Game of Thrones

[diehardtwinsfan]

There is a wide gap between a straight ahead quest and Martin's scattergun approach. I've read the first three books, they're great and they do provide a lot of necessary and valuable context. I've also literally felt like I've read chapters that were utterly worthless.

 

Martin himself has admitted he started with a three book idea but gets "fascinated" with characters along the way and stops to admire them. Characters that have a minuscule chance of doing anything more than eating pages. It also has become obvious (and people tell me it becomes MUCH worse come book 4) that more and more time is spent on these cute deadends at the expense of the end-game.

 

Cute deadends would make great ancillary books. As part of the main canon they tend to stretch out what really matters and pretty soon rather than walking the straight path you forgot you headed the wrong direction for a year or two.

 

It was worse in book 4... took a while for it to develop. Book 5 on the other hand was much more too the point as it tied all of that up. I'm really hoping Winds of Winter concentrates more on the main characters and sticks more to action.

[TheLeviathan]

I guess I'm just not seeing the same deadends that you are. I've greatly enjoyed the additionally stuff brought it - the 100 extra characters someone else mentioned. To each his own, I suppose.

 

I think it's just appreciating the differences. The show is telling a better narrative. The books are building a more expansive and more interesting world.

 

The narrative isn't enhanced at all by 25 pages devoted to what some dude from some house that has no power had for dinner at a tournament 30 years ago. The narrative, IMO, suffers by such sidetracking.

[kydoty]

Personally I don't think he's going to finish the series at all. He's already 65, out of shape, and it takes him several years or more to complete the book, and is doesn't seem like he is capable of working in any way other than what he is comfortable with.

[Mike Sixel]

I cannot imagine anyone thinks he will finish

[Craig Arko]

Ok, yes, I follow Wil. Deal with it.

 

[TheLeviathan]

Ok, yes, I follow Wil. Deal with it.

 

 

That made me laugh, thanks for sharing.

[PseudoSABR]

Hey, as a kid I was a totally into TNG, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around how Wil Wheaton has any cache even among sci-fi circles; his character was a spoiled douche, and I hated him as a kid. Though Wil, seems like a amiable adult that hardly forgives his TNG performance.

[TheLeviathan]

Hey, as a kid I was a totally into TNG, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around how Wil Wheaton has any cache even among sci-fi circles; his character was a spoiled douche, and I hated him as a kid. Though Wil, seems like a amiable adult that hardly forgives his TNG performance.

 

Beverly was WAY more annoying. Short of the entire cast of Voyager she may have been the worst Star Trek character ever.

 

I always felt some of my Wesley hate stemmed from my much deeper hate for anything Beverly-centric.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Oh, come on people. Everyone knows Diana Troy was the annoying one in TNG.

 

TNG is a somewhat overrated series, IMO. DS9 seasons 4-6 were the best ST episodes ever created (unfortunately, a large part of the series is borderline unwatchable). TNG had a handful of great characters but they were counter-balanced by some pretty awful characters (O'Brien, Keiko, Troy, Beverly, Wesley).

 

And I think Enterprise was really underrated. Voyager was ****ing awful outside of Janeway, who was fantastic. TOS was kitschy and progressive for its time but doesn't hold up today.

 

In case you were wondering, yes. I have seen every episode of every ST series.

[TheLeviathan]

TNG is a somewhat overrated series, IMO. DS9 seasons 4-6 were the best ST episodes ever created (unfortunately, a large part of the series is borderline unwatchable).

 

I actually just went back and watched the Dominion-centric episodes of that series because I remember how much I loved that. I would completely agree with you. TNG was the most watchable front to back, but if you can pick and choose than DS9 is awesome.

 

I stand by Beverly Crusher being awful, even granting Troy being annoying.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I actually just went back and watched the Dominion-centric episodes of that series because I remember how much I loved that. I would completely agree with you. TNG was the most watchable front to back, but if you can pick and choose than DS9 is awesome.

 

I stand by Beverly Crusher being awful, even granting Troy being annoying.

 

I would agree that TNG is probably the most watchable front-to-back but I really enjoyed the bulk of Enterprise as well. I think the show received a raw deal with the writer strike and subsequent cancellation. How it handled the Vulcans was particularly interesting and it turned T'Pol from eye candy to the most interesting character on the show, a Star Trek first. Outside of Uhura and Janeway, by the end she was the most rounded and least annoying female character in the STU.

 

For being a progressive show, ST has a long list of truly awful female characters.

 

A couple of years ago I went back and watched all of Voyager. Damn, that show was horribly racist and boring. Chakotay as the spiritual Native American (UGH) and Torres as the fiery latina were particularly painful to watch.

[TheLeviathan]

I'll try and give Enterprise a shot, I never really did after Voyager.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Oh, come on people. Everyone knows Diana Troy was the annoying one in TNG.

 

TNG is a somewhat overrated series, IMO. DS9 seasons 4-6 were the best ST episodes ever created (unfortunately, a large part of the series is borderline unwatchable). TNG had a handful of great characters but they were counter-balanced by some pretty awful characters (O'Brien, Keiko, Troy, Beverly, Wesley).

 

And I think Enterprise was really underrated. Voyager was ****ing awful outside of Janeway, who was fantastic. TOS was kitschy and progressive for its time but doesn't hold up today.

 

In case you were wondering, yes. I have seen every episode of every ST series.

 

 

Enterprise is up on Netfix right now. I hadn't seen hardly any of it, and I watched all of it in a few months. The characters were pretty good. There wasn't a single character where you'd just want to skip an episode if it was centered on them. The overall plot was excellent as well and built a very nice back story. Agree completely that this one was underrated, as I thought it was the best series yet. Quite surprised it didn't run longer.

[Mike Sixel]

ST: seen them all, I think.......I agree on Beverly, not my favorite at all. I don't agree on Wil's character. I think his character was highly inconsistent, sometimes interesting, sometimes annoying. As for Troy, meh. There were times I liked that character, but mostly I could never figure out how she didn't know more of what was going on, given her abilities. Now that I think about it, her character was annoying. My biggest issue with that series was that all the characters were kind of blah, really.

 

Agree on Janeway, great character. I often found others in that cast annoying though, for some reason.

 

DS9 was the show with the biggest highs and lows, very, very inconsistent.

Enterprise struggled with the "prequelness" of its story, imo. But I thought it had promise.

 

It is hard to believe how long it has been since we had another ST on tv......

[diehardtwinsfan]

I actually just went back and watched the Dominion-centric episodes of that series because I remember how much I loved that. I would completely agree with you. TNG was the most watchable front to back, but if you can pick and choose than DS9 is awesome.

 

I stand by Beverly Crusher being awful, even granting Troy being annoying.

 

 

Yeah, I started watching DS9 on netfix and haven't made it out of the first season. It was pretty bad. I remember liking Voyager when it was running, but I just skipped to the end and watched the final episodes to see how they got home. That was kind of interesting.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Speaking of Wil Wheaton, what does everyone thing of his new Sci-Fi show?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yeah, I started watching DS9 on netfix and haven't made it out of the first season. It was pretty bad. I remember liking Voyager when it was running, but I just skipped to the end and watched the final episodes to see how they got home. That was kind of interesting.

 

Start in the third season. You will enjoy the hell out of the show and you won't miss anything worth watching.

[Brock Beauchamp]

As for Troy, meh. There were times I liked that character, but mostly I could never figure out how she didn't know more of what was going on, given her abilities. Now that I think about it, her character was annoying.

 

Troy was useless, which is one of my biggest problems with the character.

 

I yearned for the day when she'd squint her eyes and say "I sense hostility" after a first encounter over the com only to have Picard stand up, adjust his uniform, and just backhand her right there on the bridge.

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, I started watching DS9 on netfix and haven't made it out of the first season. It was pretty bad. I remember liking Voyager when it was running, but I just skipped to the end and watched the final episodes to see how they got home. That was kind of interesting.

 

You basically need to skip to the end of season 3 of DS9 - where they start to run into the Jem'hadar. Then the show picks up considerably.

 

(Edit....yeah...basically what brock already said)

[PseudoSABR]

You basically need to skip to the end of season 3 of DS9 - where they start to run into the Jem'hadar. Then the show picks up considerably.

 

(Edit....yeah...basically what brock already said)

DS9 really made use of narrative arcs spanning episodes and even seasons at the very end. While nearly all of TNG is stand alone episodes, DS9 moved towards a narrative structure that popularizes nearly all the successful shows. You can really see Ronald D. Moore's (Battle Star Gallatica producer/writer) influence as DS9 grows up.

[PseudoSABR]

I'll try and give Enterprise a shot, I never really did after Voyager.

Enterprise is good. It took me a while to get over the fact that it wasn't continuing into the future. But the characters and writing are probably more authentic than any other Trek show, though still very much trekkie.

[Brock Beauchamp]

DS9 really made use of narrative arcs spanning episodes and even seasons at the very end. While nearly all of TNG is stand alone episodes, DS9 moved towards a narrative structure that popularizes nearly all the successful shows. You can really see Ronald D. Moore's (Battle Star Gallatica producer/writer) influence as DS9 grows up.

 

True. Some amount of context for time period is needed for the shows. TNG came from the era of single episode stories. Just a few years later, DS9 was one of the first shows to start spanning seasons with story arcs (X-Files is probably the earliest and best example of this change in approach).

 

In today's time, DS9 holds up better because of this reason. Modern television is capable of so much more nuance than television of just 25 years ago. I rarely watched television as a child because even as a kid, I struggled with the lack of real consequence seen in television stories. Today, I watch more television than I do movies due to the capabilities brought by on-demand television and binge-watching. It allows television producers to create work with the subtlety and consequence of film, only they can do it over years and hundreds of hours of content. Breaking Bad is a shining example of such content.

[PseudoSABR]

Troy was useless, which is one of my biggest problems with the character.

 

I yearned for the day when she'd squint her eyes and say "I sense hostility" after a first encounter over the com only to have Picard stand up, adjust his uniform, and just backhand her right there on the bridge.

I love that episode where she loses her ability and Riker tells her off. I think it's called the Loss, but it's worth watching just because of how much the Jonathan Frazen (as Riker) seems to enjoy putting Troy in her place.

 

For such a supposedly progressive show, TNG had unforgivably dated women characters and plotlines. All the Geordi-centric episodes were god awful too.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Enterprise is good. It took me a while to get over the fact that it wasn't continuing into the future. But the characters and writing are probably more authentic than any other Trek show, though still very much trekkie.

 

And the theme song. Good lord, that theme song. Brilliant imagery presented over what might be the most atrocious lyrics ever put to music.

 

It's so bad that my wife and I still joke about it constantly, years after we watched the show. For a minute, we seriously considered walking down the aisle to that song because it would have been so damned hilarious.

[Craig Arko]

The final season of Enterprise was quite good, other than the horrible finale.

 

DS-9 was easily my favorite, suffering only in comparison to Babylon 5.

 

But DS-9 gave us Vic Fontaine and Morn, which elevates it.

[TheLeviathan]

I've always wondered if what made DS9 more successful at the narrative element was that it was a network staple as opposed to TNG's syndicated existence. (If I'm remembering that correctly that is)

 

Either way I appreciate the Enterprise advice. I let Voyager destroy my Trek watching and never gave it a fair shot.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The final season of Enterprise was quite good, other than the horrible finale.

 

Man, I was so disappointed that they weren't able to finish the story arc started in the fourth season. The show was cancelled at the wrong time and the network forced the producers to ham-handedly end the series with one of the worst finale episodes ever put on television.

[Mike Sixel]

Could have been worse, could have been handled like Firefly.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

Could have been worse, could have been handled like Firefly.....

 

Ugh. Just ugh. I'm not in love with Firefly like so many of my fellow geeks but it was a pretty good show that deserved a lot better than it received.

 

On that note, so did The Tick, which released during that same period but only made it nine episodes.

 

That show was freakin' hilarious. It deserved so much better.

[Mike Sixel]

I love Firefly. Some great, great characters. And some humor, and super dark moments.