Very informative interview with Twins assistant GM Rob Antony

[jokin]

Has anyone ever considered that fixing it the right way might mean another year or two of losing seasons while they stockpile talent to form the next core?

 

Unless you're the Yankees, winning is going to require having a very nice core of players, and the using the cash to fill in the gaps. I like others wasn't thrilled about all the moves (more realistically, the KC move), but the reality is that the best way to build a good competitive team is to do it via draft and trades. The Twins have done mighty well in that regard. They should be able to add a very nice piece or two in June and then turn around and being doing the same thing next year in a much deeper draft.

 

We are in general agreement on how to turn a team around. But there are some differences that have to be part of the equation. The Twins chose to keep 2 high-priced former MVPs in their prime- while supposedly rebuilding- in the meantime they have aggressively cut payroll, betraying the public trust for the publicly financed stadium- and the very argument they made that giving them the new stadium would make them compete more like the Yankees.

[jokin]

It's impossible to have a discussion when you wish to frame every piece of evidence in terms totally favorable to your point and overall ideology. Begging? Falling all over themselves? Playing the pity potty game? Those are all ridiculous characterizations that don't strike me as very serious. Every chance you get you try to paint the Twins not only as incompetent, but as bumbling fools.

 

Financially, there was no reason why they couldn't have kept the payroll at the 2011 level. The disaster after that year is a mini-version of the Red Sox implosion of 2012. Unbelievable stretch of injuries and underperformers. Given their newfound status as one of the haves (light) versus the have-nots, would it have been too much to ask that they fulfill the promises surrounding the new stadium and try to do a MINI-overhaul/reload in the 2011 offseason as the Red Sox did in the 2012 offseason?

[IdahoPilgrim]

Isn't it a shame when good threads go bad?

[TheLeviathan]

Good interview. From what Antony said it sounds like most of their conversations were preliminary at best and never got to the point of actual contract offers. So this doesn't discredit or change any opinions. Money still matters, but of course there are other factors that go into a decision.

 

I think anyone latching on to the idea that this somehow proves that non-money factors are why FAs avoid us is reading into this WAY too much. As Antony said, most of their signings seemed to be the aggressor in getting it done. The Twins have a standing reputation that they aren't going to overspend. That kind of aggressive tact with FA dollars can quickly make a negotiation happen. It shouldn't surprise us it doesn't happen with the Twins and guys part ways only with cordial conversations if the team isn't being aggressive with their resources. That's not to slight the Twins, just a statement of their approach.

[jokin]

Isn't it a shame when good threads go bad?

 

I find it a shame that the Twins have the lowest payroll in the Central Division and 23rd out of 30 teams. This, even though they were 13th in attendance in 2012, only trailing Detroit by 250,000 and way, way ahead of the Sox, Indians and Royals, who finished between 24th and 29th place.

[Guest USAFChief]

Sure, but I would also argue that there just aren't that many quality free agents each offseason to build even 3/5 of a staff in this manner. Greinke and Sanchez were the only two premium free agents this offseason in my mind and those would have been tough contracts to match.

 

I would argue a realistic plan in an offseason if you were ready to go all in could be if you had 3 established starters and maybe some guys competing you could sign one premium free agent and maybe another body to fill the #5 spot. More than that would be difficult.

True, but we're talking about "rebuilding" and whether that HAS to be done entirely through your own minor league system. If you're rebuilding through your minor leagues, it's almost certainly a multi-year process, right? Can't you build through FA over the same time frame while hoping a couple of your minor leaguers turn into real assets, rather than the other way around? BTW, I sort of feel like we're having a side conversation in this thread, but I appreciate the discussion.

[glunn]

Isn't it a shame when good threads go bad?

 

When I started this thread, I was hoping that there would be a lot of intelligent discussion. We started with some of that, then some intelligent members got sidetracked into showing disrespect for each other which then devolved into bickering.

 

When intelligent adults fight like third graders, it's no fun for them and it's no fun for the rest of us to read. That's what CSPAN is for.

 

I appreciate the restraint that was shown by all but one member, and that member has now been asked to not do this again.

 

We are all Twins fans. This is a sacred bond. We are better than fans of other teams and TD is better than their websites, Even our stupid bear is better than the feces flinging fleabag that the Angels have.

 

Let's look at this thread as a rare lapse and each do what we can to do better,

[snepp]

Compared to the rock bottom we hit during the offseason, this thread barely cracks a PG rating.

 

 

[old nurse]

Good interview. From what Antony said it sounds like most of their conversations were preliminary at best and never got to the point of actual contract offers. So this doesn't discredit or change any opinions. Money still matters, but of course there are other factors that go into a decision.

 

I think anyone latching on to the idea that this somehow proves that non-money factors are why FAs avoid us is reading into this WAY too much. As Antony said, most of their signings seemed to be the aggressor in getting it done. The Twins have a standing reputation that they aren't going to overspend. That kind of aggressive tact with FA dollars can quickly make a negotiation happen. It shouldn't surprise us it doesn't happen with the Twins and guys part ways only with cordial conversations if the team isn't being aggressive with their resources. That's not to slight the Twins, just a statement of their approach.

Yet how many different contracts have the Twins given out to players have people criticized as being excessive and a waste of money? For starters the FA this winter

[ThePuck]

And Old Nursie was villified and mocked for even saying that it was a disctinct possibility in the club's problem in signnig free agents.

 

He was 'mocked' as you put it because he kept saying money was never the factor...that it was always the other issues that kept FAs away. I remember distinctly because when the discussion as to why FAs weren't coming here was going on, I wrote that money might also be a factor and he tore into that idea...even after I told him I didn't say it was the only factor, but could be a factor for some. He blew it off as impossible.

[TheLeviathan]

Yet how many different contracts have the Twins given out to players have people criticized as being excessive and a waste of money? For starters the FA this winter

 

I'm sorry, what's your point? Yes, they overpaid Correia (and, amusingly, cited "innings" as their motivation) but doesn't that prove the point? When the Twins do choose to overpay, they generally get what they want. They just rarely choose to do so. Or choose to only overpay in increments of three or less years.

[jokin]

I'm sorry, what's your point? Yes, they overpaid Correia (and, amusingly, cited "innings" as their motivation) but doesn't that prove the point? When the Twins do choose to overpay, they generally get what they want. They just rarely choose to do so. Or choose to only overpay in increments of three or less years.

 

Nothing wrong with short-term, high dollar deals if you are getting top talent. The Twins clearly overpaid for mediocre talent, is that even up for debate? Even Terry Ryan got defensive about his role in the signing in his February interview about Correia, laying it off pretty much on the "evaluators".

[diehardtwinsfan]

We are in general agreement on how to turn a team around. But there are some differences that have to be part of the equation. The Twins chose to keep 2 high-priced former MVPs in their prime- while supposedly rebuilding- in the meantime they have aggressively cut payroll, betraying the public trust for the publicly financed stadium- and the very argument they made that giving them the new stadium would make them compete more like the Yankees.

 

Neither of those two highpriced MVPs would have fetched much this offseason. People were looking to get both for a song, and I doubt Mauer could have been had for anything... not to mention the fan revolt that would have happened had he been traded. That was the right move, period. As I said, I wasn't thrilled about the offseason, particularly with what they got, but like it or not, suffering through another year of bad play is probably best for the long term core. They will likely add a college pitcher this draft and have another very high pick available next year as well, and that draft is much stronger.

[jokin]

Neither of those two highpriced MVPs would have fetched much this offseason. People were looking to get both for a song, and I doubt Mauer could have been had for anything... not to mention the fan revolt that would have happened had he been traded. That was the right move, period. As I said, I wasn't thrilled about the offseason, particularly with what they got, but like it or not, suffering through another year of bad play is probably best for the long term core. They will likely add a college pitcher this draft and have another very high pick available next year as well, and that draft is much stronger.

 

I wasn't so much referring to the 2012 offseson. The Twins could have done a RESET after 2011, either pick themselves right back up with the strong core and go for it- OR- opt for "do not pass GO- go directly to rebuild". They chose to patch up the wreck and try to keep heads above water in 2012, delaying one more year for the rebuild to (unofficially) commence. Financially, they were in a position to do both, instead we will hit bottom on the "rebuild that shall not be named as such" on the payroll in 2015- followed, hopefully by, the rookie- and second year-laden lineup of that year plus Mauer that will be ready to seriously compete right away.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I wasn't so much referring to the 2012 offseson. The Twins could have done a RESET after 2011, either pick themselves right back up with the strong core and go for it- OR- opt for "do not pass GO- go directly to rebuild". They chose to patch up the wreck and try to keep heads above water in 2012, delaying one more year for the rebuild to (unofficially) commence. Financially, they were in a position to do both, instead we will hit bottom on the "rebuild that shall not be named as such" on the payroll in 2015- followed, hopefully by, the rookie- and second year-laden lineup of that year plus Mauer that will be ready to seriously compete right away.

 

Explain to me exactly who they could have gotten value for in 2011? They went from a 94 win team in 2010 to a 99 loss team that year. Their best chip would have been Baker, but its quite possible he wouldn't have passed his physical. I can understand the strategy given that it was quite possible that a lot of guys bounced back and looked more like their 2010 selves. The only real mistake they made that year from a rebuild standpoint was keeping Capps.

[jokin]

Explain to me exactly who they could have gotten value for in 2011? They went from a 94 win team in 2010 to a 99 loss team that year. Their best chip would have been Baker, but its quite possible he wouldn't have passed his physical. I can understand the strategy given that it was quite possible that a lot of guys bounced back and looked more like their 2010 selves. The only real mistake they made that year from a rebuild standpoint was keeping Capps.

 

If you are interested, go back in the TD archives. I made an extensive proposal on upgrading the team with one-year deals for SPs, retaining talent like Kubel, getting rid of guys like Liriano, all leading to either an approximately identical payroll to 2011, or a slight increase to $120M. It would have been a lot of work and things would have had to fall right, but look what Boston did to remake themselves and quickly return to relevancy. It was worth a shot for a team with all the flexibility inherent in starting out in a new ballpark.

[The Wise One]

He was 'mocked' as you put it because he kept saying money was never the factor...that it was always the other issues that kept FAs away. I remember distinctly because when the discussion as to why FAs weren't coming here was going on, I wrote that money might also be a factor and he tore into that idea...even after I told him I didn't say it was the only factor, but could be a factor for some. He blew it off as impossible.

 

Brother I respectfully disagree with your recollection of your initial post. It might not have been what you intended to say, but it came accross as spend enough money and anyone will come to Minnesota.

[The Wise One]

If you are interested, go back in the TD archives. I made an extensive proposal on upgrading the team with one-year deals for SPs, retaining talent like Kubel, getting rid of guys like Liriano, all leading to either an approximately identical payroll to 2011, or a slight increase to $120M. It would have been a lot of work and things would have had to fall right, but look what Boston did to remake themselves and quickly return to relevancy. It was worth a shot for a team with all the flexibility inherent in starting out in a new ballpark.

 

Brother you did not provide a link to show your work?

Boston is going fine now. Wait a little while and see how well Boston is doing. The best thing that Boston did was hire Farrell who knew their pitchers.

[ThePuck]

Brother I respectfully disagree with your recollection of your initial post. It might not have been what you intended to say, but it came accross as spend enough money and anyone will come to Minnesota.

 

My initial post in that discussion was 'money might have also been a factor'

 

I guess if one really digs deep they might conjure up that means 'spend enough money and anyone will come to Minnesota. ', but as much of a stretch as that interpretation is, me clarifying it by saying that I was only saying that might be a factor for some free agents should have clarified what I meant and wouldn't have needed 2+ pages of continued, um, stuff..

[jokin]

Brother you did not provide a link to show your work?

Boston is going fine now. Wait a little while and see how well Boston is doing. The best thing that Boston did was hire Farrell who knew their pitchers.

 

It's in the Twins Daily archives from a year ago, not too difficult to track down if you're interested.

[glunn]

Please refrain from any squabble about what is or is not in the archives -- if it can easily be found then please post it, but let's not have post after post arguing about what might have been said.

[jokin]

Brother you did not provide a link to show your work?

Boston is going fine now. Wait a little while and see how well Boston is doing. The best thing that Boston did was hire Farrell who knew their pitchers.

 

I'm not arguing that what the Red Sox have done is, or will, be successful. It was the process they chose- I did argue that they reset their team with the clear intention to place themselves back in position to at least be competitive- in a division that will be up for grabs with all the Yankees woes.

[ThePuck]

'Please refrain from any squabble about what is or is not in the archives -- if it can easily be found then please post it, but let's not have post after post arguing about what might have been said. '

 

are we being told we can't talk about past debates now? Are the rules in here going to be consistently made up as we go along? Is someone being disrespectful while doing it, and if so, shouldn't that be the point addressed not telling people that they can't bring up what they said in the past in here?

[PseudoSABR]

IMO, it's always disrespectful (and lame) to ask other people to look up information that proves your point.

[drjim]

True, but we're talking about "rebuilding" and whether that HAS to be done entirely through your own minor league system. If you're rebuilding through your minor leagues, it's almost certainly a multi-year process, right? Can't you build through FA over the same time frame while hoping a couple of your minor leaguers turn into real assets, rather than the other way around? BTW, I sort of feel like we're having a side conversation in this thread, but I appreciate the discussion.

 

I appreciate this discussion as well, I think it is interesting to think of different ways to get out of the rut the Twins find themselves in.

 

I would respond to your points this way: I was thinking of all the teams in baseball right now that are relatively competitive and I would say that every one of them has a homegrown starting pitcher (which I define as drafted by or acquired while still in the minors) in a key role (with the possible exception of Toronto). I don't think this is an accident. Even teams like Detroit and Chicago, which are more aggressive in building teams through trades and free agency than most, are built on the foundation of homegrown starting pitching. I guess I will concede again that there could be other ways to do it, it doesn't HAVE to be that way, but it would be extremely difficult to do otherwise. It is indeed a multi-year process. I do think it is easier and more practical to build the majority of a lineup through free agency if for no other reason than more good hitters are available every year than good starting pitchers.

 

For the Twins I just don't see a practical way that they can shortcut this process at their current stage. They made the first step this offseason by trading assets for young pitching and I fully expect them to follow that up by drafting a pitcher and trading Willingham and perhaps Morneau for even more young pitching. As the young pitching starts to enter the majors it makes sense think about striking with a better free agent or perhaps to make a trade for an established pitcher with multiple years of control.

[glunn]

'Please refrain from any squabble about what is or is not in the archives -- if it can easily be found then please post it, but let's not have post after post arguing about what might have been said. '

 

are we being told we can't talk about past debates now? Are the rules in here going to be consistently made up as we go along? Is someone being disrespectful while doing it, and if so, shouldn't that be the point addressed not telling people that they can't bring up what they said in the past in here?

 

This is about not having more dumb squabbles about what was or was not posted, and yes I believe that it is disrespectful to tell someone to go search the archives for an author's ancient posts.

[jokin]

This is about not having more dumb squabbles about what was or was not posted, and yes I believe that it is disrespectful to tell someone to go search the archives for an author's ancient posts.

 

Neutrally-based question, Glunn. Would you agree or disagree that there is a level of rudeness and disrespect when someone begins an inane attack with embedded personal insults, and then inanely demands sidetracking, time-and-space-wasting and threadjacking links to details and simply can't accept the goodwill of the opposing presenter's premise to continue the friendly discussion- for friendly discussion's sake?- in particular when it is information that was widely disseminated and discussed just a short while ago.

[The Wise One]

Nothing wrong with short-term, high dollar deals if you are getting top talent. The Twins clearly overpaid for mediocre talent, is that even up for debate? Even Terry Ryan got defensive about his role in the signing in his February interview about Correia, laying it off pretty much on the "evaluators".

Other than someone signing with the Yankees, what top 10 ranked FA signed less than a three year contract? What is a top ranked FA

[johnnydakota]

Don't forget about Antony beclowning himself on the spring Rafael Perez signing:

 

"We've signed him to be a starter..... and he's fully healthy!!!"

 

Always remember and never forget , this is the clown that got drunk with nishis agent , and took tapes to Terry and Bill.....

[Guest USAFChief]

Neutrally-based question, Glunn. Would you agree or disagree that there is a level of rudeness and disrespect when someone begins an inane attack with embedded personal insults, and then inanely demands sidetracking, time-and-space-wasting and threadjacking links to details and simply can't accept the goodwill of the opposing presenter's premise to continue the friendly discussion- for friendly discussion's sake?- in particular when it is information that was widely disseminated and discussed just a short while ago.

I'm not Glunn (duh!) but do "neutrally-based questions" normally use the words inane, time-and-space-wasting, and threadjacking? And don't questions usually end with a question mark?