Mackey: Sano Could Hold His Own in the Majors Right Now

[Mike Sixel]

Who has more professional innings at 3B, Plouffe, or Sano? And, wouldn't it be easier for a younger guy to learn a new position? I think people need to give Plouffe some time before writing him off.

[ThePuck]

Who has more professional innings at 3B, Plouffe, or Sano? And, wouldn't it be easier for a younger guy to learn a new position? I think people need to give Plouffe some time before writing him off.

 

Who is writing him off? We have the guy till he's like 31 anyway, so he's gonna be around :-)

 

BTW, Baseball reference says he's arbitration eligible in 2014 but not a free agent till 2018. 4 years of arbitration for him (2014-2017)? That seems odd.

[jokin]

Who is writing him off? We have the guy till he's like 31 anyway, so he's gonna be around :-)

 

BTW, Baseball reference says he's arbitration eligible in 2014 but not a free agent till 2018. 4 years of arbitration for him (2014-2017)? That seems odd.

 

Pretty sure Plouffe was a Super 2

[Physics Guy]

Who has more professional innings at 3B, Plouffe, or Sano? And, wouldn't it be easier for a younger guy to learn a new position? I think people need to give Plouffe some time before writing him off.

 

Agreed. Given that he's a converted SS, he makes the plays coming forward very well. I'm a little surprised he's having trouble to his left, but maybe that was part of the issue he had as a SS (besides the throwing part). Correct me if I'm wrong, but he had trouble as a SS when he had to rush his throw. He seems to have no such problem on the bunts/slow rollers when he has to rush his throw. IMO his issues stem from a lack of experience. He shows signs that he can make tough plays, but just needs to find consistency. I still believe he will turn out to be at minimum a league average defensive 3B. That would be more than acceptable if he has an OPS of .800 with a league average of .740 last year.

[Willihammer]

Are you thinking of the Pujols grounder? I'm not sure Superman could have caught that one cleanly. I give him credit for getting in front of that missal and redirecting it to Florimon, who got the out.

 

Moral victory? I was thinking more about balls like one last Monday that sneaked right between his glove and his top hand. There have been at least 2 or 3 other balls that he got to, but he didn't get his glove on the ground so the ball cruised on into left field.

 

Also, what precedent is there for guys improving their defensive play age 26 and older? Any at all?

[ThePuck]

Pretty sure Plouffe was a Super 2

 

I did not know he qualified for that...good for him.

[Brock Beauchamp]

So, what metric or stat can we use to talk about whether or not he's an average defender at 3B or not? They're all discounted, even though they all say he's well below average.

 

So it's just the eye test? Matter of opinion then...nothing more? I wanna know.

 

 

Pretty much just the eye test. Watch a lot of games, form an opinion.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Also, what precedent is there for guys improving their defensive play age 26 and older? Any at all?

 

The precedent is "has less than 200 games played at the position". Players get better at a position as they get more reps.

 

Third base is a lot different from short. Everything is reaction time instead of range. No one should be surprised by Trevor's scuffling at the position.

[ThePuck]

Pretty much just the eye test. Watch a lot of games, form an opinion.

 

yup...eye test says, he's clearly below average right now...

[jay]

But for whatever reason, Plouffe seems to excel at fielding bunts.

 

Very true. I wonder if this has something to do with being comfortable charging balls from all his time at SS.

 

I'd also wonder if you could say that's why he isn't great at the hard-hit choppers yet. A lot more time to react from SS compared to 3B.

 

The point about Sano being his defensively replacement is pretty null anyway. Plouffe D > Sano D, probably forever.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Sometimes I think Plouffe couldn't field a sharp ground ball if it hit him in the ear and dropped dead on the ground. And if he did field that ball, there would be the usual 25% chance he makes Justin jump off 1B to catch his throw. But for whatever reason, Plouffe seems to excel at fielding bunts. If this is actually the case, then its only a matter of time before teams figure out that they need to start bunting to 1B instead.

 

No offense, but I don't anyone could field a sharp ground ball if it hit them in the ear and dropped dead to the ground... Odds are good they'd be dead to the ground too

[ThePuck]

The point about Sano being his defensively replacement is pretty null anyway. Plouffe D > Sano D, probably forever.

 

Man, you are so lucky to have seen Sano play so much 3B. I, personally, haven't been so lucky so I have no idea if Sano will ever get to be better than Plouffe.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Honestly, I don't think moving Sano up to the bigs this year (or next) makes a ton of sense. For one, being able to hold their own is a lot different than being able to excel. I'm not sure I want him up here if all he can do is hold his own. That isn't in the Twins best interest, and its only in his best interest in terms of reaching FA earlier, not development. I'd prefer he be able to step up and be average or better, and holding their own doesn't imply this. If he continues to hit the snot out of the ball in FTM, I do think he should moved up to NB as long as he can keep the strikeouts down. He's striking out in 28% of his at bats presently (SSS I know) and his walk rate is down a bit as well, though that could be due to the fact that he's hitting very well presently. I'd think major league pitchers would have a pretty easy time exposing a kid striking out that much in A+ ball.

 

As for Plouffe, I think he will likely move back up the middle at one point. The middle infield is one area that of need even for the next wave. It's looking more like his bat is legit. He may end up being more of a Rob Deer type player, but if he can post an .800-.850 OPS, I'd be more than happy to send him back up the middle when Sano arrives. I'd think Trevor can play pretty passable defense at 2nd, and I could even see him getting another shot at SS if his throwing issues are gone. As mentioned by others, he's fielding bunts pretty well, so I think he's beyond the "nerves" problem. The next wave team might end up with some pretty solid hitters 1-9 with some weaker defense up the middle, but strong OF defense. I can handle that, as they should score plenty of runs. You might end up seeing infield defensive subs later in games instead of outfield subs, but I think that's well worth it with Sano, Parmalee, Rosario, and Plouffe occupying those spots, as those guys can hit. I'm also crossing my fingers that Ryan found something special in Escobar as well, as that would give us a really nice problem to have...

[cmathewson]

Moral victory? I was thinking more about balls like one last Monday that sneaked right between his glove and his top hand. There have been at least 2 or 3 other balls that he got to, but he didn't get his glove on the ground so the ball cruised on into left field.

 

Also, what precedent is there for guys improving their defensive play age 26 and older? Any at all?

 

Koskie did. He was very rough when he had his first full year in 1999 as a 26 year old. He eventually got very good at the position.

[ThePuck]

Koskie was also always a 3B...even in the minors..but he did eventually become a good 3B.

[Teflon]

One thing hindering the defensive development of Twins third basemen is how infrequently Twins pitchers strike out opposing hitters which in-turn reduces all the normal in-game practice opportunities the third baseman would have gotten from the throws down to the hot corner from the catcher following the K's and the subsequent relays of said throws to second.

 

Seriously, we're arguing about this? A third baseman fields the ball three times a game. Detroit has the right idea.

[Brock Beauchamp]

yup...eye test says, he's clearly below average right now...

 

I'd agree with that but how far below average is still up in the air... This team has only played 13 games, almost all of them in miserable weather. Plouffe hasn't had much of a chance to show anything.

[jokin]

Honestly, I don't think moving Sano up to the bigs this year (or next) makes a ton of sense. For one, being able to hold their own is a lot different than being able to excel. I'm not sure I want him up here if all he can do is hold his own. That isn't in the Twins best interest, and its only in his best interest in terms of reaching FA earlier, not development. I'd prefer he be able to step up and be average or better, and holding their own doesn't imply this. If he continues to hit the snot out of the ball in FTM, I do think he should moved up to NB as long as he can keep the strikeouts down. He's striking out in 28% of his at bats presently (SSS I know) and his walk rate is down a bit as well, though that could be due to the fact that he's hitting very well presently. I'd think major league pitchers would have a pretty easy time exposing a kid striking out that much in A+ ball.

 

As for Plouffe, I think he will likely move back up the middle at one point. The middle infield is one area that of need even for the next wave. It's looking more like his bat is legit. He may end up being more of a Rob Deer type player, but if he can post an .800-.850 OPS, I'd be more than happy to send him back up the middle when Sano arrives. I'd think Trevor can play pretty passable defense at 2nd, and I could even see him getting another shot at SS if his throwing issues are gone. As mentioned by others, he's fielding bunts pretty well, so I think he's beyond the "nerves" problem. The next wave team might end up with some pretty solid hitters 1-9 with some weaker defense up the middle, but strong OF defense. I can handle that, as they should score plenty of runs. You might end up seeing infield defensive subs later in games instead of outfield subs, but I think that's well worth it with Sano, Parmalee, Rosario, and Plouffe occupying those spots, as those guys can hit. I'm also crossing my fingers that Ryan found something special in Escobar as well, as that would give us a really nice problem to have...

 

Plouffe's .791 OPS in 2012 would be a team-3rd best in all of baseball at Second Base (the Yankees were first with .929 and the Diamondbacks were second with .882). Plouffe would be a team-2nd best at SS with his 2012 OPS compared to the Nats at .848. Assuming Plouffe continues to mature as a hitter and can consistently reach the low- to mid- 800s, it would have to be worth considering the tradeoff. His defense has never been good at any position, obviously SS is where he would do his team the most damage- and I shudder to think of a defensive IF with Sano, Plouffe and Rosario across the diamond, but if Sano cuts it at 3B, you have to consider Rosario, if he can't cut it at 2B and has to go to the OF, Plouffe and his potential big bat has to be considered as the most viable long-term option. This would leave room to assuage fears from the pitching staff, for a big glove/no bat SS to anchor the IF.

[Aaron Cross]

It's a long season yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if we saw Sano in the big

leagues in 2013. Also, Plouffe hasn't been great, but he's been anything but "awful" so far.

He is unquestionably an awful major league baseball player.

[Brock Beauchamp]

He is unquestionably an awful major league baseball player.

 

Totally. I mean, who CAN'T post an OPS of .800 in this league?* Piece of cake, amirite?

 

*over 80% of players, actually

[Aaron Cross]

Fair enough. It's early. Not even a whole season of games. But he's got work

to do. He doesn't have the softest hands. That's for sure. But he's pretty quick for a third baseman.

 

One thing Sano has (according to both Mint and Molly) is soft hands. His problem is not catching the ball. It's getting to it and throwing it. He's got a rocket arm, which sometimes missfires. And he's really thick in the legs, so his first step is relatively slow. I'm not sure that will ever improve. But I hope he can be quick enough to stay there.

He just botched a slow roller on tuesday. Not to mention airmailing another throw to 1st and booting the last play of the game.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Plouffe's .791 OPS in 2012 would be a team-3rd best in all of baseball at Second Base (the Yankees were first with .929 and the Diamondbacks were second with .882). Plouffe would be a team-2nd best at SS with his 2012 OPS compared to the Nats at .848. Assuming Plouffe continues to mature as a hitter and can consistently reach the low- to mid- 800s, it would have to be worth considering the tradeoff. His defense has never been good at any position, obviously SS is where he would do his team the most damage- and I shudder to think of a defensive IF with Sano, Plouffe and Rosario across the diamond, but if Sano cuts it at 3B, you have to consider Rosario, if he can't cut it at 2B and has to go to the OF, Plouffe and his potential big bat has to be considered as the most viable long-term option. This would leave room to assuage fears from the pitching staff, for a big glove/no bat SS to anchor the IF.

 

I think both of those guys are going to stick. They will have to be absolute butchers for that to not happen.

 

I agree the defense wouldn't be pretty, but the OF defense should be good, and that team will have guys like Meyer, May, Gibson, and (hopefully someone like Manaea/Gray/Appel) along with whatever they might be able to flip Morneau and Willingham for. There's a lot more strike out potential/weak grounder in that group which should reduce the opportunity for mistakes quite a bit. Plouffe's range at short was always considered average, it was his arm that was suspect due to the need to put netting up on the first base side of the field. If his erratic throws are behind him, I'd put him back at short if that bat is legit... I think Trevor would welcome it too, the payday will be much better.

[jokin]

I think both of those guys are going to stick. They will have to be absolute butchers for that to not happen.

 

I agree the defense wouldn't be pretty, but the OF defense should be good, and that team will have guys like Meyer, May, Gibson, and (hopefully someone like Manaea/Gray/Appel) along with whatever they might be able to flip Morneau and Willingham for. There's a lot more strike out potential/weak grounder in that group which should reduce the opportunity for mistakes quite a bit. Plouffe's range at short was always considered average, it was his arm that was suspect due to the need to put netting up on the first base side of the field. If his erratic throws are behind him, I'd put him back at short if that bat is legit... I think Trevor would welcome it too, the payday will be much better.

 

Give me Gray and I will be in clover!

 

On Plouffe, I watch for those throws ala his SS debacle, and I'm still seeing too many high throws to First. And Parmelee is a smaller target than Morneau- magnifying the defect. I could live with Plouffe at SS as a Hardy-type, with possibly a better bat, but that SS debacle of a performance in 2011 gives me pause that he'll ever solve his erratic-ness, he's still erratic at an easier position, just less magnified, and having him anchor the IF with 2 defensively-shaky rookies along-side him gives me cause for concern.

 

If he could ease my mind with a better defensive performance the rest of this year, I would be as pumped as you about that potential infield- they'd probably have a decent chance to end up having the best combined hitting numbers for the 3 spots in all of baseball at some point.

[Aaron Cross]

Totally. I mean, who CAN'T post an OPS of .800 in

this league?* Piece of cake, amirite?

 

*over 80% of players, actually

 

So he hit alot of solo hr's in a cute little 2 month stretch last year. Im happy for him.

[diehardtwinsfan]

So he hit alot of solo hr's in a cute little 2 month stretch last year. Im happy for him.

 

Dankind?

[Aaron Cross]

Overall, im positive on this team and the direction we're headed, but im just not a plouffe fan.

[ThePuck]

Plouffe's .791 OPS in 2012 would be a team-3rd best in all of baseball at Second Base (the Yankees were first with .929 and the Diamondbacks were second with .882).

 

Plouffe didn't have a .791 OPS in 2012.

[cmathewson]

he just botched a slow roller on tuesday. Not to mention airmailing another throw to 1st and booting the last play of the game.

 

he botched a slow roller??!!! Dfa him. He's worthless!

[cmathewson]

Plouffe didn't have a .791 OPS in 2012.

 

No, it was a .756 OPS with 24 HRs and 19 doubles. And a significant wrist injury. And spending the first two months on the bench.

[jokin]

No, it was a .756 OPS with 24 HRs and 19 doubles. And a significant wrist injury. And spending the first two months on the bench.

 

Yup. The injury made a huge difference, at the time he got hurt last July, his OPS was .855.

 

And I need to offer a mea culpa, Plouffe's non-hot start to 2013 has yielded his current OPS of .791. Can't wait to see what he does when the weather heats up.