that seeking a favorable matchup has been in existence for as long as I can remember, but you are not responding to the original objection.  The issue was doing it in the third inning.  That isn't something that was previously done (unless there was an injury).  Here's a scenario for you.  Your opponent uses a left handed pitcher to start a game.  Playing the match-up game, you go with a heavy right handed lineup.  All very traditional.  At the start of the 3rd inning, your opponent brings in a right handed pitcher.  Using your philosophy, you pinch hit for your right handers.  At the start of the 5th inning, your opponent brings in another lefty.  What is your move?  Use the remaining bench players so you can match up right handers against a lefty?  If so, you have now exhausted your bench and have no one left to pinch hit for the rest of the game.  My OPINION is that doing so is a very stupid move.  And if you hadn't wasted your original right handed lineup, they would now be facing a left handed pitcher again.  AND you would still have players left for late inning moves.

And what a few of us have pointed out is that the thing that changed is when pitchers are removed from games. The opener is the change, not the pinch hitting. 

That's why it's important to know what pitchers are available for the other team. I already broke down Pits options on Sunday. And Rocco didn't take out all his righties he took out 1, his platoon bat. He knew they only had 1 other lefty available and with his lefties spread throughout his lineup he forced the pirates to decide between using that lefty vs Julien (his best bat) where he could pinch hit Farmer if he wanted, or use the lefty vs Wallner and Gallo (his lesser bats). 

So my response to your hypothetical situation is that the strategy would depend on what I know about the other team's staff that day. What you described wasn't what the Twins were facing, and they knew that. But I agree that if you know they're going bullpen day and have multiple lefties capable of throwing multiple innings I wouldn't like wholesale changes. But the Pirates didn't have that setup, Rocco started his 2 lefties down in the order to get them away from the opener as best possible, and only replaced 1 guy.

[wabene]

10 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

I will agree that seeking a favorable matchup has been in existence for as long as I can remember, but you are not responding to the original objection.  The issue was doing it in the third inning.  That isn't something that was previously done (unless there was an injury).  Here's a scenario for you.  Your opponent uses a left handed pitcher to start a game.  Playing the match-up game, you go with a heavy right handed lineup.  All very traditional.  At the start of the 3rd inning, your opponent brings in a right handed pitcher.  Using your philosophy, you pinch hit for your right handers.  At the start of the 5th inning, your opponent brings in another lefty.  What is your move?  Use the remaining bench players so you can match up right handers against a lefty?  If so, you have now exhausted your bench and have no one left to pinch hit for the rest of the game.  My OPINION is that doing so is a very stupid move.  And if you hadn't wasted your original right handed lineup, they would now be facing a left handed pitcher again.  AND you would still have players left for late inning moves.

Ok now we have your opinion. Which ever way you go, the way the Twins did, or the way you suggest, you could end up with at bats that don't have the platoon advantage. If you ask me it doesn't really matter either way and would just come down to players. Who is that lefty that is available in the pen? Which batter are you talking out or putting in? I agree with @stringer bell's idea, they could've put in Kepler and just left him there. Problem solved. 

IMO @Hubie29's complaint is just that a complaint, and not very nuanced. 

[Squirrel]

I think we have beaten this topic dead. And I think I know a good topic for next off-season’s debate … any takers?

But for now, as agreement isn’t really in the cards from what I can read, and a lot of repeating the same sides and frustrations, let’s move on. Thanks,

[jorgenswest]

13 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

The issue was doing it in the third inning.  That isn't something that was previously done (unless there was an injury).

May 22, 1969

Baltimore’s starter right handed Jim Hardin was pulled in the first inning and replaced by lefty Marcelino Lopez. Cesar Tovar pinch hit for Graig Nettles in inning 3 to get the platoon advantage. They also pinch hit Mitterrand for Roseboro but Roseboro did bat twice.

Pitchers were rarely pulled early so getting one at bat and then being pinch hit for was more rare at the time but it happened then. I suppose managers also needed to make sure to save bats to pinch hit for the pitcher but it still happened.

I did not need to search very hard to find this. I know how both Martin and Weaver used the platoon. I remember how Nettles, Allison, Tovar early in the season, Uhlaender, Roseboro, Mitterwald were used.

Here is another that year when Quilici was pulled after one at bat and pinch hit for by Uhlaender to gain the platoon advantage. Washington’s starter Moore only pitched two innings.

 

edit: apologies for adding a reply after squirrel. Didn’t see it until submitted. I am out now.